hi every body! i want to talk about us from other people's (non-vietnamese)perspective.....I have a very strong feeling that this topic will not be very well received in this forum as what i am about to say....since it will not be anything like we have talked in here.
As a vietnamese, i want to be proud of my heritage as much as any other living vietnamese if not more, unfortunately from my own experiences, observations, researching, it is very clear that our lifestyles, way of thinking did not reflect the way people with more than 4000 years "Van Hien" would.
- what kind of cultured people would sell themselves to be slave to forgeiners in the name of marriage??? it's universally known that people who take pride in their culture,people would never, never do such thing, and yet we do it without any shame...and worst the majority of our people act like it's a normal thing!!!!!!!!
-if you drive around and touring different ethnic communities, and without even reading any book about them you can tell each community's set of values........what i see in vnese community is...we are mostly reside in poor neighberhood and we have more coffe shops for our adults..."ruong cot cua the he" sitting there all day doing nothing (what a waste....including me of course) have you seen such lifestyles in other communities (chinese, korea, japan...etc..)????? and if you visit local card games..............you odn't even need to speak local language....because the whole establishment is vnese, even the card dealer, i have never been to out of the state where i live, but i can assure you that there are probably more vnese than any other ehtnic group in any local card games where there is a large vnese community........is this a characteristic of people with 4000 years "van hien" lol
-export labors, forgein investment....etc....suhc a fancy names , is being a maid to a household in a forgein country, suitable for people with 4000 years of "van hien"? obviously we are only good for such jobs that require no skills but obedience...should we even proud of......even with other achievements that we have had.???....(now i have to question .....what did we achieve any way????)
i can go on and on, but you get the picture, of course there are always positive and negative for any ethnic groups, unfortunately our negativities don't seem to belong to people who take pride in themdelves, in their culture, especially after being exposed to confucian philosophy for thousands of year......
Only time will tell who, what we really are.........but i don't think we have lived up to our "potential" not that we have any real potential but maybe because we are not realistic in term of who,what we really are......a football championship team don't call themselve a champion until they win the super ball, a race car driver don't call himself a winner until he crosses the finish line...............why should we consider ourselves to be people who practice confucian philosophy which emphasized the oposite of what we do and live by??????? who would be best to judge ourselve culturally other than diffrent than our own people??? and i can tell you that it's not very pretty to hear what other ethic groups think of vnese (i am talking about honest, truthfull opinions).........being proud of where you came from is one thing but acknowledging of what, who we are is a very unpleasant reality to me.
cheeers
Full Version: vietnamese....who,what are we?
QUOTE (vietfacts @ Jan 21 2006, 10:33 AM)
hi every body! i want to talk about us from other people's (non-vietnamese)perspective.....I have a very strong feeling that this topic will not be very well received in this forum as what i am about to say....since it will not be anything like we have talked in here.
As a vietnamese, i want to be proud of my heritage as much as any other living vietnamese if not more, unfortunately from my own experiences, observations, researching, it is very clear that our lifestyles, way of thinking did not reflect the way people with more than 4000 years "Van Hien" would.
- what kind of cultured people would sell themselves to be slave to forgeiners in the name of marriage??? it's universally known that people who take pride in their culture,people would never, never do such thing, and yet we do it without any shame...and worst the majority of our people act like it's a normal thing!!!!!!!!
-if you drive around and touring different ethnic communities, and without even reading any book about them you can tell each community's set of values........what i see in vnese community is...we are mostly reside in poor neighberhood and we have more coffe shops for our adults..."ruong cot cua the he" sitting there all day doing nothing (what a waste....including me of course) have you seen such lifestyles in other communities (chinese, korea, japan...etc..)????? and if you visit local card games..............you odn't even need to speak local language....because the whole establishment is vnese, even the card dealer, i have never been to out of the state where i live, but i can assure you that there are probably more vnese than any other ehtnic group in any local card games where there is a large vnese community........is this a characteristic of people with 4000 years "van hien" lol
-export labors, forgein investment....etc....suhc a fancy names , is being a maid to a household in a forgein country, suitable for people with 4000 years of "van hien"? obviously we are only good for such jobs that require no skills but obedience...should we even proud of......even with other achievements that we have had.???....(now i have to question .....what did we achieve any way????)
i can go on and on, but you get the picture, of course there are always positive and negative for any ethnic groups, unfortunately our negativities don't seem to belong to people who take pride in themdelves, in their culture, especially after being exposed to confucian philosophy for thousands of year......
Only time will tell who, what we really are.........but i don't think we have lived up to our "potential" not that we have any real potential but maybe because we are not realistic in term of who,what we really are......a football championship team don't call themselve a champion until they win the super ball, a race car driver don't call himself a winner until he crosses the finish line...............why should we consider ourselves to be people who practice confucian philosophy which emphasized the oposite of what we do and live by??????? who would be best to judge ourselve culturally other than diffrent than our own people??? and i can tell you that it's not very pretty to hear what other ethic groups think of vnese (i am talking about honest, truthfull opinions).........being proud of where you came from is one thing but acknowledging of what, who we are is a very unpleasant reality to me.
cheeers
As a vietnamese, i want to be proud of my heritage as much as any other living vietnamese if not more, unfortunately from my own experiences, observations, researching, it is very clear that our lifestyles, way of thinking did not reflect the way people with more than 4000 years "Van Hien" would.
- what kind of cultured people would sell themselves to be slave to forgeiners in the name of marriage??? it's universally known that people who take pride in their culture,people would never, never do such thing, and yet we do it without any shame...and worst the majority of our people act like it's a normal thing!!!!!!!!
-if you drive around and touring different ethnic communities, and without even reading any book about them you can tell each community's set of values........what i see in vnese community is...we are mostly reside in poor neighberhood and we have more coffe shops for our adults..."ruong cot cua the he" sitting there all day doing nothing (what a waste....including me of course) have you seen such lifestyles in other communities (chinese, korea, japan...etc..)????? and if you visit local card games..............you odn't even need to speak local language....because the whole establishment is vnese, even the card dealer, i have never been to out of the state where i live, but i can assure you that there are probably more vnese than any other ehtnic group in any local card games where there is a large vnese community........is this a characteristic of people with 4000 years "van hien" lol
-export labors, forgein investment....etc....suhc a fancy names , is being a maid to a household in a forgein country, suitable for people with 4000 years of "van hien"? obviously we are only good for such jobs that require no skills but obedience...should we even proud of......even with other achievements that we have had.???....(now i have to question .....what did we achieve any way????)
i can go on and on, but you get the picture, of course there are always positive and negative for any ethnic groups, unfortunately our negativities don't seem to belong to people who take pride in themdelves, in their culture, especially after being exposed to confucian philosophy for thousands of year......
Only time will tell who, what we really are.........but i don't think we have lived up to our "potential" not that we have any real potential but maybe because we are not realistic in term of who,what we really are......a football championship team don't call themselve a champion until they win the super ball, a race car driver don't call himself a winner until he crosses the finish line...............why should we consider ourselves to be people who practice confucian philosophy which emphasized the oposite of what we do and live by??????? who would be best to judge ourselve culturally other than diffrent than our own people??? and i can tell you that it's not very pretty to hear what other ethic groups think of vnese (i am talking about honest, truthfull opinions).........being proud of where you came from is one thing but acknowledging of what, who we are is a very unpleasant reality to me.
cheeers
....
But I want to change it by doing everything in my reach: never sit in a coffee shop, never gamble...
touching story 
Be happy for who you are
Be happy for who you are
What's "Van Hien" exactly?
All recent immigrants start at the bottom. The Chinese were famous for building the railroads and laundary mats before they moved up.
I'm pretty certain Viets in the US are moving in the right direction, not digressing.
All recent immigrants start at the bottom. The Chinese were famous for building the railroads and laundary mats before they moved up.
I'm pretty certain Viets in the US are moving in the right direction, not digressing.
I'm not really too clear on what your trying to say. But i'll give it a shot.
Where I live the Vietnamese are very successful. If your so proud of your people why are you generalising them as poor and unintelligent and only capable of manual labour?
Both my sisters are Lawyers, my father owns a company that provided all of us with Private education and University/College tuition, International travel, and anything I could ever want as a 16 yr old. Sure i'm a spoilt frat brat but I'm going to repay him by being the best son I can possibly be.
As with religion, I don't think it should ever affect our actions.
Where I live the Vietnamese are very successful. If your so proud of your people why are you generalising them as poor and unintelligent and only capable of manual labour?
Both my sisters are Lawyers, my father owns a company that provided all of us with Private education and University/College tuition, International travel, and anything I could ever want as a 16 yr old. Sure i'm a spoilt frat brat but I'm going to repay him by being the best son I can possibly be.
As with religion, I don't think it should ever affect our actions.
QUOTE (vietfacts @ Jan 21 2006, 12:33 AM)
hi every body! i want to talk about us from other people's (non-vietnamese)perspective.....I have a very strong feeling that this topic will not be very well received in this forum as what i am about to say....since it will not be anything like we have talked in here.
As a vietnamese, i want to be proud of my heritage as much as any other living vietnamese if not more, unfortunately from my own experiences, observations, researching, it is very clear that our lifestyles, way of thinking did not reflect the way people with more than 4000 years "Van Hien" would.
- what kind of cultured people would sell themselves to be slave to forgeiners in the name of marriage??? it's universally known that people who take pride in their culture,people would never, never do such thing, and yet we do it without any shame...and worst the majority of our people act like it's a normal thing!!!!!!!!
-if you drive around and touring different ethnic communities, and without even reading any book about them you can tell each community's set of values........what i see in vnese community is...we are mostly reside in poor neighberhood and we have more coffe shops for our adults..."ruong cot cua the he" sitting there all day doing nothing (what a waste....including me of course) have you seen such lifestyles in other communities (chinese, korea, japan...etc..)????? and if you visit local card games..............you odn't even need to speak local language....because the whole establishment is vnese, even the card dealer, i have never been to out of the state where i live, but i can assure you that there are probably more vnese than any other ehtnic group in any local card games where there is a large vnese community........is this a characteristic of people with 4000 years "van hien" lol
-export labors, forgein investment....etc....suhc a fancy names , is being a maid to a household in a forgein country, suitable for people with 4000 years of "van hien"? obviously we are only good for such jobs that require no skills but obedience...should we even proud of......even with other achievements that we have had.???....(now i have to question .....what did we achieve any way????)
i can go on and on, but you get the picture, of course there are always positive and negative for any ethnic groups, unfortunately our negativities don't seem to belong to people who take pride in themdelves, in their culture, especially after being exposed to confucian philosophy for thousands of year......
Only time will tell who, what we really are.........but i don't think we have lived up to our "potential" not that we have any real potential but maybe because we are not realistic in term of who,what we really are......a football championship team don't call themselve a champion until they win the super ball, a race car driver don't call himself a winner until he crosses the finish line...............why should we consider ourselves to be people who practice confucian philosophy which emphasized the oposite of what we do and live by??????? who would be best to judge ourselve culturally other than diffrent than our own people??? and i can tell you that it's not very pretty to hear what other ethic groups think of vnese (i am talking about honest, truthfull opinions).........being proud of where you came from is one thing but acknowledging of what, who we are is a very unpleasant reality to me.
cheeers
As a vietnamese, i want to be proud of my heritage as much as any other living vietnamese if not more, unfortunately from my own experiences, observations, researching, it is very clear that our lifestyles, way of thinking did not reflect the way people with more than 4000 years "Van Hien" would.
- what kind of cultured people would sell themselves to be slave to forgeiners in the name of marriage??? it's universally known that people who take pride in their culture,people would never, never do such thing, and yet we do it without any shame...and worst the majority of our people act like it's a normal thing!!!!!!!!
-if you drive around and touring different ethnic communities, and without even reading any book about them you can tell each community's set of values........what i see in vnese community is...we are mostly reside in poor neighberhood and we have more coffe shops for our adults..."ruong cot cua the he" sitting there all day doing nothing (what a waste....including me of course) have you seen such lifestyles in other communities (chinese, korea, japan...etc..)????? and if you visit local card games..............you odn't even need to speak local language....because the whole establishment is vnese, even the card dealer, i have never been to out of the state where i live, but i can assure you that there are probably more vnese than any other ehtnic group in any local card games where there is a large vnese community........is this a characteristic of people with 4000 years "van hien" lol
-export labors, forgein investment....etc....suhc a fancy names , is being a maid to a household in a forgein country, suitable for people with 4000 years of "van hien"? obviously we are only good for such jobs that require no skills but obedience...should we even proud of......even with other achievements that we have had.???....(now i have to question .....what did we achieve any way????)
i can go on and on, but you get the picture, of course there are always positive and negative for any ethnic groups, unfortunately our negativities don't seem to belong to people who take pride in themdelves, in their culture, especially after being exposed to confucian philosophy for thousands of year......
Only time will tell who, what we really are.........but i don't think we have lived up to our "potential" not that we have any real potential but maybe because we are not realistic in term of who,what we really are......a football championship team don't call themselve a champion until they win the super ball, a race car driver don't call himself a winner until he crosses the finish line...............why should we consider ourselves to be people who practice confucian philosophy which emphasized the oposite of what we do and live by??????? who would be best to judge ourselve culturally other than diffrent than our own people??? and i can tell you that it's not very pretty to hear what other ethic groups think of vnese (i am talking about honest, truthfull opinions).........being proud of where you came from is one thing but acknowledging of what, who we are is a very unpleasant reality to me.
cheeers
i think its not an area where we want to generalize. every ethnic groups has its spoil apples. overall, i think there are many success stories and accomplishments which we havent publicized yet, but in general, 30 years after the war, we have made our mark here.
Van Hien = Civilization
I don't feel much of what the guy said. Living in California, the Viets are quite well-off and have a political voice too.
Where do you live, exactly?
Where do you live, exactly?
QUOTE
Van Hien = Civilization
Not exactly correctFrom: www.viethoc.org
It is an overseas site of experts in Vietnamese study. Quite ok, although i think it's intepretation is not as good as by Vietnamese experts in Vietnam.
Trong văn hoá học nói chung, văn hoá, văn minh, văn hiến và văn vật là 4 khái niệm cơ bản và có tính phân biệt nhất định
Văn minh (civilisation) là một khái niệm gắn với phương Tây, c̣n văn hoá (culture) gắn với phương Đông. Phân tích từ nguyên của hai khái niệm này sẽ thấy rất rơ điều đó. Culture, xuất xứ từ tiếng Latin cultus là trồng trọt, chính v́ thế khái niệm này có liên hệ chặt chẽ với Ai Cập, Lưỡng Hà, Ấn Độ, Việt Nam là những vùng trồng lúa nước. Trong khi đó civilisation có từ nguyên là chữ civitas trong tiếng Latin nghĩa là thành phố, bởi vậy nhắc tới nó, người ta nghĩ đến Rome, đến Athene...
T́m Sách sử dụng chữ "văn minh" cho Việt Nam thiết nghĩ chưa hợp lư lắm. Văn minh thiên về giá trị vật chất kỹ thuật chứ không phải giá trị tinh thần. Do đó nói tới văn minh th́ thường nhắc tới các phát minh khoa học, các công tŕnh kiến trúc, nói tới văn hoá th́ nghiên về triết học và văn chương và những giá trị tinh thần khác. Bởi vậy Việt Nam dù có những nét độc đáo (unique) về văn hoá, nhưng chưa bao giờ là một nền văn minh lớn để có thể sánh với Ai Cập, Lưỡng Hà hay Trung Quốc. Miễn cưỡng so sánh như vậy chẳng giải quyết được ǵ.
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Author: Le Bac
Trước khi bàn đến con số: 2000, 3000, 4000 năm ǵ đó, tôi nghĩ ḿnh phải hiểu rơ nghĩa của các chữ "văn minh", "văn hóa", "văn hiến", để biết rơ những con số đang bàn nói về cái ǵ.
Bạn XPH có bàn về các khái niệm "civilisation" và "culture", nhưng tôi thiết nghĩ những từ "văn minh", "văn hóa", "văn hiến" mà người Việt dùng rơ ràng có nguồn gốc Hán-Việt và nên hiểu theo nghĩa Hán Việt trước khi t́m những chữ tương đương trong tiếng Anh.
Văn Minh: Theo TĐ Thiều Chửu th́: Văn: cái dấu vết do đạo đức lễ nhạc giáo hóa mà có vẻ đẹp đẽ rơ rệt gọi là văn. Như văn minh 文明, văn hóa 文化, v.v. Theo TD Khai Trí Tiến Đức th́: Văn minh 文明. Văn vẻ sáng sủa. Nói về xă hội hay thời đại đă khai hóa tới một tŕnh độ cao.
Văn Hóa: Theo TĐ Thiều Chửu th́: Hóa: Cảm hóa. Chuyển di tính chất, cải lương dân tục gọi là hóa. Như giáo hóa 教化 nghĩa là dẫn bảo chúng, cấm ngăn chúng, khiến cho chúng thuận ṭng vậy. Lấy ân nghĩa mà cảm gọi là đức hóa 德化, lấy chánh trị mà cảm gọi là phong hóa 風化, lấy lễ giáo mà cảm gọi là văn hóa 文化. Cho nên kẻ ở cơi ngoài, không theo sự giáo hóa của ḿnh gọi là hóa ngoại 化外, bị ḿnh cảm hóa cũng như theo ḿnh gọi là đồng hóa 同化.. Theo TD Khai Trí Tiến Đức th́: Văn hóa 文化. Sự giáo dục do văn học đă thấm thía vào trí năo người ta.
Văn Hiến: Theo TĐ Thiều Chửu th́: Hiến: Người hiền. Như văn hiến 文獻 sách vở văn chương của một đời nào hay của một người hiền nào c̣n lại để cho người xem mà biết được chuyện cũ.. Theo TD Khai Trí Tiến Đức th́: Văn hiến 文憲. Học hành hiền đức.
Nếu tra thêm nhiều tự điển th́ có lẽ v́ sự sử dụng nhập nhằng trong dân chúng lâu ngày thành quen nên các tự điển sau này cũng đôi khi cũng định nghĩa nhập nhằng theo cách dùng mới. Tuy nhiên nếu xét về từ nguyên của Hán Việt th́ có lẽ dùng chữ "Văn Minh" là đúng nhất, v́ các chữ "văn hóa", "văn hiến" nghiêng về sách vỡ, văn chương, lễ giáo, đạo đức, tư tưởng, v.v...
Nếu xét về thời kỳ sử dụng đồ đồng, đồ đá th́ việc khám phá ra các công cụ tiện ích bằng đá, đồng quả thật đă giúp ích cải thiện đời sống con người thời tiền sử (tiền sử: trước khi có sử viết thành văn), đó là các nền văn minh Phùng Nguyên, Đông Sơn, v.v... Sách vở, văn chương, lễ giáo, đạo đức, tư tưởng có lẽ xuất hiện sau này lâu hơn nhiều để h́nh thành khái niệm "văn hóa", "văn hiến".
Nếu tạm dùng chữ "một nền văn minh" để nói về một thời đại đă qua của một xă hội trong quá khứ, th́ cho tới giờ nền văn minh Phùng Nguyên ở vùng Mê Linh có di chỉ khảo cổ xưa nhất, cách đây hơn 4000 năm (late third millennium BC). Đó là các di tích c̣n sót lại để cho biết rằng đă có người sinh sống tại đồng bằng bắc bộ hơn 4000 năm trước vào cuối thời đại đồ đá, đầu thời đại đồ đồng.
Nhưng tôi không nghĩ là từ đó ḿnh có thể lạm dùng là ḿnh đă có hơn 4000 năm "văn hiến", nếu ḿnh đă hiểu rơ chữ "văn hiến" là ǵ. Người ta đă khám phá ra hóa thạch của những người homo sapien đầu tiên, sinh sống ở vùng Đông Phi cách đây khoảng hơn 150,000 năm, nhưng đến giờ cũng chưa có người Phi Châu nào tự nhận họ có hơn 150,000 năm "văn hiến".
Dựa vào khảo cổ, ta biết chắc là đă có người sinh sống tại đồng bằng sông Hồng từ hơn 4000 năm trước, và họ đă biết sử dụng đồ đá & đồ đồng, nhưng nhiều nơi khác trên thế giới, hơn 4000 năm trước, cũng có nhiều cộng đồng cũng biết sử dụng đồ đá & đồ đồng, có lẽ vừa là phát minh vừa là sự di chuyển tri thức từ cộng đồng này sang cộng đồng khác.
Trống đồng xuất hiện vào khoảng thời kỳ văn minh Đông Sơn (thế kỷ 7 BC tới thế kỷ 1 AD), ta c̣n có thể gọi là văn hóa Đông Sơn, v́ rơ ràng trống đồng có những hoa văn thuyền thú chim biểu trưng sự suy nghĩ, sự truyền bá tư tưởng, dấu hiệu của giai cấp lănh đạo v́ các trống đồng được chôn theo những ngôi mộ có nhiều cổ vật mà có lẽ chỉ có giới lănh đạo mới được hưởng những nghi lễ này, và cho ta biết thêm vào thời kỳ này người ta đă sống quây quần với nhau trong một xă hội có hệ thống như làng mạc, tông tộc, và có khoảng cách giữa các tầng lớp giàu nghèo, lănh đạo, dân thường, v.v...
Dụng cụ đồ đá, đồ đồng xuất hiện do nhu cầu sinh sống của con người nên chưa nói lên nhiều điều. Nếu coi trống đồng là biểu tượng văn hóa đầu tiên (c̣n di tích sót lại đến ngày nay), th́ biểu tượng văn hóa này cũng chỉ mới khoảng 2500 năm. Buổi ban đầu phôi thai, nền văn hóa này vừa phát triển độc lập vừa cọ xát với nền văn hóa Hoa ở bắc xuống và nền văn hóa Ấn ở Nam lên, nhưng ngay sau đó bị Tàu đô hộ suốt 1000 năm nên bị ảnh hưởng khá nặng và khó có sắc thái riêng, chỉ khi dành được độc lập, từ đó mới phát triển độc lập theo hướng riêng của ḿnh.
Với sự dành được độc lập năm 939, từ đó nước ta bắt đầu phát triển chữ Nôm, khuyến khích học tập, mở khoa thi, tuyển nhân tài, văn chương nở rộ, có kinh, sách, sử riêng v.v... tôi cho rằng từ đó trở đi nước ta mới bắt đầu có "nền văn hiến" thực sự.
Tóm lại, theo tôi:
- Văn minh sớm nhất đă t́m ra di tích: Phùng Nguyên - hơn 4000 năm trước
- Văn hóa: Đông Sơn - khoảng 2500 năm (thời đại Hùng Vương)
- Văn hiến: bắt đầu từ khi thoát ách đô hộ của Tàu. 1000 năm.
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Trời đất quỉ thần ơi. hơi sức đâu mà trả lời cái thằng vietfacts cho mệt xác. nó rơ ràng là giả mạo người Việt để mà chửi vô mặt ḿnh đó mà.
QUOTE
- what kind of cultured people would sell themselves to be slave to forgeiners in the name of marriage??? it's universally known that people who take pride in their culture,people would never, never do such thing, and yet we do it without any shame...and worst the majority of our people act like it's a normal thing!!!!!!!!
What kind of people? Impoverished people. I encourage that you take the time to learn to be humble and to sympathize with the plight of those that are less fortunate than the both of us. Love marriages are a luxury for those who are free of the burden of poverty. Less than a century ago and even now, most people in China, Taiwan, and Korea married for reasons that could hardly qualify as love. While doing research and field work in China, many people recalled knowing girls that became prostitutes or were married to foreigners to feed their families. Noone was proud that the girls became prostitutes but everyone was kind enough to understand her situation and to be proud that the girls were strong, selfless women.
I think you need to understand that no one is proud, but it's hard to talk about happiness and love when your family is starving slowly to death. It has nothing to do with cultural pride.
QUOTE
-if you drive around and touring different ethnic communities, and without even reading any book about them you can tell each community's set of values........what i see in vnese community is...we are mostly reside in poor neighberhood and we have more coffe shops for our adults..."ruong cot cua the he" sitting there all day doing nothing (what a waste....including me of course) have you seen such lifestyles in other communities (chinese, korea, japan...etc..)????? and if you visit local card games..............you odn't even need to speak local language....because the whole establishment is vnese, even the card dealer, i have never been to out of the state where i live, but i can assure you that there are probably more vnese than any other ehtnic group in any local card games where there is a large vnese community........is this a characteristic of people with 4000 years "van hien" lol
Like you said, you've never been out of state... so how can you assure us of anything? It's like me living in Egypt and declaring that even though I've never been out of Egypt, I know that most women in the world cover their faces. Having been raised in both Chinese and Vietnamese cultures, card games are pretty big in both cultures. Most Chinese/Taiwanese families I know, especially the wealthier families, have rooms just for playing Mah Jong. But that still doesn't mean that the Chinese nor the Vietnamese are predisposed to compulsive gambling. Each country has it's vices -- some more prominent than others --, but going so far as to saying that certain pasttimes are characteristic of an entire country is ridiculous.
As for the adults sitting in the coffee shops, most of them are unemployed due to high unemployment rates in VN right now. The majority of my cousins gradduated from Saigon universities and sit in the coffee shops, because they can't find a job. Like I said, every country has its problems. Instead of looking at what's in the movies, I think you should travel to China, Japan, and Korea before saying that none of those countries have problems. But then again... you might come back and say that China is a country run by prostitution; Korea is a country of drunks and masochists; and Japan is too sexualized.
QUOTE
-export labors, forgein investment....etc....suhc a fancy names , is being a maid to a household in a forgein country, suitable for people with 4000 years of "van hien"? obviously we are only good for such jobs that require no skills but obedience...should we even proud of......even with other achievements that we have had.???....(now i have to question .....what did we achieve any way????)
Once again, you have to broaden your horizons. The Japanese and Koreans started out as common laborers and fruit farmers. The Chinese were miners, rail-road workers, and laundrymat owneres. And today, nail salons on the eastcoast are either run by Koreans or Vietnamese. The Chinese usually own supermarkets. All jobs that don't require education and noone is criticizing them besides you, because they came to this country and still managed to survive. Not to mention, many business owners are extremely wealthy and are able to provide the next generation with the means to become educated and get white-collar jobs.
Besides, many Vietnamese people had degrees in Vietnam but when they came over here, those degrees became useless. I'm proud of any immigrant that comes to this country without any English, valid degree, and still manages to make a good living in this country. Being only here for 30 years, the Vietnamese have certainly made their mark. Go to California. Texas. Massachusetts. