I can understand some but certain songs take me a while or sometimes I can't get them at all - like some stuff from Trinh Cong Son

Do you guys/girls need to grow up in VN and absorb its culture to understand the notions and subtle references in nhac tien chien or do you need to know poetry lots.

For example, could someone decipher this for me:

Phôi Pha - Trịnh Công Sơn

Ôm lòng đêm
nhìn vầng trăng mới về
nhớ chân giang hồ
ôi phù du
từng tuổi xuân đã già
một ngày kia đến bờ
đời người như gió qua

______________________???

phewww! Trịnh Công Sơn's works are always cryptic
most of the time I just read or listen to them without paying attention much
Since noone has replied I like to take a stab at it...hopefully I won't make him turn in his grave

I kept reading again and reading again but all I got was...that he was trying to say that the time of our life on earth is basically insignificant compare to the endless time of other existence in the world such as the cycle of the moon for instance as cited in his poem. Basically it is obvious that when a man get old, his pondering about the end of day of his life on earth is inevitable and wondering if he had made an everlasting impact to the next generation ...blah blah...

Let us analyze this...

Phôi Pha (the title give some indication of something not permanent. Immortal if you will)

Ôm lòng đêm (when you sit lonely under the starry night, anybody could be wondering the same here)
nhìn vầng trăng mới về (again...the cycle of the moon...in poetry, the line above it and this line ties together as one with two ways of saying things...first it's an indication of the thematic setting to where he starts out his poem, second, he tried to say that thing occurs in nature are in cycle...meaning permanent I guess)

nhớ chân giang hồ (reminiscent of the past days...perhaps glorious days..??)
ôi phù du
từng tuổi xuân đã già (acknowledge of the old age he mut face)
một ngày kia đến bờ (seeing the end of the day is near...)
đời người như gió qua (the life is insignificant to whatever that exist before us, we are merely a small chapter, a spec of dust in this endless cycle of this world ...

Damn, I feel like that sometime too...but I can't put it in the flowery words like the good stuff that he did

Oh well...I guess that is only one perspective of looking at this...
anyone got anything out of this poem??? enlighten me and vn1234...

Finally Someone had the guts! - Thanks lthv22!

I've also been thinking about these lines. I respect TCS alot and his music are some of the things that I hope to be able to understand on the fly.

I took another stab at this opening to his song after having a conversation with some Novices at the Pagoda:

Phôi Pha: this term means to wither, to fade

Ôm lòng đêm: It should be noticed that the action of hugging/grasping is mentioned. Ôm usually has a positive connotation with regards to joyous meetings but in this case it is "lòng đêm" that is being acted upon. "Lòng đêm" in essence is a rhetorical comparison to humankinds habit of attachment to an empty yet vast horizon of life. Đêm is the time when life is no longer stirring and "lòng" is roughly translated as the heart/inside of us. "Lòng đêm" also has a strong undercurrent of sorrow and sadness, yet we still "om". It is the suffering of "phôi pha" that us humans tend to never let go. I read about three biographical books of TCS and found out he was a devout Buddhist and his music often reflects his affection towards it. The idea of "chắp" or attachment runs through a lot of his music. Literally, when you try to personify or picture the act of hugging the night sky, emotions of incomprehensible struggle occur (an individual that "ôm" a boundless ogject - the sky). TCS music is very vivid and often uses contrasts not only between objects or beings of the same plane but also a traversement between characteristics of non-human objects in Viet culture.

Nhìn vầng trăng mới về: While we are attached to our suffering, an ironic situation appears where in the midst of our suffering (lòng đêm) that we "ôm" so dearly, a new moon emerges. The moon in Viet history and culture is a soothing entity. In Buddhism it is the sign of awakening and wisdom, cool and soothing, leaving its calm rays to shine lightly upon the earth. A new moon and a full moon appear during the darkest nights of the month (some of you might recognize that the most two important days of the month in VN are the 1 and 15. In Buddhism those are the days that traditionally the Precepts are chanted). Thus during our hardships in life that engulf our "lòng" to the size and magnitude of a night sky, a new moon appears to calm our sould. If suffering, then it's opposite is inherent. Though a moon, it is not a full moon, only a new moon. The relief is only a brief moment as new moons do not last long before they start to change phases. It should be notice that a strong hint to the notion of time and its passing is revealed. A new moon is also called a young moon. When you look inside of your "lòng đêm", it is your life's diary and like how all skies eventually have a moon to shine, our lives no matter how bad did have nice moments called the time of "chân giang hồ".

