What is the board's thoughts on the island of Takeshima?

Takeshima has always been Japanese. They are a group of islands/rocks in the Sea of Japan. During the ancient Shogunal era, emperors or enemies of the state where exiled to similar islands in the vicinity.

But after World War II, as the South Koreans also mobilized and tried to help the Americans liberate South Korea, they managed to get ahold of Takeshima and all other islands in the vicinity, renaming it Takdo.

Japanese citizens on the island have never been treated nicely, like on the Kuriles, and it has been overpopulated with Koreans.

Takeshima is as Japanese as Honshu. Like the Kuriles, it was occupied during a time of war but never returned after the country became peaceful again. The Koreans always use the fact that the Japanese colonial occupation killed millions of Koreans. I am not saying this is not true, it is very true, but in the modern world, land stolen from Japan should be returned to Japan.

What are your thoughts? Ogumo, you know I'm waiting for your reply.

Give me a break...and its Tok-do, by the way

It was never Japanese... nobody was ever exiled to those islets, nobody ever lived on them.

Japanese fishermen just used it as a stopping point way back

I guess you consider the islands as Japanese as the southern kuriles...

It was never stolen, it was always a recognized part of Choson.

It was never occupied during any war...it has been occupied by a small korean police force since Park Chung Hee's dictatorship administration.


DELETE!

oops. i meant during Rhee Syngman's administration.

No.

I never said that it was people were exiled to Takeshima. I said they were exiled to islands in the Sea of Japan, or the vicinity. Read carefully!

Furthermore, Takeshima are rocks, but they are Japanese territory. Unless you're an extreme Korean nationalist, you would not deny that it had been historical territory.They have changed hands a few times, but they were part of Japan.

I will find a website.

Here we go.

Takeshima 1

Takeshima2

Takeshima3

Takeshima4

Takeshima5

Takeshima6

If you want more proof, please tell me and I will just go to Google and if need be, ask my Japanese and History professors.

And please don't claim you know things without prooving them.And don't ever disrespect me or moderately insult me again without having proof that I'm wrong, all right?

god sakes.... you think those sites are not the least bias?! i will not waste my time looking at an argument on a site that ends in .jp and outright proclaims that Japan is the real owner of the islands.

there are hundreds of historians from neutral countries that ask korea to simply end this bickering to the international courts, saying that korea has almost 100% chance of winning, but as stubborn as koreans are they dont wanna take the slight chance.

Im not an extreme nationalist, by the looks of it you seem to stand out to me as an ignorant extreme nationalist who doesnt know the facts.

hell, i wont even bother searching, but korea's claims to Tok-Do/Takeshima go back to approx. 500-600 AD during the times of the ancient kingdoms of korea and not within the last century!

I believe japan should just let the koreans have this ridiculous island. Perhaps then they will leave us alone for a change. Because we all know that koreans will not give anything or sell anything to japan out of spite. So let them keep and in return they should leave us the hell alone about it.




I don't question that part at all. Do you have any links on the type of treatment they receive? It may come in handy for me later perhaps. In anycase I am sure they are not being tortured or anything like that.




Exactly. If japan wanted they could blockade the island saying no korean ships are allowed in. However that would just escalate the situation. I say again just let the koreans keep it and maybe they will shut up.



Indeed this is all they know how to talk about. The mistreatment and slaughter of the korean people was japan's biggest mistake. We will never hear the end of it. Japan needs to appologize to these people. Even then they would not except because they love to hate japan far too much. They have many double standards the koreans.



Of course. However no one cares about injustice dealt to japanese people. So forget about it. Just let the koreans keep the little island. It is nothing to get frustrated over. There are bigger things than that.

Ironic, isn't it other way around when bunch of japanese rightwingers sent to Dokdo/Takeshima to b!tch about it?

Ogumo: We hear a lot about Japanese colonial occupations and the attrocities cuz a lot of people that have lived thru those times still survive. It hasnt been too long ago, under a lifetime, were all just too young to know any better.

it's funny how some japanese talk like dokdo was theirs from the beginning of time, and say it like "here, we'll just give dokdo to korea since we are more generous." what a joke.

