Greeting All interested Vietnamese visitors,

I am FKR, and I am here visiting “your” section of the AF’s discussion board as a tourist today. I hope you don’t mind my presence here. I am impressed at the level of discussion on various interesting topics concerning the Vietnamese people as a whole. Personally, I like the post of economy. It seems like the present-day Vietnamese communist government is catching on to the idea of the “free market economy” after all as there are more jobs created as a result. In addition, I like the post of “Vietnam’s population control programme of two-child policy”. I am sure the success of this policy will have a positive impact on reducing the poverty rate in the whole country, thus suggesting the brighter quality life style for more of the Vietnamese people. Impressive progressive development is taking place in Vietnam. I am glad I stop by this section of the board.

Anyway, my purpose of stopping by here today is to ask those of the visiting interested readers to comment on the ethnic Cham people in Vietnam. To the best of my knowledge I believe the visiting contributor called “Nam Quoc Son Ha” is a quarter “Cham/Malay”. This implies that one of his parents is ½ Cham and one of his grandparents is a full-blooded Cham. Also, some of the visiting posters here also talked about a Vietnamese singer who is of the ethnic Cham.

Unlike the Viets and the Chinese, the religious minority Cham people in Cambodia rarely interbreed with the Khmer people as they prefer to marry with only their own ethnic members. As a result, they remain a distinct group; and in addition, they develop this kind of hard-to-cure disease (I forget its medical scientific name) as a result of many generations of exclusive interbreeding among themselves. I personally think that it is just a small price to pay in order to keep one’s distinct ethnic group from being totally disappeared within a ruling majority group.

However, unlike the Cham of Cambodia, the Cham people of Vietnam went through a different radical process as they mingled and absorbed the way of life of the Vietnamese people. I have come across this theory statement on the internet that says, To back up this assumption, Dr. Thanh Liem Vo of Australia used two important prominent public Vietnamese figures. He wrote, http://chamyouth.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=80

I would appreciate your comments regarding the ethnic pride of the Cham people and their contributions to the Vietnamese society.

FKR

President Thieu was a Cham? cool

They are an recognized ethnic in Vietnam. They are also allowed to have festivals to celebrate their previous kings.

President Thieu was from PhanRang or Panduraga - the last Cham semi- autonomous territory during Emperor Gia Long reign - but I am not sure if he had any Cham blood in him.

We have ethnic Chams who are politicians, writers, singers, composers, athletes in our society. Our language are full of Cham words and our music is full of cham notes. We did not take advantage of our victory over Champa in 1471 to destroy Champa culturally but rather we adopted the intellectual tools and beautiful arts from Champa.

Thank you Supernovasp and Doan Du for responding. I love this section of the board as the posters are eager to share their knowledge. I just hope that there are more responses coming in before I do my synthesis. In fact I already see one one common strand based on the assumed responses between the victorious Viets and Thais. Keep them feedbacks coming in.

i think cham peoples are proud to be viet than any other minority group in viet nam i guess..

Che Linh--one of VN's most revered singer is an ethnic Cham and no no no, Cham has a very strong sense of pride in their culture an heritage. Young Chams are encouraged and probably forced to marry among each other and I hope that they will gain more solidarity in order to preserve their culture which will add to the Vietnamese cultural landscape. Vietnamese should take more efforts to learn about the minorities and not single them out like foreigners.
I think I've heard of the sickness that you are talking about FKR, not sure of the name though but I know it's not serious.

Holy $hito! Is that FKR in the Vietnamese section? OMG! The sun must have risen from the west today.

Hey hey, he's a pretty reasonable person. Most flame wars have always been ignited by one person who likes to repeat over and over these two phrases "VN beat the U.S, France and China" and "we invaded your country in just 15 days."

Anyway, good topic FKR.

I didn't say anything. Yes, the dude is very reasonable and interesting to discuss stuffs with, but I was kind of surprised that this is his first post in the Viet section since the day he joined.

Oh yeah definitely. I hope this good atmosphere lasts.

And be very alert!!! He is the prosecutor.

And I am the judge. :genius:

Don't mind Dai Viet, DrunkOnTea. He loves to give me a hard time now and then. I don't mind him at all. Anyway, DrunkOnTea, thank you so much for your friendliness and hospitality. Enjoy your day.

You finally make it to the top at old age.

Uh huh...

ooh, i lived near Phan Rang.. coolness!!.. but my family migrated south tho

Aren't the cham ethnically related to Indonesia or Malaysia?

