I am by no means pro-communist; however, I can't help but to admire Ho Chi Minh. Though because of him, Vietnam became a communist state isolated from the capitalistic West thus it was very poor for the better part of the 70s and 80s, and still recovering today. You have to admire what the man stood for, and what he did to defend his beliefs. Unlike many communists learders, Ho was not a ruthless dictator, he fought vehemently for Vietnam's independance agianst the French. He also help OSS agents drive Japan out of Indochina during WW2, and went so far as quote the Declaration of Independence "All men are created equal..." Even though they perserved him like Lenin, and Mao, before his death Ho wished to cremated because it was good for the land. I'm just curious of what you guys think of him.

Yea he's not that bad except for the fact that he eliminated other factional parties

Don't know the guy . Have his pic on net though

Communists are Communists. never trust them and never respect them.

To me, HCM had exactly the leadership and organizational qualities that enabled us to win our independence from the dying hands of the French colonialists. But I truly regret that he never realized that the Communism that he believed in so much is not right for the Vietnamese people.

I agree with his egalitarianism, his hatred for feudalism and the Confucian orthodoxy, his unstinted support for the rights and equality of women and the national minorities. We part ways on the suppression of political dissent, on the stifling of individual initiative in economics as well as in public and private discussions not only because this is bad in itself but because it is bad for our people and our country.

Having said that, I have very little respect for the anti-Communist leaders who opposed him. There were good Vietnamese officials and brave officers who fought for RVN, but these were mostly midlevel types who were unlikely to go up the ranks - the Saigon regime was not exactly known as a meritocracy.

That's great reasoning. I see that if someone is political leaning to the left you automatically do not give them a chance.

The elimation of other parties was a necessary evil for the politcal situation the country was facing.

I wouldn't give two $hits if HCM beat the crap out of the monarchists and their feudal-Confucian retinue. I object to HCM wiping out progressive, non-Communists.

Vietnam might have lost to the French and Americans if there were too many factions and Vietnamese were divided. Considering that with the lack of time involved in war, eliminating rival factions, might be somewhat justified in order to get rid of the foreign oppressors.

Be aware that your justification may very well create and legitimize a terrible precedent, if by some misfortune, Vietnam falls in that situation again. I couldn't care less about killing our non-Vietnamese enemies, but the decision to kill fellow Vietnamese is something that should always be done with much soul searching and much regret and sorrow.

iono he did help get rid of them frenchies so he gets a +1 from me

Vietcong were killing ARVN and vice versa anyway. Not to mention the Tay Son rebellion. Vietnamese spilling Vietnamese blood is nothing new and the Communists never started this precedent.

Ho Chi Minh did not approach communism at first but he approached capitalism U.S for help to remove the French but the anti-communist American rejected him.

In fact, it was the American that backed the French at Dien Bien Phu against our fight for independence.

Anti-communists are scumbags and they'll be remembered as the enemy of Vietnam. Without the communists, today I have to call myself as "Annamese", not Vietnamese. Thank God for the communists, today there is a country called Vietnam, not a colony of France.

Not true. Ho Chi Minh was one of the founders of the French Communist party way before WW2. He was pretty much Commie to begin with.

But he was willing to scrape Communist ideology by working with the U.S. to get Vietnam's independence though.

Yes, I read an article a long time ago about HCM visiting AmeriKKKa pleading for help to the AmeriKKKan president. HCM's hero was supposed to be George Washington. Hoho believed that AmeriKKKans would be able to relate to us because they were a country that broke away from the rule of a foreign king. AmeriKKKa rejected us though because the French were there 'friends'.

I'm glad the US rejected Ho Chi Minh's request. Just look at other countries that asked US for help today. They are pretty much American puppets whose girls are used for rape and sex by US soldiers as well US domininance in their affairs.

Granted, Vietnam was somewhat a Soviet Union puppet, at least the Soviet Union collapsed and now Vietnam is free from being anyone's puppet today.

Anti-communists are a bunch of shiet, they were on the side of the French during our fight for independence.

Communists are not angels but at least without the communists, today there is no such a country called Vietnam

Either way we got rid of them damn Frenchies.

Do you think colonialism would still exist in 2006 if the Communists hadn't fought the French?

Considering how the world rallied against South African Apartheism in the 1980s, I believe if Vietnam couldn't kick the French out they would probably have left by the 1980s due to International pressure.

Of course it would have taken much more longer for the French to leave though and Vietnam wouldn't get any dignity because the French "mercifully" left Vietnam.

I admire the fighters more because they were able to restore Vietnamese pride and dignity by defeating the whiteman. While colonialism probably would have ended by now if the whiteman wasn't defeated.

