why theres some people playing with racial issues? what is the point? what do they wanna prove? how to put a stop for such thing?

There is no way to stop it.. Its because of the human nature..

Adam + Hawa(eve) = africans,arabs,european,chinese,indians,malay..etc
why do we keep on fighting with each other? we are all the same..

We are the same species no doubt.

But unfortunately, our genes are selfish-oriented and gives us the instincts to go for kin-selection. Kin selection can be explained like this, given a choice to save a friend/relative/fellow malay or chinese OR a stranger from drowning, we would always choose the person we know to save because it is expected of us. And we also expect a reward or obligation from those whom we have helped. Compared with a friend/relative/fellow malay or chinese, a stranger would be too much of a gamble to save.

Kin selection has become diffused in some ways. Because our little kampong has now evolved into a globalised kampong, we interact with more strangers in our lives now and therefore we will tend to choose to act in favour of our clan, tribe and countrymen based on either racial or religious or cultural background lines.

We are all the same species, but it is the lack of trust is what drives us to discriminate between the races who we want as our allies or enemies.

The best way to overcome the innate lack of trust is TRADE. There's nothing like a successful transaction where both parties feel they have understood the other's culture/mentality. Successful trading relationship builds trust.

So, I really dig the Islamic rules on trade. Whereby honesty, integrity and no usury is encouraged. But in reality, the Islamic code of honor is not easy to maintain all the time when we come across cheaters. Once in a while, force may still have to be used to redress the equilibrium. But if we know the end game is trust, we should maintain our reputation and behave in honorable ways.

Dude did you grow up in a bomb shelter and this is the first few days you were have been out?

all the thing u said about "kin-selection" is correct.. maybe thats the main point, but i dont think that discrimination is about lack of trust.. it could be because of power n status.. and Trade doesnt sound quite right, because the trust from that is not permanent.. i think religion is the biggest effect that would unite people..




what do u mean?

If history is anything to go by, religion has been one of the main divisive factors of the human race, especially divisive between different ethnicities.

Problem is that the 2 largest religions in the world often have a concept of triumphalism: concept of exclusive righteousness. i.e. "We have God on our side. We are holy. We will be Saved. Anything and everything outside of this is wrong, evil, unholy, misguided."

When a religion has such a worldview, it is the "biggest effect" that starts people discriminating against one another.

Of course the trust from a trading relationship isn't permanent, because it's precisely our selfish instinct to 'defect' once in a while and see if we could get away by cheating on the other.

The trust from a religious relationship however may seem permanent, but guess what? It's precisely our selfish instinct again to divide ourselves from the unbelievers, and attempt to bring them under our fold by word if not then by sword.

Unfair and discriminatory behavior in trading relationship can be ironed out by a framework of laws and enforcement procedures to bring fairness to the aggrieved party. But in a religious relationship, you cannot help it but you can't win the minds and hearts of the other party. You can only hope to live side-by-side despite the differences, and create trust within trading framework.

Power n status goes hand-in-hand with trading power. If you have more power to determine the nature of your trading relationship with lesser folks, you are perceived by the lesser folks as being more powerful in status.

Religion doesn't automatically give rise to power and status. It is trade and wealth that give rise to those notions.

so what do u mean here is law enforcement, isnt it?? i dont quite understand about 'trade' whether it got anything to do to stop discrimination..


You're wrong about religion, it actually a guide for us to be a good person.. and i can say as muslim myself we are urged by our religion to respect others no matter what religion or race they are..
its not about being the best and the richest in the world but only to be the simplest person in everything in our life (Power n status only contribute to discrimination..) everything that we have now is only temporary.. what matters now is the ticket to heaven..

Flashback to our biological nature.
Survival of the fittest.....
Each of us subconciously as human-animal try to protect and maintain our genes, even in the expense of other's. But I believe human is more than that, we can develop love, be benevolent and virtue.

fadlee, your avvy says you live in Israel? well, to illustrate what i mean when i say 'trade' would increase 'trust' and lessen discrimiination, let's take Israel's relationship with the Arab nations. There's absolutely no trade between them. When a fren flew to Lebanon last summer, she said the map of Israel was blanked out even on the Emirates Airline in-flight tv. There are no roads leading to Israel, no passport control nothing.

On the other hand, Israel has imposed a very controlled trade embargo on the Palestinians in Gaza Strip, as a primary means to stop arms from flowing into the population, but at the same time, deepening the economic crisis of the Palestinian folks and engendering the hatred and deep distrust.