Tokdo is Korean territory.

Historically speaking, records show that Dokdo was administered by the Korean Shilly Dynasty at least from 512AD. Even the first Japanese written record on Dokdo, the Records on Observations in Onshu, published in 1667 admits this fact. There are also land surveys and maps that were drawn up throughout the ages that show the correct geographical location of Dokdo and show them as Korean territory. In addition to these Korean documents, there are also Japanese archival documents and maps made in the 1660s and 1770s, which clearly described Dokdo as Korean territory. In 1923, the Japanese Navy cited Dokdo as Korean territory in its publication, “Chosen Engan Suiroshi” (Korean Coastal Straits).

The historical evidence is enough to prove that Dokdo is Korean.

Let's take a look at some modern history.

Now, in terms of when Japan annexed Dokdo in 1905. They took over Dokdo for military purposes to set up a watch tower on it during the Russo-Japanese War. The Japanese say that the Korean side did not even protest against the annexation of Dokdo, but Korean documents clearly show that both the government and the people denounced and rejected the actions of Japan.

The Japanese, in their efforts to modernize and reform, pursued colonization and thus pressed outwards during their Meiji Restoration and thus annexed Korea and of course Dokdo. You'll probably mention that Korea was annexed in 1910 and that Dokdo was annexed in 1905. That is correct, but as your Asian history professor will tell you, Japan basically had countrol of Korea starting in the late 1890s and in the early 1900s where the Japanese began to acquire monetary rights, railway, mining and fishing concessions in Korea. Taking over Dokdo in 1905 was not a big problem for the Japanese, but in order to colonize Korea (you have to remember that Japan intended to permanently keep Korea colonized), Japan had to defeat the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War to solidify their influence and prove to everyone that Korea was theirs before officially taking Korea. Basically, with the defeat to the Russians and the defeat to China(1895) and the agreements Japan had with other European powers, Japan took Dokdo along with Korea in the early 1900s.

So what happened when the Japanese were defeated? Well, of course Japan had to give back all the territories it had aquired through violence and greed (remember the stipulation from the Cairo Conference?) BUT Japanese argued that it did not have to give back Dokdo because it was annexed in 1905 - not 1910 when Korea was annexed. Basically Japan's position is that the Cairo Conference does not apply to Dokdo. WRONG. The Cairo Conference required Japan to give back all land it had aquired through VIOLENCE AND GREED. Japanese violence and greed, as it applies to the Cairo Conference, started in 1895 when Japan won the Sino-Japanese war and seized the Liaotung peninsula, Taiwan and the Pescadores, which were restored to China after the end of World War II. The Cairo Conference requirement thus also applies to Dokdo, which Japan grabbed from Korea "by violence and greed" in 1905.

Furthermore, SCAP instruction #667 outlined which lands were Japanese and which were not and not surprisingly, Ullungdo, Chejudo and Dokdo were excluded from Japanese territory.

Anyways, all i'm saying is that Dokdo is pretty much Korean. The evidence is there and if you do some thorough research, you'll see gaping holes in the Japanese argument.

It was never Japan's to give in the first place, bro.

Ultra nationalistic Japanese like Ogumo, Barker, and Suzu should tour as a comedy troupe. There aren't many Japanese like them you know, so let's not get worked up with what those clowns write on anonymous internet message boards.

By the way, where in Japan are you from Ogumo? I understand you don't think too highly of people in Tokyo.

Ogumo, I'm sure Suzu is full of BS on this part. Dokdo/Takeshima has pretty much always been uninhabited and there has never been anyone to live permanently on the island. The only people to ever land on the island were fisherman who did not live there but rather used it as a waypoint. Even now the only presence is a South Korean coast guard station, the island is too small to be economically viable.