Nhớ chân giang hồ - the term "chân giang hồ" means carefree, or the steps of someone who just wanders oblivious. When we are reminded by the new moon of our yesteryears we cry out and thinkg "ôi phù du". "Phù du" means ephemeral, or in crude terms - short lived. Phôi pha is the title that describes this song. This song is the reflection of the human condition - Phôi Pha/withering. When we are grown up or old we take a look back upon ourselves and see only a "lòng đêm". Our history/karma is the only thing that truly follows us through life because when we die we cannot bring anything with us except our collection of actions and feelings that form our being - karma. While looking back into our "lòng đêm" we occasionally see times and periods of when we were young like aand fresh like a new moon. Yet to remember such times brings on more sorrow as we truly feel the wilting and passing of life - ôi phù du!

Từng tuổi xuân đã già: From each and every year that was known as young, the truth is also revealed that each of those happy years is just a stepping stone of old age. In the past we regarded our youth as wonderful but now we realize that they we simply the prerequisite to old age. The outcome of these years we not what we intended. Back then we were just "giang hồ" and didn't take care so our future is a "lòng đêm" with only slight memories of "vầng trăng mới". Even this "vầng trăng mới" we cannot touch for it is beyond our reach of time and we can only "nhìn" it in our memories.

Một ngày kia đến bờ: TCS also tends to (like many compsers/poets) compose with phrases that have more than one literal meaning. "Một ngày kia đến bờ" can mean "one of these days when we reach the other shore" or it can mean "in that single day we have reached the shore". Both are perfectly applicable and adds to the dimensional richness of his song. Eventually everyone hits death, but since he saw that even in the very young ages, death was already inherent. Every day that passes is a day closer to death. This is a common phrase from a a Buddhist Gatha (poems in the Pagoda used for practicing). In one day you can live, but you are also dying. This idea ties in closely with "đời người như gió qua". Wind is a phenomenon that comes and goes. It can be very fast yet very gentle and quiet, exactly like how our lives fade away. Just one sweep in the minute expanse of history and uncountable lives have passed with absolutely no meaning. Take a look at all the passing generations that you or your parents have witness. Other than suffering and a "lòng đêm", there isn't much else.

This is only the first part of TCS' song, but you can see he is awesome. I have notice his songs borrow a lot from Buddhism and my parents said that he conversed with Buddhist Monks very often when he was still alive. Usually he points out the truth of our existence and perhaps leaves us to reflect and question our presences. I have't taken a look at the rest of his song but I will for sure.

This is why many people like nhạc tiền chiến / nhạc thính phòng. It's depth is much higher than that of nhạc trẻ today. Funny though it is also the reason many people do not listen to this type of music because it takes time to absorb.

Anyone can listen to britney spears and understand immediately. But you are missing out on a lot.

Interesting! I never thought that this poem has so many references to Budhism. It is evidently that Budhism is in you vn1234. That is a very profound view with the reflection of Budhist concepts you observed there. I guess one's belief can easily reflect upon one's understanding when interpret this poem. That is why I think it is the beauty of Son's works. If a poem is so direct and obvious, then of course, there isn't anything that need to debate and to analyze over. IMHO, one of the key to understand this poem is to crack the languistic style and or word arrangement.

I hate to beat this to dead but let us analyze that....(yeah! analyze that )

Phôi Pha okie, there's no debate here. Kinda obvious.

Ôm lòng đêm This is my hindsight. I have no idea that the concept of Budhism is referenced here. Thank you for opening me up.

nhìn vầng trăng mới về This is very debatable. Why? like I said the languistic style here is left to the reader's interpretation of words togetherness. For instance, your rendition of this sentence run: nhìn (regard) vầng trăng mới (new moon) về (returned) . However, I interprete this as: nhìn (regard) vầng trăng (the moon) mới về (recently returned). Hence, two different perspectives yields two different tone of the poem. In your case, you can related the Buhdism to it. Yet in my case, I interprete it as the cycle of the moon which means something of everlasting and permanent.

nhớ chân giang hồ we pretty much viewed in coherent.

ôi phù du hmmm, this is odd. I looked up in the dictionary (Viet2Eng by Nguyễn Văn Khôn....someone named Khôn must be Khôn I guess ), it says to "stroll", to "roam", or to "wander" as I tied this meaning to giang hồ since they are words parallelism in usage. People having being described as "giang hồ" is always associated with "wanderer". However your dictionary yields yet another discrepancy.

từng tuổi xuân đã già Your interpretation is somewhat optimistic. Having each years gone by a man means gaining experiences as a stepping stones to his old age. I am in accord with the idea. Yet, from the beginning, I read the poem and for some reason I felt that the tone in it a bit different (not as a sign of frustration from a man but somewhat of low spirit or low in tone) therefore I instantly felt that he was trying to convey to us that: he comes to realization in that his days of wandering (chân phù du giang hồ) is over. He had moved to a different stage of his life now.

một ngày kia đến bờ I think we pretty much nailed this one dead on the head.
đời người như gió qua yep! this is Budhism's view and so is others'. It is universal. Therefore no point of debate here.

