Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Inquiry on the Ancestry of the Vietnamese People

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Sirikittong

Aug 18 2006, 08:04 PM

An AF member, by the name of Joost Leaki has claimed that the vietnamese people are similar to the Khmer people, in his clandestine post. I must apologize for my ignorance on the Vietnamese origin, am here to ask the vietnamese posters about the origins of your people.

Without relying too much on wiki, please give me your personal insight.

Thank You so much for helping me on this inquiry.

-Siri

QUOTE

viets came from the same group as khmer, so save your ignorance.

This classification is based on Diffloth's widely cited 1974 Encyclopedia Britannica article.

Eastern
Khmer (or Cambodian) in Cambodia, southern Vietnam, and northeastern Thailand (15 to 22 million)
Pearic in southern Cambodia.
Bahnaric in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos
Katuic in central Laos
Vietic in Vietnam (66 to 73 million speakers)
Many have questioned the inclusion of Pearic so close to Khmer.
Northern
Khasic in Meghalaya, India.
Palaungic in the upper Salween, Sino-Burmese border, northern Thailand
Khmuic in northern Laos
Mang in Vietnam and China
Palyu in China
Mang and Palyu were not known when the original classification was made.
Southern
Monic in the lower Salween, Burma (1 million).
Aslian in peninsular Malaysia, split into three groups, Jahaic, Senoic and Semelaic.
Nicobarese on the Nicobar Islands.
Unclassified These languages were not known when the original classification was made
Bugan in China
Buxinhua in China
Kemiehua in China
Kuanhua in China