To say that Japanese citizens have been mistreated is a bit of a stretch... considering there have never been any there. :genius:

i guess some japanese never even saw how dokdo looks like. i think it's almost impossible for anyone to build houses and live there.

[quote=Rad Raz,Jun 9 2004, 11:46 AM] [quote=Ogumo,Jun 9 2004, 11:40 AM] So let them keep and in return they should leave us the hell alone about it.


[/quote]
Ironic, isn't it other way around when bunch of japanese rightwingers sent to Dokdo/Takeshima to b!tch about it? [/quote]
Wow such outrage that I have gotten from the korean memebers here. Unfortunately I do not really care.

Radraz:
Yes the right wingers need to leave the koreans alone. I hope they do not make or try to make another trip there.


CJK:
[quote]Ogumo: We hear a lot about Japanese colonial occupations and the attrocities cuz a lot of people that have lived thru those times still survive. It hasnt been too long ago, under a lifetime, were all just too young to know any better. [/quote]

Let me tell you something. I have nothing really wrong with the koreans talking about or being angry about the crimes japan commit against them. I will never argue with that. My problem is when they just through it back out when ever it is convienient for them. Just to get one up on japanese people.

MiSta MujiGe:

[quote]  it's funny how some japanese talk like dokdo was theirs from the beginning of time, and say it like "here, we'll just give dokdo to korea since we are more generous." what a joke. [/quote]

What is more funny is how the koreans actually believe that it is their right to have that land. I do not care if japan had the island for one month. It was under japanese control. Also I did not say to give it to the koreans out of generousity. I said they should be allowed to keep it so the koreans will shut up about the place. I dont care about generousity to anyone.Get it right.

RiverPlate4Life:

[quote]It was never Japan's to give in the first place, bro.  [/quote]

It belonged to japan before it belonged to korea.

[quote]Ultra nationalistic Japanese like Ogumo, Barker, and Suzu should tour as a comedy troupe. [/quote]

Korean tactic. Why is it when ever koreans disagree with japanese people they must accuse them of ultranationalism or racism? Support your comment about me or leave it alone. You are playing games now.

[quote]There aren't many Japanese like them you know, so let's not get worked up with what those clowns write on anonymous internet message boards.[/quote]

Correct. It is unfortunate that the majority do not share my view of things. However this is only because they are victims of the leftwing propaganda.

[quote]By the way, where in Japan are you from Ogumo? I understand you don't think too highly of people in Tokyo.[/quote]

I will pm you if you want. In anycase the phrase "does not really like" was not accurate. Good day.

ComradeJing:
[quote]Ogumo, I'm sure Suzu is full of BS on this part. Dokdo/Takeshima has pretty much always been uninhabited and there has never been anyone to live permanently on the island. [/quote]

This island was inhabited by japanese people.

[quote]The only people to ever land on the island were fisherman who did not live there but rather used it as a waypoint.[/quote]

Then it may be incorrect. I was always under the impression that fishermen actually lived there.

[quote]Even now the only presence is a South Korean coast guard station, the island is too small to be economically viable.[/quote]

To be honest with you I do not know much about the island except for random things. I know that the south korean coast guard is there. I dont know who else there though. In anycase you did make a good statement about that place being so small...

Muji:
[quote]i guess some japanese never even saw how dokdo looks like. i think it's almost impossible for anyone to build houses and live there. [/quote]

I have seen it. Just not photos taken from the air. Perhaps some of you can supply. I am too lazy to look. In anycase japan should just give up on this little place.

"Unfortunately I do not really care."

and yet, you still took time to reply to everyone's posts.

"I do not care if japan had the island for one month. It was under japanese control."

under your logic, then entire korean peninsula must be japanese property since japan colonized korea for few decades.

"It belonged to japan before it belonged to korea."

since when? care to give some actual facts?

Well I wasnt going to ignore them. That would be rude.



Not quite. Nice try though. Korea is inhabited country of it's own. For japan to rule over them would be imperialism. Now the takeshima was was uninhabited and in japan's territory.