You lived in the 1920's,30's and you think you have some supernatural abilities that would enable you to see the future? If that's the case, then everyone is a lottery winner.

Ho Chi Minh is the most famous Vietnamese that ever lived. He is the holiest king of all kings, a made-in-VN God.

In what way? The Soviets were never able to have their way in the North the way they had in Eastern Europe, and they complained incessantly that they were kept in the dark with respect to military operations.

After the Vietnam War, the US actually wanted to have relations with Vietnam but after sending delegates they realized Vietnam was too much of a Soviet puppet for relations.

Vietnam definetly depended on the USSR during the 1980s due to the embargo as they did encourage Vietnam to fight Cambodia, while China did the same with Cambodia urging them to fight Vietnam.

He signed and presented a petition demanding independence for Vietnam just after WWI, based on President Wilson's statements on self-determination. But President Wilson's underlings made it very clear to HCM that President Wilson's statements were meant for whites only.

Wilson is a racist guy from the beginning

I don't see how the US which wasn't even a super power at that time could get France to abandon Vietnam.

At that point, the Communist leadership no longer needed the USSR for military supplies because the American War was over. In addition, the Communist leadership could have played off the USSR and the PRC against each other, if it had wanted to do so - By this time, both the PRC and and the USSR were openly antagonistic. I don't see why Vietnam was or should have been a Soviet puppet, not when her armies ranked alongside Israel's armies as among the most effective armies in the world. Had the Soviets tried to pull an Afghanistan-style invasion in Vietnam, both the US and the PRC would have been more than happy helping the Vietnamese teach the Soviets the meaning of the word "grief". I believe that the Communist leadership deliberately threw in with the Soviet Union, disregarding centuries of Vietnamese diplomatic experience with the concept of balance of power.

I believe that the Communist leadership missed a historical opportunity to establish diplomatic relations with the US, right after the American War. But then, they didn't care: they thought that the Marxist-Leninist framework was going to give them all the answers they needed, and all they had to do was follow the cookbook faithfully. The Pham Van Dong/Le Duc Tho/Truong Chinh mofos managed to isolate Vietnam diplomatically, and amplify the effectiveness of the US embargo by engaging in economic policies that almost wrecked the country - I am holding HCM responsible for this, because HCM was the one who elevated these brain dead horses' asses to power in the first place.

^Then please tell me what Vietnam decided to join the Soviets side during the Sino-Soviet split?

Seeing as how Vietnam is right next to China, Vietnam would have probably been more content on siding with the Chinese unless they were more ideologically closer to the Soviets and hence their puppets.

When you are right next to a big neighbour like China and you decide to side with their enemy, then you gotta be their puppet.

Soviet's puppet? Are you on crack, Byron? If that's the case, then why would Vietnam be spying on every Soviet that ever set foot in Vietnam so that it would really pissed off the Soviets? Not to mention when the Vietnamese went to the Soviet Union for training, Vietnam handed out hand books to every Vietnamese on " how to elude Soviet spies". If Vietnam were a Soviet puppet, Vietnam would have invaded every country in South East Asia to spread international communism for them already.

The relationship between the USSR and Vietnam is like a seller and a buyer. They sold their weapons we bought it from them. Do you even know that in the 1970's and 80's Vietnam was facing with starvation because we had to ship everything back to the USSR to pay off our war debt. Even till these days we still owed them $11 billion USD.

If you want to know about the relationship between the USSR and Vietnam. read the book "Liên bang Xô Viết và chiến tranh Việt Nam" by Russian author Ilya V.Gaiduk

I am speculating as an outsider here (I never attended the Politburo meetings, and if I had been in Vietnam at the time, I have no doubnt that I'd be doing major time in some reeducation camp instead. Why? Let's say that hardcore Stalinists have it in for progressive types). There were three factors: (1) closeness to Soviet ideology; (2) the US refused to provide the "reparations"; (3) increasing tensions with the PRC over the Paracels and Spratly islands.

What the hell? Why would the Soviets be this stupid to invade Vietnam?

The Soviets were ruthless and opportunistic, not stupid.

I remember one summer, a ship full of watermelons destined for Russia and for some reason couldn't leave so they have to sell the watermelons for cheap. That ship was the only source of watermelons in the whole city where I live.

Only to bring it's big brother. USA bank-roled the French. People say French was just a stage setting for the real war where everyone joined in to pressure Viet Nam to divide and be divided even the war has ended.

But why would they even be thinking about invading Vietnam?

The greatest thing about Ho Chi Minh is that he kicked @$$ and made sure that no other Vietnamese could ever touch him during and after life.

Even till these days when I meet Vietnamese who have lived during that era, they still hold the belief that the Russian is one of the stingiest groups of people on Earth because of what happened during the 70's and 80's

I am sure that they did consider the idea as a contingency plan in case they wanted Vietnam to be a real puppet of theirs (big powers always have contingency plans) but they let the idea stay on paper, which was wise of them. I am sure that our Pentagon has contingency plans for invading Great Britain and Israel, too, by the way.

Yeah! If you saw some white people trying to sell apples to the merchants in the market, I can bet my @$$ that they were Russians.

Yellow flaggers like stupid outdated craps like Binh Xuyen huh. We bring peace, livelihood, prosperity to the Vietnamese people and they treat us like dog. Trying to live a last legacy behind for future Vietnamese so they can relax and come home whenever they want and Yellow Flaggers create problems for us all. Its best if you just throw yourself into battle without stopping.

My aunt once told me that I could be friend with anyone except the Russian because they are the stingiest people on Earth

To me, "Soviet" is just another word for "scumbag". The first Americans to visit Vietnam when Doi Moi started made themselves very popular among ordinary Vietnamese all over Vietnam by repeating the same sentence "Toi khong Lien Xo" (I am not a Soviet) over and over again.

Those are harsh words, blacklight

Ho Chi Minh is a great figure in the history of Vietnam. He was more a nationalist than a communist. Unfortunately in the latter years of he life his influence in the Labor Party seemed to decrease considerably.

If he had lived to see the unification (even by force) of the country, I believe that things would be much better for our nation. Other VC leaders $hit.

Toi khong Lien Xo
Toi khong Lien Xo
Toi khong Lien Xo
Toi khong Lien Xo
Toi khong Lien Xo

Write it on the chalkboard, landsketchers

The words are harsh, because the facts are harsh. I mean, who among us likes and values cheap @ss, arrogant, know-it-all scumbags who screw up more often than not?

Without the Vietnamese Communists, Vietnam is not like what you see today and millions of Vietnamese didn't have to suffer with War. Its more like advanced countries like S. Korea and Singapore.

Phan Chu Trinh was working with diplomatic means to win independence from France and Phan Boi Chau was getting young Vietnameses to learn advanced technology from abroad so when they get back to Vietnam, they can move the country forward once we win independence.

Ho's means were to have revolutions he learned from the Soviets and the Chinese where the poors and the uneducated were bombarded with propagandas and were told that they should uprise and bring the rich and educated down. As evidenced with the Land Reforms and the Cultural Revolution where ancestor, culture, education were denounced and only worship Communism. Bad for the country, bad for the future as evidenced in today Vietnam as a result of this idealogy!

Ho knew damn well that it was unreasonable to ask the US for help. Here's why: firstable, America was paranoid with Communism after WWII and Ho was a world communist agent at the time. It was unreasonalbe to help a communist organization if communist is your new enemy. Secondly, America just gave up thousands(millions?) of their men in liberating the France from the Nazi, what make Ho thinks the US will go against the French.

There are declassified info's on America wanted Vietnam independence from France. America denounced colonialism and wanted pretty much for Vietnam Indepence as you can see thru Pres. Roosevelt's memo:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/fdrjs.htm

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/fdrch.htm




Thanks to Ho for introducing Communism to Vietnam and making friends with the Soviets thus in no way will get help from the US. I really BELIEVE without Ho or the Vietminh, Vietnam will gain Independence anyway sooner or later without much bloodshed. Unfortunately, thanks to Ho, millions suffered thru War and the country fell back hundreds years behind. Today, Vietnam still suffers the consequences of Ho's great move to the introduction of Communism.

Well, thats the past and whatever happened, happened already. Communism is on its few last breaths. Now, its time for young generations to clean Ho's dirty mess. Good luck y'all!!!

And how effective was Phan Chu Trinh? Hint: zero.
Why don't you cut out the fraudulent bull$hit?


And what was the effectiveness of Phan Boi Chau's approach once the French government successfully pressured the Japanese government to stop admitting Vietnamese students to Japanese universities?
Again, cut out the fraudulent bull$hit!

Who are you trying to fool?

Yeah I know. That's why unarmed Vietnamese civilians protested the French would often getting shot to dead.

I wish Ho Chi Minh and his comrades had their sixth senses so they could see the future that in 1954, the French would just pack up and leave Vietnam peacefully

The French left peacefully, only after the French Expeditionary Corps and the French Union forces had lost 100000 men and after the war went decisively bad for them, not only at Dien Bien Phu but all over the Northern and Central part of French Indochina. My sixth sense tells me that they would not have left otherwise. I was born in France, so I have a pretty good idea that the French government would have hung on to its dream of French Indochina with everything that it had - The French colonialist government had its hooks into us, and these hooks had to be hacked off if we wanted to be free of it: there was NO other way, somebody HAD to die!