Austro-Asiatic
Mon-Khmer
Bugan bo 55 bio 31 mtse 31 pau 33 mi 33 pio 33 pou 31 sã 33 s;i 33 mã 31
North
Viet-Muong
Sino-Viet. nhâ't nhi tam tú' ngu~ luc thâ't bát cu|'u thâp
Proto-Viet-Muong+ *moc *hal *pa *pon *?dâm *khâw *pây *t'am *cin *mïel
Vietnamese môt hai ba bô'n nâm sáu ba|y tám chín mu'ò'i
Saigon mok. hay ba bóng nâm s,áw bây tám cín mï`y
Muong môc5 hal2 ba2 bôn3 tam2 khaw3 baj4 sam3 cin3 mu'o'l1
May (Ruc, Chut) moic hal pa pón dâm ráw pa,^,.)y thám cín mièy
Thavung (Aheu) muut haal paa póon dam phalu? pih sáam cíin sip
Tay Pong (Hung) motj hal? pa pôn dhâm prâu pal sam chin mal'
Arem mutj hel' pe puôn dhâm prau po' tha|m chín mu'o'i
Khasi
Khasi wey ?aar laay saaw san hnriw hnñew phra khndaaw khat
Amwi mi o la siá san thrau ynthla humphyo hunshia shipho
Palaungic
East
Palaung u: e:r u-a:i p'o:n p'an to:r pu:r ta: t'i:m kö:r
Rumai hle a2 oé2 p'Un2 p'an2 to2 pu2 ta2 tiim2 ky2
Danau a àn wi po:n tho tun pei-ut tsìm tsen mà-kyen
Riang håk ka:r kwai k`pwon ka:u twàl pul pretà tim s'kàll
West
Lamet mus ar lohe pun pan tal pul ta tim kel
Khamet muei la-a la-oi pôn pan tol pool toh teem kel
Plang (Kontoi) keti?2 la?al1 la?oy2 lepun1 lephon1 leh2 hereh1 seti?1 setem1
Tai-loi ka-ti là-òl là-oi pun pàn
Kem Degne té la loye póne hone lè halè leti setine koul
Wa tä ra: loi bun puån lich a:lich sìtä' sha:tim kau
Lawa teh la-a la-oei pa-erng puan laeh a-laeh staik staing kua
La (Vo) t'ie ra loi pon p'wan lie a-lie tai tim kow
Phalok (Parauk) ti a: o|i bon pün li ali di dim ko|
Son te: à oi wun pu-on lu-à à-lu-à dai dim kau
En tai rà loi pun pàn liâ à-li-erh pin-dai dim ko
A Mok mo a: we: pun s`en tàll n`pwi n'tà n'tum n'kyu
P'uman yi erh san p'un sa t'ao p'ua t'a t'i ch'ao
Pou Ma leun song sam si ha hok tiet piet kao sip
Hu ?amò ka?à ka?òy ?aphòn pathán
Khmuic
Khmu' mò:j pà:r pé? púen há: hók cét pét káw síp
Mal meie-lae piar paeh pôn piatee piapaeh jed piapon kao maehlach
Puôc môt biêl pe pôn
Mrabri damoi baer paeh pôn terng tán kool teeh gas gul
Yumbri (neremoy) (nakobe)
East
Katuic
So muai ba: bai pon so'ng tapet tapu:n tako:n take machhit
Bru muoi bar pái poun sau'ng tapoât tapul takual takêh muoi chít
Van Kieu muôi bar pâi pôn so'n tapât tapu:l takuôl takê: macu':t
Suei moi bar pa:y pon so'n tapat tapol tagol tagè mui jit
Na Nhyang muei bar pei puo:n chung thpak thpol thkol thke muchit
Kuy mu:j bi:a paj po:n su:ng thepha:t thepho:l thekhual thekheh ncut
Tareng moi bar bè puan son pat po:l ko:l khiè michet
Pacoh môi bar pe poan xông tapát tapôl tacol takih muchít
Katu mij ?be:r pe puon su:ng sepat tepal teka:l tekieh meghet
Kantu moi bar be: puan son tapat tapol tako:l takhie michet
Ong móoy báar pæ'æ púan tpat
Ngeq mo'yq baar pe puo'n so'o'ng tapu'at tapôôl takool takieh mo'chit
Khmer
Old Khmer+ muuej Biier pii puuen pram pram muuej prem Biier prem pii prem puuen tap
Khmer múuej piir bèej bùuen pram pram múuej pram py'l pram bèej pram bùuen dap
Bahnaric
South
Stieng muôi baar pê puôn pram prau poh phaam sên jo'mo't
Chrau muôi var pe puôn prâm prau pôh pham su'n mât
Biat mwoj bar pee puen pram praw poh pham cin jit
Ko'ho dul bar pe poan prâm pro poh pham su'n jô't
Sre dùl bàr pe pwan pram praw poh phàm sin jet
E Mnong ju bar pây puân prâm prâw poh pham sîn mât
C Mnong ngwây bar pe pwân prâm prâw po'h pham sîn jô't
West
Loven muai bur^ pae puan sang tr^ao poh thaam chiin chet
Lave mui bar^ pae puan sing tr^ao poh thaam chen chit
Sapuan muuj baar pee puan seeng traw pah thaam cin jit
Cheng muuj baar pee pan seeng caw pah thaam cin cit
Suq (Sou) muuj baar pee poon seeng traw puh thaam cin cit
Nyahöñ muei ban pê puon so'ng trôu pah tham chin chit
