Here is a translation of an article in a newspaper regarding the famine of 1945 in Vietnam

Great Famine of 1945 in the North
Besides natural factors such as unfavourable weather and flooding, human factors contributed significantly to the famine disaster occurrs in 1945. French colonial administrators and Japanese occupiers authorised an agricultural policy aimed at supporting their war efforts. The French and the Japanese intentionally bought all the rice crop at below market price and forced many farmers to switch to cash crop and other farmings to support their war efforts. The situation was exarcerbated by the Viet Minh's sabotage campaign, whereby they thieved supplies sent by ship or rail from the south to the north for civilians suffering from famine. Famous composer Van Cao once admitted that he joined the Viet Minh because he and his family was on the verge of starvation. The Great Famine lasted from Autumn of 1944 to Winter of 1945 resulting in as many as 2 million deaths in the northern region.

If you are poor, you don't have much of a choice. Join or starve.

There were several converging factors:

(1) the Japanese Imperial Army extorting and confiscating as much rice as they could for export back to starving Japan, even though the chance that these exports might make it to Japan was small because of the US control of the high seas through their overwhemingly successful submarine campaign;

(2) the French authorities not wanting the Southern rice to be shipped up North, presumably to make life more difficult for the Japanese garrisons;

(3) the Chinese Nationalist armies coming down South from the Chinese border, each army with a huge crowd of camp followers who had to be fed;

I won't assign any responsibility to the Viet-Minh unless and until I see solid, irrefutable historical evidence. What for example did the Viet-Minh have to gain by stealing rice from the trains that were moving up North? When Ho Chi Minh declared Vietnam's independence in 1945, one of the first things he said was that his government would spend 1/3 of its budget to fight the famine - That's not consistent with the actions of a movement that's a cause of the famine, to say the least. And how does anybody expect that the Viet-Minh's guerrilla campaign would be successful up North, if the people there knew that the Viet-Minh were responsible for the famine? Why would the people who were victimized by the Viet-Minh take up arms under its leadership, as they did?

The Viet Minh had to feed their guerilla force too considering they had little popular support then and much of the northern region was famine-struck so it was unlikely that they would be given much food from the population. Also, given that their guerilla is well-fed, others who were on the verge of starvation would be induced to join the guerilla to survive.

If you were a guerrilla and your area of operations was famine struck, it is doubtful that the population would feed you, regardless of how much they support you - My presumption is that the peasants would be feeding their families first.

The question that comes to mind is that: what is the evidence that it was the Viet-Minh that was stealing rice from the North-bound trains and not say some organized crime gangs? And what government officials would be stupid enough to send these trains up North without adequate security? If a lot of people are starving, then there are a lot of suspects, too.

And then there is the challenge: if the Viet-Minh had so little popular support, then how would they have gained support from the survivors of the famine after the famine was over? It's one thing to join the Viet-Minh so that the family won't starve, but that works only so long as the family is in danger of starving. It's another to stay with the Viet-Minh through thick and thin, putting one's family at the risk of French reprisals and fight on through a bloody eight year war.

You've forgotten one fundamental weakness of the French, that they were in full daylight whilst the Viet Minh were in the dark. How could you protect a train full of supplies from being ambushed if a few hundred guerilla fighters are determined to ransack the supplies?

You must remember that at that point in time the Viet Minh were still not that popular. At the time of Ho's declaration of independence, there were only 5000 fighters in his rag tag guerilla army. It was after France's return to Indochina that he started to garner popular support.

But that aside, this issue is still ambiguous so I'll hold my judgment for now.

cookielover:

"You've forgotten one fundamental weakness of the French, that they were in full daylight whilst the Viet Minh were in the dark. How could you protect a train full of supplies from being ambushed if a few hundred guerilla fighters are determined to ransack the supplies?"

I'd run the train by day, but that's probably a glib answer because I'd also have to make sure that the entire rail line has not been tampered with.

I'll note that during our Cambodian intervention, the Vietnamese machine gun crews that provided the escort for the Cambodian civilian trains did a pretty good job keeping the civilians safe from Khmer Rouge attacks. In fact, the Cambodian civilians would make a point of checking whether their escort was Vietnamese or Cambodian before they would board the train (Source: National Geographic article written after the Khmer Rouge were kicked out of power and as they came back as guerrillas. Don't ask me the date of the National Geographic issue: I forgot it long ago)

Why the two situations are not the same:

1. Different time frame
2. Khmer Rouge movement was exhausted, demoralised, had little popular support.
3. KR forces were pushed back across to the Thai border and Cambodia was guarded by hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese soldiers; whereas Viet Minh was among the population, hence easier to stage such attacks and goes undetected.