Since 1905.

then who's territory was it prior to 1905?

At point some korean kingdom did own it years previously. They eventually collapsed or were conquered by another korean kingdom (silla?). After that they were just a stray island. Up until 1905 of course.

Thank you, Ogumo.

Well then, CJK, if you won't look at the bias because it has .jp after it, then I'm sure you will bring me an even more biased Korean site that has biased info about what Japan has done to Koreans on Takeshima.

Japan is in a spot because if it makes a claim on territory or utters its voice it will become bombared with claims that it is rearming itself.

Takeshima was Japanese territory, there is proof. Koreans owned it, but it always came into Japanese control after awhile.

^ I am not expert on the topic. I decided back in 1997 that this issue is petty. I saw pictures of this place years ago. It is just a BIG ROCK. That is what it looks like I think. I dont even know how the hell the south koreans have coast guard stations over there. In anycase the koreans can have the place.

dokdo was just a stray island after silla period?(668ad-935ad) you're saying dokdo was untouched for 1000yrs. as far as i know, dokdo was under chosun's jurisdiction(which was up until 1900) then became japanese property when japan annexed korea.

From what I understand yes. However I must admit that I am not expert on korean history. So it may have been another kingdom. I am also not a expert on this topic.



If it was the silla kingdom then yes. Dont get me wrong I am sure there was some minor contact but there could not have been to much. The japanese were interested in that island around the early 1700s and it was uninhabited at that point for sure.



Well if the koreans still did claim the island at that era. Then belongs to them by right and I cannot argue against that. However I am under the impression that they did not even care about the place at that point.

Did anyone access the sites i gave? it gives a history of takeshima basically.

as far as i see, the island switched hands between us and the Koreans for a few hundred years as a I time, and in 1948, Syngham Rhee extended Korea's water boundary to a certain boundary, which included takeshima.

fine its a rock. the koreans can have it. but what gets me and other young japanese nationalists kinda steamed is that whenever an issue like this comes up, there is large bias on both sides.

i am half japanese, but i love my country.

fine its a rock. the koreans can have it. but what gets me and other young japanese nationalists kinda steamed is that whenever an issue like this comes up, there is large bias on both sides.

Well thats never going to change. Infact this is not the case for only japan and korea. Many other countries are of course bias to their side. Personally I am not angered by the situation. I don't see it as something to be angry about.

well i dont think there were any territorial disputes like this back then.
the dispute over dokdo/takeshima became quite serious only recently.

I'm not really steamed either, but like I said, it just gets me mad that people deny that it was japanese territory.

It belonged to japan before it belonged to korea.

Going back to what Mistae posted, by your logic then Korea belongs to Japan.


Korean tactic. Why is it when ever koreans disagree with japanese people they must accuse them of ultranationalism or racism? Support your comment about me or leave it alone. You are playing games now.

I don't know where you got the notion that I'm trying to play games or thinking up tactics, but I find it pathetic that you would think so. There's this condition called projection, perhaps you're projecting your way of thinking to me, buddy.

To deny that you're a ultra-nationalist shows how much you're full of $hit my man. Your angry, passive aggressive threads you have all over the Japanese serious section speak for themselves.


Correct. It is unfortunate that the majority do not share my view of things. However this is only because they are victims of the leftwing propaganda.

Yes, for you, it would be unfortunate that majority do not agree as disagreeing is the reason why there are arguments and debates so... what's the point you're trying to make here aside from implying you're right and everyone should agree with you.

Strange thinking you have there, chief.

Not quite. Koreans had control over their contry before japan did.



I am not projecting anything on to you. You have a wild imagination.



Tell me what makes you say I am ultra nationalist? It is you that is full of $hit. Back up your ridiculous comment.




My threads all have a common theme. If you read one you have read them all. Re arm japan. Get the american military out. Disarm north korea of it's nuclear weapons by any means. By no way are these radical views. You are only seeing what you want.