Oi mui bar^ pae puan sing tr^ao pah thaam chin chit
Brao mui baar pê puon chhéng trau pos tham cheu chet
Krung 2 muuj baar pee puan cheeng traw pah thaam ceen cit
Lavi mooj piar pee poon syyng traw pyh thaam ciin cet
Central
Bahnar miñ bar2 pêng3 puan bo'dam to'drou to'po'h to'hngam1 to'sin po'jit
Alak moei bar pei po:n dâm tahrâu poh ham chin jit
Tampuan maoñ paeng pwan petam trao timpaoh tinghaam ñchin tsit
North
Cua mui bar pe pon po'qdam ko'drôu kapoh tho'm sin ku'l
Rengao môi' bâr2 pê'3 pôn2 bo'dam to'drô to'po'ih to'hngam1 to'chin bo'jo't
Jeh muih bal pei puan po'dâm to'drau to'pèh to'ham to'chin jãt
Halang moi bat pe puan dam tarau tape pham chin ajiat
Sedang moi péa pái pún petám tedróu tepah tehéam tochen moi chat
Hrê mo:yq bayq piq pun padam tadràw tapèh nahim hachìn hajàt
Didra (Todrah) muèyq bia pi pudn padabm dadrue tapê`yh nihiam tachìdn jèt
Modra muê`y bar pi pudn padâp tandru tapèyh tahim tachìt jâ`t
Pearic
Pear mo:y pa: phe:k pho:n phram kedo:ng kenu:l keti: kensa: kenga:y
Bolyu ma:i 31 mbi 55 pa:i 55 pu:n 53 me 31 pju 53 pei 55 sa:m 53 s;en 53 ma:n 13
Samre mooy paar phee phoon pram kadang kanuul kentey kensaor raay
Chong moj bar pe? poon pram kadoong kaanuul kaatii kaasaal rai
South
Monic
Old Mon+ moy ?bar pi? pon msun terow dempoh dencam dencit cos
Mon mòa ?ba poe? pon peson kerao hepoh hecam hecit choh
Nyah Kur mùay baar pii? pan chuun traw mpoh ñcaam ñciit cas
Aslian
Semang
Che' Wong nôi bêi pet pôn limeh nem
Kensiu nay duwa? tiga? ñam
Kenta' Bong nay bye
Mos nai komam fobieh awah uibem mampoh
Jehai ney dwa? tiga? impat (lima)
Menriq nay dewa? tiga?
Bateg Deh ney tiga?
Bateg Nong nay duwa? tiga?
Mintil sa? pusing tiga?
Senoic
Semai nano na:r ni ampa:t lima: anam tudju
Temiar né nál nè ampat lima anam tujuh lapan sambilan né-puloh
Lanoh niy na:y tiga:?
Sabum niy ciwel tiga?
Semnam ni:h ?ilwol tiga?
Jah Hut nwey nar tiga:?
Southern
Mah Meri (Besisi) muy hma hmpe? 'mpât lîmâk nam tujoh d'lapan sambilan sapuloh
Semaq Beri muy hma hmpe? hmpon mesong pru? tempoh gênting gêntik mogênor
Semelai muy na:r hmpe? hmpon mesong pru? tempoh kitwit kantim kumai
Temoq moi duaq mpeq mpon mêsong têpêru têmpoh lapan sêmbilan mên gênau
Nicobar Is.
Nicobarese heng ne:t lu:i fe:n tanwi tafu:l sat hewhere macuhtere sam
Nancowry heang a lue fuan tanei lue tafuel ishat nfoan heanghata shaum
Shompen heng au lu:ge fu:at taing lagau aing towe: lung.i te.ya
Car héng né.t lú.y fé.n taníy tafú.l sát hévher~e macúhter~e sí.n
Munda
Mundari mid baria apia upunia monrea turuia ea írilia area gelea
Bhumij moyon baria apia upunia monea turia satta aitta nota dosta
Ho miad báriá apeá upuniá moiá turuiá aeá iriliá areá geleá
Korwa mi ba:ri-ta:ng pe:i-ta:ng cha:r pa:ñch chha sa:t a:th nau das
Birhor mia barea pea punia panch chhai sat a:t la: dâ:s
Asuri mi:at' baria: pe:a: upnia: moyã: turia: aiya: irli:ya: area: gelea:
Santali mit bar pe pon more turui eae iral are gel
Turi miad' baria pea punia miad' ti miad' ti miad' miad' ti baria miad' ti pea miad' ti punia baran ti
Kurku mi:a: ba:ri: a:pai upu:n mono turu:i: e: ila:r a:re: gel
Kharia moi baria upe ipon moloi tiburu gul t`am tomsing gol
Juang munto bato egota gandami pa:ñch chhao sa:ta a:tha nao daso
Gorum (Parenga) boj bag yag ungi monloy turgi gul-gi gal-gi gal-gab al-gab
Sora (Savara) eboy bagu yagi unji monloy tudru gulji tamji tinji gelji
Gutob (Gadaba) mui-ro: ba:r-ju: ig-ro: uun-ro: manle:i tir guligi ba:gu punza ba:gu punza bo:yi galigi
Remo (Bondo) mui 'mba:r ingi:n o:ñ molloi t?i:ri gu: tUma:p som-tin go'
Gta' m-mwing m-bar n-ji õ malwe tur gu tma sõting gwa