In short, as you can see, the beauty of his writing is evident in the languistic style and word shuffling. One different interpretation can lead you to different path. I believe that there is no one way of looking at this poem. And that is why his works are embraces by the masses yet noone quite understood in accordance with one another.

Good stuff! hey vn1234, can you post the complete poem?

Cool - thanks lthv22 for the post - yeah I'll post more lines. EXCELLENT - I REALLY LIKE THIS TOPIC EVEN THOUGH NOT MANY LOOK HERE OR POST HERE - IT REALLY HAS VALUE AND EDUCATION REWARDS - cooo!

I'm in accordance to what you said - merge your ideas and mine and it's perfect - there aren't any conflicts!

nhìn vầng trăng mới về - remember I said TCS likes to utalize more that one "literal" meaning to his lyrics (một ngày kia đến bờ - it can be một ngày kia // đến bờ, or một ngày // kia đến bờ) - your idea or mine works absolutely fine. Our perceptions give a richness to the dimension and spectrum of interpretation - but the important thing is that overall it carries the same mood. This moon is really cool on the part that it will always return, but it returns to always fade.

ôi phù du - lol, I have that dictionary from Nguyen Van Khon! - I don't use it muych though cause I found some words to be off (they tend to be the technical and scientific words more often) and secondly I use one on my computer which is much faster. The term Phù Du is also the name of a bug - called the epehemera - the dictionary i use is called "LacViet MTD2002" which is very good: Ephemeral fly (Zoöl.), one of a group of neuropterous insects, belonging to the genus Ephemera and many allied genera, which live in the adult or winged state only for a
short time.

từng tuổi xuân đã già - "optimistic" - hmmm? I didn't mean it that way. The mood of this poem is solemn - what I mean was that in our youth we don't recognise that every breath we take is not just life, but it is also the side we neglect to admit - which is death. Every year in our youth is secretly a vehicle that carries us closer to the end. - ôi phù du!!!!

the next segment (I'll post a bit at a time or we'll get overwhelmed)

----these lines look tough!

Không còn ai
đường về ôi quá dài
những đêm xa người
chén rượu cay
một đời tôi uống hoài
trả lại từng tin vui
cho nhân gian chờ đợi

I hope others in AF doesn't think we're smoking something

À, hàng về, hàng về ... có đồ chơi tiếp rồi ...
It'll be awhile before you see my reply again to this post. As you can see, it'll take some digestion to do. Interesting that the 4th and 5th line is an indicative of his drinking habit. Guess people was correct when they said he has problem with drinking. We'll see.

I never read or heard about this. I know that he and Thanh Tùng (composer of Trái Tim Hoang Vu - Hồng Nhung Sings this nicely) and TCS met often with their friends at Câu Lạc Bộ Nghệ Sỉ often and I do believe he did drink, but did he have problems??? - That's too bad though the king of drinks that is a famous compser is not TCS but it is Văn Cao - also considered the pioneer of nhạc tiền chiến because he was one of the first ones (famous that is) to utualize western music notation and structure. I see that many authors, poets, musicians, and singers have a thing for smokes, cigars, and drinks. I think it's part enjoyment, part stlye, and part peer pressure - hey it was in style dude! Đòan Chuẩn was famous for always having a smoke whereever he went - I mean always - I highly doubt it that you can find a single picture of Đòan Chuẩn without a cigarette. I think they do it get relaxed and many of our previous generations take up these habits from the hardships of war - they lived through hell - so I don't really care if they smoke or drink - as long as they don't advertise it to the children its all dope! (PUN intended)

Ahhh nha.c tie^`n chie^'n, such a beautiful generation. Although it may be hard to believe, this genre is what defines modern Vietnamese Music (Ta^n Nha.c). It sure takes discipline and patience to sit through a song but when you feel like you truly understand its meaning, you appreciate it so much more. The lyricism simply cannot be matched.

How can we not mention Pha.m Duy?

Here's an interesting diagram of the transition that Vietnamese music experienced over the years.

yeah, Nhạc tiền chiến sounds good. Trinh Cong Son is a great musician.
I can list some his songs : Ngẫu nhiên, gọi nắng, nối vòng tay lớn , ........
"Một cõi đi về "is the best song I like :
Đôi tay nhân gian chưa từng độ lượng
Ngọn gió hoang vu thổi suốt xuân thì.

-DELETE-

Yup Yup - I like Một cõi đi về sung by Hồng Nhung - excellent! - though needs either a remix or and update to the instrumental arrangement.

___________________________________________
CONTINUED:

Không còn ai
đường về ôi quá dài
những đêm xa người
chén rượu cay
một đời tôi uống hoài
trả lại từng tin vui
cho nhân gian chờ đợi

Well after the rundown on the first segment of this song, the mood can be carried though and a continuation of the "plot" so too speak is also moved forward.

Không còn ai
đường về ôi quá dài

When you're at the end of the road this is a truth that not many are willing to accept or notice. When death comes no one is there to help you - death is an individual event - sorry no relays or groupies here! Also "Không còn ai" points out to the loneliness and destitute atmosphere that is imposed both in the setting (lòng đêm) and the character. This is the second segment of the song and also plays as a shift forward in the temporal spectrum by invoking within the listener a relation to loneliness and then immediately giving a second dead end with "đường về ôi quá dài". This suppliments the original feeling of being destitute with the notion of helplessness. At first sight we would think this line to be akward since age and the journey to one's end is a one way trip, but the composer does not say that but instead insists that the road is instead very long thus technically leaving a path of return. Now I thought about this for a while, and though it may hint at the notion of coming back from old age and its lonliness, a more respectable theme would be the journey back to our "self" In Buddhism, many Masters teach that we are like a mirror - very bright and able to reflect all the universe within us, but due to our greed, anger, etc we have clumped layer upon layer of dust to form a thick cake of suffering. A journey to our "natural self" (Bản Lai Diện Mục - Original Face) would be to take off those layers with practice of compassion, wisdom etc. The journey is possible, but not easy if you have thick layers. Since Buddhism has fused with Viet culture to a high degree and also effect TCS, I'm guessing that "đường về ôi quá dài" is more spiritual and refers to the past of innocence or youthood of the heart rather than of the body.

những đêm xa người:

Though at first look it seems that TCS may be talking about a love mate, but many people misjudge his songs for this often. Another example is that so the unfamiliar ear the song "Ru Đời Đi Nhé" is a steamy romance - but it isn't. Những đêm xa người means the times that one is far from humanity. To a poet/composer like TCS he would not be talking about crude meat and bones as the composition of humans but rather the spiritual side. Xa người is to be far from one's true self and the word "đêm" pops up again but this time is preceeded by "những" indication that these "đên" are more than one - in other words reccuring or cycles as in cyclic nature of life and death. "Những đêm xa người" - those nights (plural) far from humans (not humans bodies - that's too crude - but human nature - pure nature that is). This line is masked in the form of a romantic shout to a loved one such as "oh baby these nights away from you", but if you are familiar with TCS's work then you will see he doesn't do that stuff and it's called "sến".

chén rượu cay:

wine is a toxin to wash away sorrows and stress, but this one is "cay" meaning it's not enjoyable, but "một đời tôi uống hoài". Also notice that it is only one cup that he spends his whole life drinking "chén rượu cay" (singular). These lines pertain to how we try to hide our suffering, but in that process we go through more anguish and sometimes it creates more suffering in the end. Though it hurts to continue, we can't change paths because 1st: we are near a dead end (Một ngày kia đến bờ) and 2nd: we have no other options since "rượu" is an addiction. Though aware of this addiction (that's what really causes the "cay") we are stuck uncontrolably. This is reflected in life everywhere - take a look at yours. Sometimes you wanna change, but your stuck and get out, so you continue your old path even though you know its bad (cay) but your addicted like its a "chén rượu".

trả lại từng tin vui:
cho nhân gian chờ đợi

These lines are about the ironic situation that not only the author (or character projected by the author) experiences, but others are too. This poem is title "Phôi Pha" and the mood so far has been gloomy. So when TCS says "tin vui" he doesn't mean happiness directly but he means the illusion of happiness (like in Buddhist thinking). Remember he is drunk/drinking to release he sorrow, but in truth he can't. From this drinking situation he releases even more suffering (remember "cay") which is considered "tin vui" by other - who coincidently are also drinking this "chén rượu cay"!!!!! It is the cyclic nature of human suffering that feeds more suffering to others because they have an "addiction" to it. Boy o boy this ong is good! To view Viet music/poetry you have to see the whole even though we are analizing line by line - keep that in mind - try and digest it in big chunks and you will see the connections and the artistic talent of TCS. We get into a loop with "nhân gian chờ đợi". Waiting is the similar feeling to thise line "những đêm xa người" - both are yearning. Since this poem address the whole of humanity - imagine everyone going through this poem at once and experiencing this poem (which is quite an accurate reflection of reality) then join that huge community of suffering with the addiction of trying to wash our suffering with methods that do not help much like anger, greed, desire (that's the chèn rượu). The outcome of this huge gathering is more suffering which in turn is more "rượu". So you see that is what is meant by
"cho nhân gian chờ đợi" - we are all leaning on suffering to hope that our old suffering goes away (ahem! - like now with wars to end terrorism - heh), but everyone likes it "cho nhân gian chờ đợi" just like those who think these current wars are justified. Also notice rượu usually is a drink to be taken either alone in sorrow or with friends in a bar - thus the sharing of "tin vui" for "nhân gian".

so in my crude, crude, extra crude summary:

It's about being alone and helpless, far away from our true selves (natural peace), which in turns points us to feed off of negative habits (of ourselves and of others) hoping to wash them away, but unknowingly we are fueling the more suffering for more people and ourselves. - It's titled "Phôi Pha" for a reason!!!

Though some may see this as a "sad" composition - and I have heard many people claim that nhạc tiền chiến is too "dead" in tone - your wrong - these are messages of our true selves - by nelgecting the suffering in the world and in yourslef - your doing no good and consequently you are a person who is drinkin "chén rượu cay".

Personally I don't find this song melancholic in meaning - rather quite reflective, but I do find it melancholic in terms of execution with words, but that's the point isn't it?!!

vn1234,

Here's a link to the poetry with Buddhist influences. You might find this interesting.
http://www.askasia.org/frclasrm/readings/r000062.htm

On a side note, I want to find out if anyone can shed light to this poem from Chế Lan Viên's "Hai câu hỏi". This is not nhạc truyền chiến or anything like that but it is a curiosity that I have as I'm reading this poem ....simple yet obscure
People say...curiosity can kill a cat. There are 8 dead cats in my backyard already

Hai câu hỏi

- Thi Sĩ : Chế Lan Viên

"Ta là ai ?" như ngọn gió siêu hình
Câu hỏi hư vô thổi nghìn nến tắt
"Ta vì ai ?" khẽ xoay chiều gió bấc
Bàn tay người thắp lại triệu chồi xanh.

Roughly translated:

Two Questions
-- Chế Lan Viên

"Who am I?" like a gust of invisible wind
A futile question blew out thousand candles
"Why am I?" gently redirect the North-easterly monsoon
The Hands that rekindled million blossom buds

Phôi Pha - Trịnh Công Sơn

Ôm lòng đêm
nhìn vầng trăng mới về
nhớ chân giang hồ
ôi phù du
từng tuổi xuân đã già
một ngày kia đến bờ
đời người như gió qua

***

Sorry, I hadn't seen this thread before. It's very long, so I restart at random with these verses.

Phôi Pha. Not Nhạt phai, which would mean gone weary. There is a French word for this: s'estomper: disappearing little by little. Pha means blending, like in pha rượu. Fading away. Probably blending into nothingness, into void.

Ôm lòng đêm : ôm here is to embrace; normally one would let onself be ôm, trong lòng đêm, as in mother's bosom. here probably expressing his eventual fusion with the night, in its darkness.

nhìn vầng trăng mới về here in this new night.

nhớ chân giang hồ : recalling the past wandering here and there, hence chân, foot, pace..
...
ôi phù du : ôi: sigh; phù du is a beautiful flower but that lasts not long. So, often, you will find "đời là phù du" about the beauty of a woman, fast gone fading.

từng tuổi xuân đã già : counting the years which have gone by. "già" also means rounded, as for the moon, "trăng già", coming to completion

một ngày kia đến bờ : so, one day, here you are...

đời người như gió qua : thoáng 1 lúc đã qua. life has passed by, so quickly.

***
I'm no religious man. no need practicing bouddhism, because reading writings in Vietnamese has also made me become a bouddhist, embracing the philosophy.

Of Trinh Cong Son, there are some 620 songs, probably more texts. I don't know them all. I like the anti-war songs, most sung by Khánh Ly, about love, or on Vietnam absurd-war wounds, less this kind of text here, only on human conditions.

Nhạc Trịnh Công Sơn



How do you like this one? This is all about the folly and crimes of war leaders.
It was forbidden, I think, even by the new regime?

It's strange. The topic was about Nhạc Tiền Chiến? TCS music is Nhạc Phản Chiến! Anti-war music...

thanks a lot lthv22 for the link

btw - if you need a sig/avatar design just pm me

i did so far
DragonMP
NQSH
dalawapo

and that poem you gave sounds nice - gonna ponder on that for a while