You hit the nail on the head. I feel that the common way of thinking in japan is ridiculous. What I was implying is that it is unfortunate japanese do not all think like myself. If that was the case the american subservience would end.


Perhaps to you.

Ogumo can you provide something to support your assertation that there were Japanese living permanently on Tokdo/Takeshima. By Japanese I don't just mean a single lone hermit or fisherman, but rather a sustainable Japanese community. (e.g. 3 or 4 fishermen don't count, but a few families living there would)

I dont think that there could have been more than 15 people living on that place. I will check for something.

While you're checking, can you also check if Leprechauns exist? I'm dying to know.

i dont think anyone would want to set up a community on an island like this.

The islet isnt as small as you describe. The two major islands dont have much flat land, but its big enough for a small community; i dont know what they would sustain on cuz there isnt a sufficient amount of soil for crops. There's already a small wharf and helipad there. Furthermore, the importance of this island is not much for the land itself, but what it posseses under the law of the sea of over 50, 000 sq. km of resource rich ocean. Recently, Korea has placed a group of amateur radio operators to occupy the airwaves: http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectI...430E227951477EC

As for inhabitants, nobody has ever lived on the island. Ive never seen any text regarding any inhabitants in the islet's history.

Takeshima is an island that was Japanese territory. Fishermans would live there from time to time and go back to the mainland. Think of it as a hotel. It was a hotel for the fisherman, who would stay there and fish and go back. They are rocks, but htey are islands.

Take that b!tch.Try all websites.

http://boom.naver.com/SubSectionMain.nhn?i...060517205027617

http://boom.naver.com/SubSectionMain.nhn?i...050519220757873

http://cafe.naver.com/doa4.cafe?iframe_url...%3Farticleid=51


http://cafeimgs.naver.com/img/event/dokdo/1.jpg

http://cafeimgs.naver.com/img/event/dokdo/2.jpg

http://cafeimgs.naver.com/img/event/dokdo/9.jpg

Try the rest here A$$hole > >> > http://cafe.naver.com/235711.cafe?iframe_u...%3Farticleid=73

well, whether or not dokdo became a stay island after Shilla, it was still ours first

Dokto is already Korea's.

Tsushima should also belong to Korea. There are currently Koreans living there even today. Historically, Tsushima or Daemado has belonged to Korea.

http://search.hankooki.com/times/times_vie...17175210230.htm

Pretty much japan literally can't do a damn thing other than keep saying it's their property.

No one cares about the islands nemore.. old topic

However, Japan is in various island disputes with China, Korea and Russia.

Tokto/Takeshima

Kurile Islands

Diaoyutai Islands

June 19th is Daemado Day.

Daemado citizens make a lot of money from Korean visitors and tourists. Daemado citizens can make a lot of money on June 19th by holding celebrations dedicated to Daemado day.

Daemado Day was rejected by the South Korean Government

Daemado island is mainly a tourist economy. I will visit it one day. I hear the seafood there is delightful.

Who knows, maybe I have distant relatives there trying to visit home.

good

dang... I was doing some research on Daemado...

It seems that Daemado citizens celebrate the Arirang festival.

Korean and Japanese youth can come together and celebrate the Arirang festival together on Daemado Island.

If Daemado Day was upheld by the Daemado council, imagine how much money they would be making from all the visitors. It is not in the interests of Daemado citizens to shun their ancient ties to Paekche and Silla. With the global economy slowing down, Daemado citizens may be hard hit if tourism falls.

tsushimans celebrate arirang festival cool ~

japan can whine all day long, history says they are notorious looters and robbers. I guess the mentality can't die down even in modern society. sad and pathetic.

Takeshima belong to Japan. Only ignorant Asians think Takeshima belongs to Korea.

All info here:
http://www.mofa.go.jp/mofaj/area/takeshima/index.html

This is all I can be bothered to find at the moment.

Chronological Table of Takeshima

1618
The Oya and Murakawa households, part of the Hoki Clan, were granted special permission from the Edo Shogunate Government to land on Ulleung Island in order to fish. Abalone was often presented to the government. On the way to Ulleung Island they used Takeshima as a midway base camp, and also hunted and fished there. In addition, as late as 1661 Takeshima was leased to both households by the Edo Shogunate Government

1696
After negotiations between Japan and South Korea over the fishing waters surrounding Ulleung Island, it was decided by the Edo Shogunate Government that visits be prohibited. However, visits to Takeshima were permitted.

1849
The French whaler, Liancourt, discovers Takeshima.

September 29, 1904
Yozaburo Nakai submits a request to the three Ministries of Interior, Foreign Affairs, and Commerce and Agriculture Affairs to incorporate the Ryanko Islands (Takeshima) as a territory and to lease them out.

January 28, 1905
Takeshima is officially named during a cabinet meeting, and is put under the jurisdiction of the Oki Islands, Shimane Prefecture.

February 22
The Governor of Shimane Prefecture announces the naming of Takeshima and the office of its jurisdiction in the 40th Shimane Prefecture Report.

May 17
Takeshima, Shimane Prefecture, is entered in the State Land Register for Oki-no-kuni, District 4.

June 5
The Governor of Shimane Prefecture grants approval for Yozaburo Nakai and three other people to hunt sea lions.

July 22
Thirty-eight naval workers land on Takeshima and construct a large temporary signpost for passing ships.

August 19
Bukichi Matsunaga, the Governor of Shimane Prefecture and three aids inspect Takeshima aboard the naval vessel Kyoto Maru.

March 1906
Yo$hitaro Kaminishi, the Director of Shimane Prefecture, Division 3, and 43 staff members implement a survey of conditions on Takeshima.

April 24, 1939
The decision to incorporate Takeshima under the jurisdiction of Goka Village is made by the Goka Village Assembly in Oki-gun, Shimane Prefecture.

August 17, 1940
Public use of Takeshima, Shimane Prefecture, is terminated and designated for naval use under the name of Maizuru Naval Station.

November 1, 1945
Takeshima falls under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Finance after the elimination of the Naval Ministry.

January 18, 1952
President Lee Seung-man of South Korea declares unilateral ocean rights and announces that Takeshima is included within the Lee Line (the Lee Seung-man Line Declaration).

June 27, 1953
Shimane Prefecture and the Japan Coast Guard carry out an inspection of Takeshima, order six South Koreans to leave the island, and erect a wooden territorial signpost.

September 25, 1954
The Japanese Government proposes to South Korea that the Takeshima dispute be referred to the International Court of Justice.

June 22, 1965
The Japan-South Korea Basic Treaty is signed, and Takeshima is recognized as an area of dispute.

1965 to 1976
The Governor of Shimane Prefecture requests that the government secure the territorial rights of Takeshima under the joint signature of the Chairman of the Prefectural Assembly.

March 19, 1977
The Shimane Prefectural Assembly resolves to attain the territorial rights of Takeshima and secure safe operations.

April 27
The Shimane Prefecture Committee for the Promotion of Resolving the Takeshima Issue (Promotion Committee) is established.

1977 to 1995
The Promotion Committee pressures the government to attain territorial rights of Takeshima and secure safe operations.

March 11, 1987
The Shimane Prefecture Citizens' Committee for the Return of Takeshima and Northern Territories is established.

1982~Present
Requests made to the government to place priority on establishing territorial rights and to secure the safety of the fishing industry.

March 15, 2004
The Shimane Prefectural Assembly officially adopts a written statement concerning the establishment of a "Takeshima Day" ordinance and makes submission to the national government.

October 25~26
Request for enactment of "Takeshima Day" made to national government.

March 16, 2005
The Shimane Prefectural Assembly, supported by a majority, officially passes the "Takeshima Day" Ordinance.

March 25
Promulgation/ enforcement of the "Takeshima Day" ordinance by the Shimane Prefectural Government

Shut up 왜넘!

獨島는 우리땅!!!