Chams are proud to be Viet? I don't get it...




Yes, we are.

didnt the viet almost completly killed all of the cham's people? president theiu was a loser figure head.. he didnt do crap for theo country... nothing cool about him . he was put their by the CIA. he was stupid and mostly not viet. i cant believe the south didnt do a background check on him letting the CIA controls the strings.

POOR decision making result in the fall of a nation...

Vietxgod, where did you read that the Vietnamese killed all Champeople? I only read that there were military campaings when thousands, and sometimes tens of thousands of soldiers on either or both sides were killed throughout 700 years.
If you look at the names of provinces in Vietnam from Thanh Hoa on to Binh Thuan, you will see these words, "Ho'a, An, Thua^.n, (the word Hue^' is a modification of Ho'a), indicating a willingness (thua^.n) to change (ho'a), and live peacefully (an). I was born in Hue (Ho'a), and probably has mostly Cham blood. My maternal village is An Thua^.n, and the province used to be called Thua^.n Ho'a. I consider myself Vietnamese, which to me means not just La.c Vie^.t, but also Mu+o+`ng, Cha(m, Thai, and also some Khmer and SouthEastern peoples of China.
The Cham people had a choice, and most opted to adopt La.c Viet's ways. Those who do not, remain to this date as Cha(m ethnic, and still participate in Vietnam's society, as seen in people like Tu+` Co^ng Phu.ng, one of my favorite music writer, or Che^' Linh, though not my favorite, is clearly the leader of a school of music that touches millions of hearts.
Amaravati, by your nickname, I guess you're from Central Vietnam, too. I think Vietnam now is recognizing more of Cham's heritage in Vietnamese fabrics, not just allowing Cham culture to flourish. I think the coming version of the nation's history textbook will indicate that, from what I hear. But even before, during the Southern Advance, Cham's royal families are honored and worshipped in Dien Hon Chen on The Perfume River in Hue, established by The Nguyen lords and emperors. Hue music such Ho` Ma'i Nhi`, Ho` Ma'i DDa^~y, Nam Ai, Nam Bi`nh, are Cham music. Cham dance also went into Dai Viet's court. And Cham's sculpture went into Dai Viet's architectural monuments. That is why I am proud to be a Vietnamese, which also means Cham.
And the people of Cham varies in physical look, I think. If you take somebody from Thanh Hoa, Nghe An like Ho Chi Minh, and somebody from Quang Ngai like Pham Van Dong, and somebody from Binh Thuan like Nguyen Van Thieu, you'll see that they don't look the same, though they're all Cham to different degrees. Only Pham Van Dong look Malay, though Ho Chi Minh and Nguyen Van Thieu certainly do not look exactly Mongoloid either.

nice come back

nguoivietchanhtong

Glad to run into a new aquaintance here! But why a different nickname, nguoivietchanhtong? Don't know about you, but I have a poor memory, and use one name and one password (sometimes that's not possible with some picky forums) so I don't forget. Heck, these days, do you know how many ID's and passwords you will have to remember, if they're all different?
Just picking on you. No offense, OK?

I really like the Chams....I'm very glad that the Vietnamese kings didn't destroy Champa culturally because they contributed so much to Vietnam. Anyway, I'm not so sure if I have Cham blood in me...but I do have northern Vietnamese and Cambodian blood.

Never knew that Tu Cong Phung was a Cham ethnic but former President Nguyen Van Thieu was a Cham ethnic for sure right?

Tu Cong Phung is indeed Cham. Nguyen Van Thieu is from a province where the Cham last existed in great numbers. As with Ho Chi Minh and Pham Van Dong, I am going by the places of birth. I assume that defeated people don't get killed unless they resist, and people resist only if they are oppressed. And I don't think it was the case with the Cham. Then people living in former Champa territories are mainly ethnic Cham. This is true with ethnic Thai, ethnic Muong territories. (Ethnic Khmer territory is different, as there were massive immigration from Central Vietnam during the Nguyen Lordship rule, and later the Nguyen Dynasty rule, and some immigration from Southeastern China during that time, and during the French occupation period).

Sorry, nguoivietchanhtong, I was confused because of rock a little's post. On second look, you did not use a different nickname as the one you do on the Chinese History Forum.

I'm not sure which region my ancestors migrated from - there was like four major migrations to Kambuja from 1471 to 1832.