With Lebanon, Israel's IDF sought to knock out the major infrastructure of this budding nation to destroy its economic fortunes. These are actions which do not engender trust and create only in the minds of the victims a deeper outrage and racial discrimiination against the Israeli peoples and their perceived supporters.

The USA not only is one of Israel's biggest trading partners (after the EU) but also largest aid contribution. This massive aid contribution suggests that their relationship is no longer based on a partnership relationship, but rather 'unconditional' and 'unstinting' trust.

We don't need to be too academic or philosophical about these political relationships. Many muslims nations, if not all, do not trade with Israel nor have an open diplomatic channel. It is a sign of discrimination. You only trade with those you can trust or have no hatred against. Right?





Of course religion can guide us to be a good person. But does religion and the ticket to heaven help you to trust and not discriminate? I actually feel religion is more divisive in this respect. It makes one think along the lines of 'us' against 'them'.

Juz my two centavos..

P/s - Power n status may contribute to discrimination, but we normally do not discriminate on racial lines when we are rich and powerful in an easy trading environment where we are fairly certain that what we give in exchange will be reciprocated openly and transparently.

What motivates discrimination then? Only when we are in a difficult trading environment, do we resort to discrimination. And such difficult trading environment can be caused by politics and extreme stance on nationalism & religion. Not trading with someone is not a cause of discrimination, but rather a symptom and result of the discrimination.

The problem with the world's tradiing system is that it is not completely open and transparent at the moment. The international frameworks for settling border and trade disputes are not fully transparent. We can say some of the rich and powerful are deliberately creating a difficult trading environment so that discrimination can still be carried out, that way unequal distribution of wealth and resource on this planet will continue to take place.

That's why after the Cold War, we will need another type of 'Cold War' in order to have this unstable environment persists. Peace will never be a feature of our lives, as long as they are difficult trading environments all over the world.

u cant take that as an example its a different situation.. take malaysia for instance, we trade with the US but still we never trust them and does not acknowledge their policy.. trade doesnt actually help anything its only the way to improve our lives..


learn the fundamentals of the religion and you will know that the people is the one who contradict from the teachings of their religion for the reason of power, status and wealth..

So you are still of the view that religion will engender the missing 'trust' between peoples of all races and cultures instead of open and transparent trade? The problem I have with this is that I meet religious people from all backgrounds, and guess what? They still behave contrary to their religious teachings and discriminate.

What can you say about that? That the fundamentals of their religion aint' right? So which religion's fundamentals are more right than the others? Won't we just become divisive again arguing about the fundamentals?

Why don't I just push aside religion and sell you some of my marvellous kueh lapis instead? And you sell me your mee bandung? We'll just have a great time together makan instead?

yes.. just like i said earlier trade is the way to improve our lives which is a different context to stop discrimination.. but still you have your own opinion and i respect that.


Its not the fundamental of the religion but the people who misinterpret the fundamental of their religion.. if you wanna know which religion preach to the right path, study all of em then compare.. you will know the answer.. may god be with u haha..


aiyark! eating sounds nice..


is that true? i sense a more political agenda than a way to improve ourselves..

did anyone know the answer?



its the people... theres nothing wrong with religion..

there's only one way how to deal wit these ppl...

I guess you mean George W Bush and Bin Laden, right?

Everyone dats bad.

You asked for these questions, so what are the conclusions you have arrived yet?

What causes racism? You said it's got to do with power n status. I say it's unbalanced trading power.

How to put a stop fr such thing as racism? You said it's religion which can help put a stop to racism, but if this is so, religion has been around since time immemorial, why hasn't racism been stopped? Why do people always deviate despite there being religion?? I say it's our instincts such as kin selection that causes us to discrimiinate not just based on race, but on religion too.

Fadlee, even when we have gone through the fundamentals of all religions, if we still arrive at the conclusion that one religion's fundamental stands above all others, we have totally failed to understand these fundamentals and have in fact, ultimately capitulated to our natural instinct to discriminate. Agree?

can you explain futher..? i'm really interested to hear that.. thanx abang..

I like it when u call me abang! I feel like you are my girlfren sitting at the back of my scooter!!

Well, let's not get too carried away with the big picture of how the cause of discrimination/racism is caused by unbalanced trading power. Just think small village scene.

When we are powerful, we discrimiinate against those who are weaker and can be taken advantage of. When we are weak, we discriminate against those who are even weaker and take advantage of them. But we suck up to the rich and powerful, hoping for some benefit to come our way. The weakest will never rise up to form a revolution, it will be the middle class ones who think they can overthrow the richest so that they can commandeer the trade benefits.

The balance of trading power is always rising and falling, no one family nor country will always stay rich and powerful forever. There is always a rise and fall.. it's the nature of life.

Discrimiination can't stop in life, we will always calculate at the back of our minds who we should trust and who we want to exchange our resources while discrimiinating others. Not even religion can stop discrimination.

This kind of mental calculation is hard-wired in our brains. But if we understand this instinct, we can try to overcome it. Like if I win my toto prize this weekend, i will try to share it with my AF forummers here and buy them airtickets to nairobi for a safari...

*Ehem* It's kakak.

I find it rather disturbing tha Malaysian opposition also play the racial cards to appeal certain segments(or race) of Malaysians to vote for them. Malaysiakini and Malaysia Today stink of it.

caramel, i believe it will be a long time before we see a very good opposition party that would appeal to all Malaysians. If that does not happen, I pray for a very stroong general to become poweful in MAF and do a military coup....

I know that la. .. just trying to manja-manja with her..

sorry to say: racisim will never die, itll be here forever....its how life goes...

I don't know how you view this but haviing lived here in East Africa where the minority races are european whites and punjabi indians, it seems alot easier to run a country when it is the chinese who are in the minority, for they are practical hardworkiing people and a good bunch of traders generally.

If their trading prowess allowed them to stay engaged in the country, they would stay, but if not, they would leave to foreign shores. Most of the Msian chinese who left are professional class of skilled workers, not so much the businessmen and traders, am I right?

Do u think a good opposition party can only come from a multiracial secular platform or a monoracial religious platform? Or monoracial secular or multiracial religious platform rather?

Did i juz lose u there.....??

so, what are you gonna suggest here abang..?

Trade! Increased trade. Locally, the indians and white folks do not trade with the africans, all the trade is done between themselves or with overseas markets. Only the elite kenyans get a slice of the economic pie. There is a burgeoning middle class of kenyans coming up, but that's only because the South Africans are coming in big-time with their post-apartheid capital to build multinational presence here. The South Africans are like the Japan of Southeast Asia, the engine of growth for this continent. But South African government is following the same affirmative discrimination policies as malaysia. It remains to be seen if the government can hang on to the 'trust' of their own class of capitalists, even if they are white capitalists.

That's the same with malaysia, whether your government can hang on to the 'trust' of your non-malay capitalists. A good and capable government should be able to do that no matter what. And over a larger spread of capitalists, not just the cronies and towkays of public listed corporations.

And obviously multiracial secular platform is less likely to discriminate than a monoracial secular/religious platform lah! What say u?

If the fundamentals of the religion preached to respect others no matter the person is no matter what race, religion, status they are? would that create discrimination?

Let me ask u this , all religions preach exactly this to respect others no matter their race, religion, status... does this really and truly stop you from discriminating instinctively?? Be honest please...

as bad as i am, never in my life i discriminate others.. u can take my word on that.. (common sense + religion)

This is what religion does to you : u think u are not instiinctively prone to discrimination, but it creeps up on you and bites you in the @$$!! The discrimination, that is...

haa? what does that mean? lol..

IMO, most rich Chinese in Malaysia stay because they've established good business here where they have relatively few competition. I agree with ur opinion that skilled chinese workers migrate to countires where their skills maybe fully appreciated.

I cannot make my mind whether multi-racial political parties make good opposition because most multi-racial parties in Malaysia like Gerakan and DAP ended up being dominated by an exclusive race while the only truly multiracial political party(correct me if I am wrong), PRM failed miserably in attracting votes and their cause for equality diminished when they join the BA alliance.

BN is to a large extent a multiracial secular party, but it's being dominated by the 3 major component parties which oriented towards Malaysia's 3 largest ethnic groups. BN was indeed an impressive multicultural alliance during it's early years where Malaysian voters would willingly vote for any BN candidates regrdless of race.However, thing's have changed and u can see how BN is now....

BTW, what is a multi-racial religious platform? Is PAS one?

Again.. PKR = Parti Keadilan Rakyat..

Is that Anwar's wife's party in Penang? What kind of background n support they got?

u referring to PRM samheisfl? I was referring to Parti Rakyat Malaysia .

Last election PKR failed miserably, winning only one seat in Penang and Lunas,Negeri Sembilan.IMO,PKR is quite similar to PRM, only that it has powerful leaders like Anwar Ibrahim and his wife. PKR generally receive good support from Malaysians and not oriented towards a certain race. Most of its leaders are young and come from various multi-cultural background. So PKR appeal to young Malaysians who think BN is being dominated by too many old people .

Apparently, PKR won the Lunas election due to Chinese vote. The loss of Lunas was quite a blow to BN coz it's an industrilized area with many middle income Malaysians.And BN always though such areas were their strongholds.

PKR and major opposition parties performed poorly in 2004 due to the Badawi feel good factor and people dun feel too good about him anymore. .BN gonna have tough time in next election.

Hmm... so far, they really show us that PKR isn't a single race party..

President Malay
Secretary Chinese
and so on..

n Anwar claimed that its gonna be a Bangsa Malaysia party.. for me, the idea is great.. but not many people want to support this party though..

actually if I compare the msian chinese who stayed behind to trade with those european and indian descendents here, I think msian chiinese contribute helluva lot more to the nation building and technological know-how expertise than the white and indian kenyans here. Most of Kenya's infrastructure were built in the colonial days and when the Kenyans took over, the infrastructure was left largely to rot. No new skyscrappers have been built since the 70's when the euphoria of black millionaires and their pride to build ended. Most european and indians have retreated to areas of businesses where they protect their turf with tooth and claws from outsiders to come in, or they pay off their corrupt cronies in the Kenyan elites. The market here has shrunk tremendously. There is no way for indigenous people to gain access to capital to start up any business here. The towns and cities and villages have remained the same for decades with no investments. The only reason why Nairobi remains significant is the fact that it has the UN operational HQ here and it's the hub for all humanitarian emergency work in the Horn of Africa.

Any kenyan who is educated abroad and skilled will not return to this stagnant domestic oligarchic economy.

I know a few kenyans though who work with the UN. They often compare their country to Msia, because of the similar large rural population and concentrated urban areas. They lament the fact their 'big man mentality' had led to their elites having hijacked all benefits comiing from the initial years of affirmative action policies. Nothing has been done to encourage the working and middle classes to be part of the economic and trading landscape. In fact, a brain drain has already serously haemmoraged the country's economy for years now. It is going backwards rather than forwards.

These Kenyan professionals admire the Msian model alot, but they think the difference lies in the fact that the minorities are chinese and not european or indians. Somehow, they think the msian chinese have more stake in the nation building, and a concrete Msian identity.

Ask any european or indian here if they are Kenyan, they will tell you they are Kenyan but they hold a British passport or from wherever else, not a Kenyan passport.

Yeah...It seems PKR lost a cause when Badawi freed him.....

PKR is gonna extinct like a dodo soon enuff.

BTW, to answer the thread's topic, a few forummers, especially non-Malaysians, likes to play fire .... by stirring these sensitive issues.

They, like most nerdier types closeted in sardine-like-flats with no life out there have nothing better to do.

Pity those suckers ... I really do.

Proto

This thread has the following posters:

fadlee
samheisfl
centurion
majapahitan
aran
forrestcat
and me

Which non-Malaysian are you referring to who likes to play with fire? And who are you referring to as the nerdiert types closeted in sardine like flats with no life?

Whoever it is I have been tasked with my men to hunt them down!

Firstly, I'm generalising to some posters, especially non-Malaysians that have nothing better to do than posting sensitive issues regarding Malaysia & provoking us. You & I know who that posters are.

As to those playing with fire aka nerds closeted in flats, you knowlah ol' Malay proverb: Sapa makan cili terasa pedasnya ...

Aiyo...stick to your chili pedas and quiet life in the kampung la, mat. Find it in your heart to have compassion for the sardine closed folks la... they miss kampung life too you noe???

Yah-la, then there are also some posters who don't really care about how 40% of the population is treated, behave like ostriches with their heads buried in the sand, either don't know or don't care. You & I know who those posters are.

my sardine is not too bad....I got 5 bedrooms with 4 toilets.....a big swimming pool for adult and a big swimming pool for kids....I got 3 tennis courts, 5 BBQ pits, a sauna room, a gym, and securities as well...and if I sell my place...I get to buy 3 bungalows in Perth with a very own swimming pool....so my sardine taste bloody nice

How many kampungs can you buy in msia with your sardine can? I may do just that...

how did u guys got out from hell?? huahaha

please stop all those racial nonsense..
one love ya'll..