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 08:29 PM

they may be sinicized, but their ancestor were mon-khmer, and saying vietnamese were forced to adopted mon-khmer sin't very logical since their was no heavy interaction between the two.

Sirikittong

Aug 18 2006, 08:36 PM

The Vietnamese people are not related to the Khmer/Mon, you nitwitt. The Vietnamese are of the Kinh ethnic group, which were situated in the Red River delta for most of their existance. They may have had some kind of malay/indic influences, but that was a mere springkle in the vast stratum of their genetic/lingual block. If anything, the Vietnamese language is rather similar to the Chinese, particularly the chinese--particuarly observed in that both languages have silent intonations and plosive consonant endings.

The only influence the Vietnamese people had with the Khmer was in their southwards expansion to what is now modern southern Vietnam, after their conquest of what was Champa land. If more anything, the Khmers were more influenced by the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese, like the Thai actually shape and mold the political situation in south east asia--long before the arrival of the parastic farang.

And looking at things in a population point of view--Vietnam and Thailand make precedence. Vietnam's 87 million and Thailand's 70 million is a considerable force.

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 08:41 PM

how do you know nitwit, the viets and khmers descended probaly from the same line, how do you explain their language, you would think if the viets were not around other mon-khmer, it would have never been mon-khmer if they aren't related, prove me wrong, go ahead, or are you thai antionalizt going to say they are related to thai?

supernovasp

Aug 18 2006, 08:43 PM

The Au and Lac were horny people, so they merged together and produced what's now Vietnamese

The bird totem of early people around the Red River is found on Preydominator's sig.

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 08:52 PM

Long story short, everyone in the world has a common ancestry but as people evolve, develop and intermix in different ways, they become different people but do have some similarities due to influences.

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:05 PM

i'm sure that viets are lighter, but their skull is more like khmer.

http://www.tuvy.com/Countries/vietnamese/o...mese_people.htm

QUOTE

Origins of the Vietnamese People

Origins of the Vietnamese people

Relatively little is known about the origins of the Vietnamese. They first appeared in history as the so-called "Lac" peoples, who lived in the Red River delta region, in what is now northern Vietnam. Some scholars have suggested that the Lac were closely related to other peoples, known as the Viet (called the Yüeh by the Chinese), who inhabited the coastal region of East Asia from the Yangtze River to the Red River delta during the 1st millennium BC. Others have expressed doubt about this supposition, noting that modern-day Vietnamese share many cultural and linguistic traits with other non-Chinese peoples living in neighboring areas of Southeast Asia. It is now generally believed that the Lac peoples were the result of a mixture between Australo-Melanesian inhabitants who had lived in the area since Paleolithic times and Asiatic peoples who later migrated into the area from China.

Linguistic research, which offers a relatively reliable way of distinguishing the various ethnic groups of Southeast Asia, supports the mixed ethnic and cultural origin of the Vietnamese people. Although the Vietnamese language is distinct, it nevertheless can be described as a fusion of Mon-Khmer, Tai, and Chinese elements. From the monotonic Mon-Khmer language family, Vietnamese derived many of its basic words; from the Tai languages, it took tonality and a number of grammatical elements; and from the Chinese, who at that time were somewhat more culturally advanced than the peoples of the Red River delta, it acquired not only a script but also most of its political, literary, philosophical, and technical vocabulary.

Ethnographic study also reveals the degree to which ancient Vietnamese culture was a composite of elements found among many other peoples within the region. Totemism, animism, tattooing, the chewing of betel nuts, teeth blackening, and many marriage rituals and seasonal festivals indicate the relationship between the Vietnamese and the neighboring peoples in Southeast Asia. Although Chinese civilization later became the main force in shaping Vietnamese culture, the failure of the Chinese to assimilate the Vietnamese people underscores the fact that strong elements of an authentic local culture must have emerged in the Red River valley long before China established its millennium of rule over Vietnam.

why did the customs of vietnam identical to those praticed by mon-khmer? Can they exchange deeply rooted culture?

http://www.anu.edu.au/~u9907217/languages/AAlecture6.html

QUOTE

While Vietnamese was identified as an MK language more than 150 years ago, and there is now a solid body of work demonstrating its historical affinities, many people still resist the notion, believing that its origins lie closer to Thai and/or Chinese. The problem is that Vietnamese emerged as a national language under circumstances of foreign domination - in 208 BC Han China made the small Mon-Khmer kingdom then located in the Red River Delta a tribute state, and later in 111 BC invaded, creating the province of "Viet Nam" or "Southern Province". Chinese occupation lasted until 939 AD, and during this thousand+ years the Vietnamese culture was thoroughly sinosised. Also, there were many migrations of Tai people from southern China into the Indo-chinese peninsula, and many Tai minorities still live in Northern Vietnam. These influences resulted in thousands of foreign words being borrowed into Vietnamese, and especially in written or high style language words of foreign origin can dominate. Also, Vietnamese has become a monosyllabic tonal language, superficially increasing its resemblance to Chinese and Tai, but as we shall see below, these phonological developments are largely explained as the outcomes of internal changes - similar developments occurred in closely related Vietic languages that have been affected less by outside forces.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-52722
http://vny2k.net/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese4.htm

[quote]At present linguists of Vietnamese tend to embrace the idea that Vietnamese belongs to the Mon-Khmer (MK) branch of the larger Austroasiatic linguistic family. Austroasiatic languages, according to Norman (1988), “are spoken over a vast geographic range: the Munda languages in northwestern India, Khasi in Assam, Palaung-Wa and Mon in Burma, the Mon-Khmer languages in Indo-China, Vietnamese and Muong in Vietnam [...] and were once spoken much more widely in China.” (pp. 7-8) The issue of the Austroasiatic origin of Vietnamese is not new, but until now what has been written on the subject suggesting that Vietnamese belongs to the Austroasiatic linguistic family is unsatisfactory, inconclusive, insufficient, hypothetical and contrary to the newly discovered evidences that are presented in this paper.

In this paper, however, except for that broad classification of the Austroasiatic linguistic family minus the Vietnamese language and those descents of the languages which "were once spoken much more widely in China”, the same concept is used to refer to a smaller scale of a linguistic sub-family. As defined earlier, that sub-class confines only on those languages that were originally evolved from ancient languages of the Yue peoples, which are inherited and spoken by those those ethnic groups still living in the southern part of China, from which Vietnamese has emerged as a special case of total siniticization.

Up to 1991, though Parkin classified Vietnamese (of Viet-Muong branch) as Austroasiatic without any further argument, he still admitted that “considerable controversy has surrounded the problem of the affiliation of Vietnamese.” (p.89) His agreement with Haudricourt’s and Shorto’s view is his basis for the classification. In other word, the view on the origin of Vietnamese is based on the common belief in the Mon-Khmer theories hold by most of linguists who, in turn, use others' views as their spring board to jump to their own subject matters. That is, this view was first initiated by a small number of identified scholars, and then subsequently it was later followed by many others who were not specialized in these areas of study, just having taken the most accepted views. Of course, it is not always correct to follow a view hold by a majority.

Also, strangely enough, some specialists even have relied on the Mon-Khmer classification of Vietnamese made by an encyclopedia for their basis. We can say that what is listed in an encyclopedia is not a dependable source since it just a summary of what has been said and repeated elsewhere, not by any actual scholarly study in the related field. If the commonly accepted view change, encyclopedia will change, too. In other word, no linguists should do so. For serious linguists of Vietnamese, the issue of whether Vietnamese should be grouped into the Austroasiatic, of which Vietnamese is classed in the same linguistic group with other Mon-Khmer languages, or Sino-Tibetan linguistic family, which includes the langages spoken by the Zhuang, Miao, Yao minorities in south China, in fact, is still a big question mark.