When a new theory is introduced, it has to be proven before accepted. And it is the one who introduces a theory who MUST PROVE it. It is not necessary for other to prove the opposite.


Can you tell me which newspaper it is? I can't find it.

Pictures:
http://public.fotki.com/thunder510/images_...nd/1945_famine/


I suspect that they stole the rice sending up North from the South and distributed among themselves first and then the mass. Ho's children learned about corruptions that early!

They wanted to get the credit for distributing it, while basically they were just robbers and thieves.

Accusations without proof are just that: accusations.

It is impossible to prove anything to person who was born yesterday or just role playing, right?

Yes, it is impossible to prove anything to a person without proof. That doesn't make much sense to you, does it?

What would you like me to expain to you?

Explain to me, how do you prove something without proof, babe.

What specific proof you need that is lacking? Or just playing roles again?

You called the Viet-Minh robbers and thieves, boy. And I am calling you a WORTHLESS COWARD because many members of my family got themselves killed fighting the French under the leadership of the Viet-Minh, while the likes of you kowtowed to the French and sucked them off. I don't think that the likes of you ever did a damn thing for Vietnam, except look down their noses at those who put their lives on the line and fought for Vietnamese independence and smear them any way you can.

When you call Viet-Minh robbers and thieves, you'd better show up with proof.

What role do you think I am playing now, boy?

You are playing the role of an idiot that has already waved a white flag to me. LOL and calling me a French supporter is further proof that you are an idiot. LOL

Still confused and frustrated. LOL What role are you playing? None of them matters to me. They are either frustrated, abusive, confused, born yesterday boy. Can any of these be anything relevant and important?

You can look at the present if you can look at the past to know that communist supporters are nothing but thieves and those that are blind to rapes and abuse (hey, that word abuse sounds familiar doesn't it? LOL) or they do these things themselves.

So you have no proof, no nothing. You just smear people, because you can. You have nothing, and you are nothing. And you call yourself a Vietnamese.

There are also plenty of proof over at the serious forum too, isn't it? Or have you turned blind now? New role or is that the old ones? LOL

Communist supporters are corrupt now because they have always been corrupt, not because they suddenly caught a stupid bug, like you, and all be stupid and corrupt?

There are also plenty of proof over at the serious forum too, isn't it?

Bull. If there was proof, you'd be spitting it out now. You have nothing, and you are nothing. Our French enemies were the bad guys but at least they had guts, unlike lickers of French boots like you.

French lickers like me? LOL

See how idiotic you are. And if you can come up with anything you would have over at serious forum where you can see plenty of my proofs and replies or you are just blind? Not that new role, you know.

Perhaps I should again spell it out for you blacklight (lol), I am not French, American, 3 lashes or communist supporters. Understand? But I know you like to me French or American or 3 lashes because that is all you can say. LOL

You must be so frustrated you can't come up with anything, sensible. LOL

When you are on your knees, the French don't ask you whether you like the taste. All they care is that the likes of you do a good job swallowing, so anything you tell me about not being a French supporter has zero weight with me.

I told you to show me your proof here and now, in this thread. I don't care about any bull$hit coming from you that the proofs are anywhere but here. One more time: either you have the proofs, or you don't. And I want to see those proofs in your next reply. If I don 't see those proofs of yours in your next reply, then I'll be forced to conclude that you are a liar. $hit, or get off the pot.

Proof the communist supporters are thieves no need further proof. Proof that they were thieves look at proof what they do when they are in control. LOL

What does it says:

""The situation was exarcerbated by the Viet Minh's sabotage campaign, whereby they thieved supplies sent by ship or rail from the south to the north for civilians suffering from famine.""

Are you playing the role that you can't read?

Don't know what to say to idiots Let them keep barking.

There are plenty of proofs, but the most obvious proof is what people do while in control. And what happens while they in control, corruption, widespread corruption. Undeniable truth?

That's not a proof. Just because something is in print somewhere does not make it true - Do you know the author of that article? Can you demonstrate that the author has a reputation for accuracy and responsible reporting? Should I believe everything that the official VCP newspaper write because it's in print, too? Should I believe the French colonialists when they wrote that there never was such a thing as a Vietnamese nation, because they had that claim in print?

I know one thing for sure: some Vietnamese hate the Communists to the point where they will say anything - and I mean anything, about them so long as they can smear them. I can't wait until allegations of child sacrifice and cannibalism come up.