These migration waves must succeed oppresssion, or fear of oppression. It is a sad story of Vietnam's history, as with any country that has expanded.
We need to teach our children to appreciate The Bau Tro, Sa Huynh, Oc Eo/Dong Nai Cultures, as they were among the oldest in South East Asia.
Before the advent of nation-states, people interacted among cultures, as evidenced by artifacts from various cultures in Vietnam and elsewhere. These cultures in Central Vietnam, as other cultures along the coast in China, originated from Taiwan, and established the earliest cultures in Asia, if not the world. At various places this Austronesian speaking expansion of people and cultures met with other language speaking and cultures, such as the case in Korea, Japan, and North Vietnam. 40% of basic Vietnamese vocabulary is Austronesian, implying this influence even at the time of the Dong Son Culture, when I suppose the Vietnamese language was formed. In fact, the word Lac, which is transliterated as Luo in Mandarin Chinese, means water. The founder Lac Long Quan, the Dragon King of Water, whose origin is Thuy Phu, or Water House, was probably Austronesian. Au is probably land, signifying Austroasiatic language speaking people from Yunnan. When sea level went up by 100 meters from 12000 years to 4500 years ago, the Lac people were cut off from their center around Taiwan (a theory put the center at the so-called Hainanland, around Hainan; in any case Hainan was linked with Taiwan, as well as North Vietnam before the rise of the sea level). The Lac people went farther into higher ground, where they met the Au people, and formed a culture together. Farther South, which is farther from the Yunnan Austroasiatic speaking people, the Lac did not mix much, and founded bona fide Austronesian cultures in Central Vietnam, and Phu Nam in South Vietnam. About 2000 years ago, Phu Nam and LinYi were founded as separate countries, but they share similar ethnic and language traits.
Because of Austronesian elements in The Dong Son Culture, interaction with Central Vietnam's cultures was easy and there was probably also ethnic interaction together with cultural, and trade ones. That is why the phenotypes of people in Vietnam change only in a smooth way as observed when one travel South from North Vietnam.
Anyway, that is my theory. What do you think?

Welcome to VietChat! Your intro reminds me of Star Trek(I'm Scott visiting you from the Earth Enterprise..hahhaa) .

Good info, I didn't know Thieu and Dong are Cham descandants.
Vietnam has many Ethnic minorities and the last few hundred years, we together shared all the ups and downs of the country history. I think we are all Vietnamese with different ancestors. And I think Thieu and Dong were thinking the same. Unlike many other Asian countries, Vietnam is diversed. You see many faces and that's cool with me.
http://public.fotki.com/thunder510/images_..._rule/minority/


Off topic a little bit:
Current General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam is an ethnic minority Tay descendant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nong_Duc_Manh
Nông Ðức Mạnh is the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam and has held that position since April 22, 2001.

His official biography says that he was the son of peasants of the ethnic group Tay and that he was born on September 11, 1940, in Cuong Loi, Na Ri District, Bac Kan province. However, there has been wide speculation that he is the illegitimate son of Ho Chi Minh himself, causing a brief though inconclusive scandal in Vietnam.

He is viewed by many as a moderniser and has announced that he wants Vietnam to become an industrialised country by 2020.

Viet, Chinese, and Laotian and part American.

I by chance find an interesting writing about the Cham origin of a large number of modern ethnic Viets. Sorry I don't have time to translate it into English:

http://www.xuquang.com/dialinhnk/quangnamtien.htm

I am a Tonkinese living in Saigon, and I really find a lot of different traits in appearance of some fellow Viets who come from the central coast, where the Cham kingdom once existed (darker complexion, curly hair, etc). Therefore I think it is acceptable that SOME (not all) Viets who live in the central coast are Cham descendants, or Cham mixed.

In my opinion, the Chams should be considered the ancestors of the modern Viets, along with the Yue (just like Celts+Romans+Franks=French).

^ So what is the number of ethnic Chams living in Vietnam?

The last time I checked there is about 100,000 but I need an update.
Anyway, I agree that the Chams should be considered as the ancestors of the modern Viets too, but not the northern Viets though, because the people in central and southern Vietnam are mostly mixed from my knowledge. With Chams, Khmer etc.

do cham really have curly hair? i mean really? i thought they're like indonesian, i dont think indonesian have curly hair?

What r u talking about dude? Indonesian can have from straight to wavy to curly to frizzle hair depends on the region and islands. The variety is huge. From what I've seen Chams people have more wavy hair not really curly.

Ya, I mean wavy hair, not curly hair. Since my English is not good enough, I've got some difficulty in finding the right word to use. Sorry for that.

^ Which part of the world are you from?

they have afro not curly hair