The view of Mon-Khmer of Vietnamese origin has been originated from the misconceptions that are partially due to misinterpretation and, unreservedly, acceptance of those research work done by renown specialists in the field as premises for one's own argument. Mainly the innovated view was originally initiated by French linguists Maspero and Haudricourt in the middle of 20th century and then repeated by other linguists such as Baker, Parkin, Thomas, etc., in the later half of the same century. The whole matter can be summed up by using Parkin’s words (1991): “Maspero based his case on the presence of Tai vocabulary in Vietnamese as well as on other pecularities” (p. 89) even though “Maspero accepted a Mon-Khmer ‘substratum for Vietnamese’” and “Haudricourt is the chief debunker of Maspero, and it is his view that is generally accepted today” for his taking [quoting Thomas] “Maspero’s examples of Thai-Vietnamese cognates and [showing] most of them to be general Southeast Asian vocabulary [and] correspondences between Vietnamese tones and Mon-Khmer final consonants”; therefore, “Maspero’s key argument, that tones cannot be acquired by a language previously lacking them, is thus rejected.” (p. 90)

sirikitong acts like he know what should ne related to another, well guess that a dark burman or bumanic person is related to chinese and not the light skin japanese.

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 09:09 PM

QUOTE

but their skull is more like khmer.

Hmmmmmmm not really. You'll be very hard press to find a Khmer skull that is shaped like Ho Chi Minh's and other Vietnamese.

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:12 PM

i'm really tired, havn't sleep can you find one at the tuol sleng or cambodian massacre and one at the north vietnamese massacre?

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 09:13 PM

QUOTE(joost_leaki @ Aug 18 2006, 10:12 PM) [snapback]2193481[/snapback]

i'm really tired, havn't sleep can you find one at the tuol sleng or cambodian massacre and one at the north vietnamese massacre?

Well Khmers see themselves as having round circular heads as they have depicted at Angkor Wat. I've rarely ever seen a Vietnamese head that looks like angkor wat heads. Have you seen a Vietnamese that looks like those Angkor Wat heads?

supernovasp

Aug 18 2006, 09:14 PM

QUOTE(joost_leaki @ Aug 18 2006, 10:12 PM) [snapback]2193481[/snapback]

i'm really tired, havn't sleep can you find one at the tuol sleng or cambodian massacre and one at the north vietnamese massacre?

relax your mind with this

http://visualgui.com/motion/AoDaiTrangAOi.html

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:25 PM

do you believe you are of tai-kadai, chinese-tibetan, or mon-khmer? Doyou believe you simply adopted a mon-khmer, or do you think khmers and mon are the indianized mon-khmer while viet is sinocized? Do you think mon, khmer and viet shared some kind of ancestor?

landsknechts

Aug 18 2006, 09:28 PM

The closest relative of the Vietnamese is the Muong people.

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 09:31 PM

QUOTE(joost_leaki @ Aug 18 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]2193545[/snapback]

Here's what I believe. Yes ancestors of Vietnaemse had influences from other SEA peoples but back then they were not the only ancestors of Vietnamese as Vietnam had many different ancestors of many ethnicities due to intermixing.

The first Kinh Tribe were a result of the absorption of many tribes and ethnicities after conquering those people as written in "The Birth of Vietnam" by Keith Taylor of Cornell University.

So yes maybe there might have been a common ancestry but they were only one of the many many other ancestors that Vietnamese had after conquering the neighbouring people and thus not the same.

neinei

Aug 18 2006, 09:33 PM

QUOTE(landsknechts @ Aug 18 2006, 09:28 PM) [snapback]2193558[/snapback]

The closest relative of the Vietnamese is the Muong people.

kinh and cambodians are not related, our closest relatives are indeed the Muong people, so Joost Looki, why cant you just be happy with being khmers, why do you insist on linking other ethnicities to your own kind, are you not proud of being cambodian? what a shame

Sirikittong

Aug 18 2006, 09:33 PM

^ Exactly. One of MANY ancestors. Hence, the khmer was only a minor sprinkle in the vast Vietnamese stratum. As I said before, joost.

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 09:34 PM

QUOTE

kinh and cambodians are not related

Everyone in the world is related somewhat, and I'm sure all Mongoloids people are related even more or else they wouldn't be classified as mongoloid.

Sirikittong

Aug 18 2006, 09:34 PM

The Vietnamese are simiply VIETNAMESE.

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 09:37 PM

And even then not all Vietnamese are the same.

I'm sure that Kinh of the South probably have Cham blood due to the (conquering of Champa) compared to their neighbours in the North, but they are just called Kinh because they mostly have Kinh blood. North Vietnamese and South Vietnamese do look different.

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:39 PM

but what is kinh related to? what causes them to speak mon-khmer with no cultural exchange?

Sirikittong

Aug 18 2006, 09:40 PM

Same can be said for the Thais who mainly have Tai blood--however some Thais have Khmer blood because thousands upon thousands of Khmers and Malays were hoarde of as slaves back to Ayuthaya/Siam during our wars with them. Nonetheless, the majority of the Thai people have Tai blood.

neinei

Aug 18 2006, 09:41 PM

QUOTE(joost_leaki @ Aug 18 2006, 09:39 PM) [snapback]2193630[/snapback]

but what is kinh related to? what causes them to speak mon-khmer with no cultural exchange?

give it a rest you wannabe

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 09:42 PM

Besides, weren't early pure Khmers related to protoMalay? according to the wikipedia article on Khmers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_people

"The Khmer came with earlier waves following in the wake of the proto-Malays."

So if anything wouldn't they be closer to Filipinos, and I've seen plenty of Filipinos that look like Cambodians.

Mizz_Luv3r

Aug 18 2006, 09:45 PM

Tro Oi!
joost_leaki = Vo giao duc

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:48 PM

cambodian followed proto-malays, but we're pretty late compared to them and share no linguist background, i just really want to know who the viets were originally tracing them, by their language, so they could most likely share the same ancestral line in the mon-khmer race, but khmer have malay fusion, we've only arrive in cambodian from burma 2000 years ago.

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 09:49 PM

Another interesting twist. Here's a report on national IQ by University professor Dr. Richrd Lynn.

http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/article_intelligence/t4.asp

He measures some countries IQ based on "Neighbouring or Other Comparable Countries."

He then pairs Vietnam with Thailand and Chinese.

While he pairs Cambodians with Thailand and Phillipines (More evidence about the relation between Cambodians and Filipinos?".

Now why didn't he put Vietnamese and Cambodians together as "Comparable People" genetically, even though they are right next to each other? While Vietnamese and Thais are not right next to each other?

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:52 PM

k'duy k'daw mi mizluver chear prou srei sieam thuh dau chorrr!!!!!

It said khmers followed proto-malays, not being malays, and khmer came from either southwestern china, or tibet nest to india but they stretched as far as eastern vietnam and central china below the yangtze.

Mizz_Luv3r

Aug 18 2006, 09:53 PM

joost....ngu nhu heo....lol..lol.

joost---why are u saying penis/coochie? lol ah plur!

Sirikittong

Aug 18 2006, 09:54 PM

Oh Im refraining from this lol. Byron--you make this thread insatiable.

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 09:54 PM

QUOTE(joost_leaki @ Aug 18 2006, 10:52 PM) [snapback]2193706[/snapback]

k'duy k'daw mi mizluver chear prou srei sieam thuh dau chorrr!!!!!
It said khmers followed proto-malays, not being malays, and khmer came from either southwestern china, or tibet nest to india but they stretched as far as eastern vietnam and central china below the yangtze.

I said "related to proto-Malays". And how come we don't see Proto-Malays today in Cambodia, even though they supposedly came there first?

It's obvious, because they interbred with the Khmer and thus they are absorbed which now makes Khmers today and Proto-Malays related.

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:55 PM

can you really judge the iq of a country not fully recovered from educated people being killed? I'm cambodian, and yet my IQ no where matches those.

Sirikittong

Aug 18 2006, 09:55 PM

Joost is relying on assumptions--as usual. Or 'theories' lol. Hes trying so hard to relate the Khmers to the chinese when its evident that the Khmers have close relation with the Negroid inhabitants of south east asia, which the Khmers absorbed.

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:57 PM

wrong, khmer came merely 2000 years ago, so the proto-malays 30,000-4,000, and proto malay and khmer didn't mix since there was already modern malays when we absorbed funan.

neinei

Aug 18 2006, 09:57 PM

QUOTE(Sirikittong @ Aug 18 2006, 09:55 PM) [snapback]2193722[/snapback]

yeah he even used other posters in other sites as legitimate sources, i just dont understand why he wants to be other ethnicites so much, he really should just be proud of being khmer

joost_leaki

Aug 18 2006, 09:58 PM

sirikitong thinks proto-malay are negroid.

nenei is dumb, when did i wanted to be vietnamese, i'm khmer and i don't claim mon, so quit it.

Byron

Aug 18 2006, 10:01 PM

QUOTE(joost_leaki @ Aug 18 2006, 10:55 PM) [snapback]2193720[/snapback]

can you really judge the iq of a country not fully recovered from educated people being killed? I'm cambodian, and yet my IQ no where matches those.

But I'm not judging IQ. I'm judging the fact that the Doctor used "Comparable Peoples" to determine IQs of nations that haven't had standardized tests yet.

The doctor used China and Thailand as a base to "guess" Vietnam's IQ.

While he used Thailand the Phillipines for Cambodia.

People who are related genetically have similar IQs which is why he took "Comparable Peoples" to determine that.

Now please tell me why, he made the assumption that Filipinos are related genetically to Cambodians and thus are used as a base to determine Cambodian IQ? Even though Vietnam is much much closer geographically to Cambodia than the Phillipines? Shouldn't he have used Vietnam instead of the Phillipines to make that estimate?

It's obvious because of the Proto-Malay ancestry they have which makes them more heavily similiar genetically.

Vietnamese genetic similiarities to Chinese and Thais due to Chinese intermixing in the past and the fact that Muong(Pure Kinh) and Tai tribes in Southern China lived together and influenced each other's cultures in Southern China.

Which is why I'm not surprised that Dr. Richard Lynn used China and Thailand as "comparable peoples" with Vietnam.

neinei

Aug 18 2006, 10:04 PM

QUOTE(joost_leaki @ Aug 18 2006, 09:58 PM) [snapback]2193736[/snapback]

sirikitong thinks proto-malay are negroid.

nenei is dumb, when did i wanted to be vietnamese, i'm khmer and i don't claim mon, so quit it.

then quit trying to link my people with yours, didnt you tried to say your people are chinese, and you are indeed chinese yourself, why dont you stick to that topic, you might get somewhere with that

Sirikittong

Aug 18 2006, 10:08 PM

@ Joost. The proto malays heavily intermixed with the indigenous negroids in south east asia--and the Khmers intermarried with the Malays. Hence--negroid ancestry is rather connected with the Khmers, wannabe.

He's comparing his people with two conquorors. One thing that I admit is that BOTH the Thais and the Vietnamese conquored huge parts of the 'Khmer Empire'. Be proud of that, Joost.

Additionally, I heard the state of Chenla and Funan was Malay in ancestry. Considering the Khmer Empire swallowed that and absorbed the people within their society--its evident that the malays of Funan/Chenla were recorded by Chinese recorders as having 'course' kinky hair' and rather dark skin tone. The Khmer Empire absorbed this region, with it its people.

ntn1987

Aug 18 2006, 10:13 PM

All humans are related somehow, all of us have 2 legs, 2 ears, 2 hands, 2 arms, 2 eyes, 1 heads,unless we have something different then we come from a different race. We are all related.

Sideley

Aug 19 2006, 03:04 AM

interesting topic....All those are theories.

Since I'm not educated enough in linguitics and ethnology, all I can say that the Kinh, Muong, Tay, Nung are closely tied in their language and the Vietnamese language is monosyllabic (don't know much about Tay and Muong language) and tonal.

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