There is one huge problem with that approach: this disregard for truth would damage any democracy that we are trying to build - A dictatorship can be built on anything, but democracies cannot be built on lies. And the blunt fact is that a future democratic Vietnamese government will have to be a government of national reconciliation, and the Communists will have their place at the table just like everybody else - Otherwise, you are doing nothing but hoping and praying for a civil war. There is no way to have a reconciliation by showing a reckless disregard for the truth.

I don't expect that many Vietnamese would have fought so effectively under the Viet-Minh, if the Viet-Minh was as corrupt as you try to make them. In addition, the Viet-Minh, as a guerilla movement, totally depended on the population for recruitment, intelligence and foodstuffs. Being corrupt and acting corrupt would have literally killed the Viet-Minh: it was a luxury that they simply could not afford. Unlike your pals from the Bao Dai puppet government, and its French puppet masters.

I understand ur hardships & dispiseing hatred trowards the French Imperialists.

Don't worry, although obviously there is an earth, u kind of have to question if there is a heaven also & what is heaven or what does it really look like, does anyone know what heaven looks like with concrete proof? or maybe heaven is a place for the coo-coo birds?

-

It was not the time for them to show their true color. The truest color is when they are in control, as their were not in total control then.

Keep on hatng the French, Americans, 3 lashes, while forget similar things that communists are doing when they are in total control, corruption, officialdom no less different than the rest of the things you hate. How strange!

Perhaps, I should also say Vietnamese fought under them because they wanted better for their country, not to make it corrupt and officialdom like before. Thus what they thought they were fighting for, is not what they finally got. Vietnamese got the same thing as before, corruption, officialdom, enslavement. Communists are in total control and they are doing the corruption, the officialdom, enslavement.

What communists say, they don't follow. They say they will cure corruption and officialdom which is rampant, but the elements to control these things are suppressed, such as freedom of expression, which you love, transparency ...etc.

How a quite clever guy like you who did a post on the laughable UN, and recognizes that Giap's human wave attack advised by the two Chinese generals at Dien Bien Phu was simply stupid, could not recognize what I explain above and other places such as serious forum? Did you really come up with these conclusion s yourself or someone put it there?

(1) You are jumping to conclusions: I don't hate anyone. However, I am sure that I will act in a different way in wartime than in peacetime. I think that I am a pretty nice guy, but I don't think anyone including me wants to see my dark side.

(2) Yes, the VCP under the Pham Van Dong did some real ugly, nasty and stupid things between 1975 and 1985. And in fact, the VCP discovered that running a country is a lot more complicated than fighting a war. There is no question that the country was horribly mismanaged and that the VCP was solely responsible for it - My cousins became boat people in that time. However, none of that was apparent during the war years.

(3) The VCP is discovering that there are no miracles, no magic solutions or ready-made solutions, except the bad ones and the ones that don't work. They are discovering that corruption is an incredibly tough beast to beat. No surprise.

On one hand, I am totally unhappy that so many ordinary Vietnamese had to suffer so much for the mistakes of the VCP as it learned how to govern, one major screw-up at a time - It still has much to learn, by the way. On the other hand, it must be no fun for those members of the VCP who have integrity to find out that many of the things they believed in not only don't work but actually harm the Vietnamese people.

However, none of that takes away the fact you are still a dedicated sucker of French colonialist c@ck.

This must be your idiotic side? What makes you think i am a French sucker, can't come up with anything else? LOL. Confused and stuck in a role that you can't get out? What did I tell you about too much role playing: you get confused and frustrated and misguided.

If you are so misguided here, about me, I wonder how you come to the conclusion about laughable UN and stupidity of Giap? These are very goo conclusions, but are they yours?

I just had a thought of why you call me French sucker, because you can't call me American sucker or 3 lashes sucker, because they must be the people that you support. No wonder you came out as bent and role play. LOL

heavenandearth:

"What makes you think i am a French sucker, can't come up with anything else? LOL."

Don't talk with your mouth full.

Aside from that, I never said that Giap is stupid. However, I did say many times that YOU are stupid.

You must think running toward machine guns is a good idea? Too afraid to call anyone else stupid? A chicken role? LOL

This is the intelligent answer from a guy who supports 3 lashes? LOL

Can't even answer why he call me a French sucker, and you were asking for evidence. LOL

heavenandearth:

Your mouth is full and your head is empty.

As mouthful and empty headed as someone who can't say why he calls another a French sucker? LOL.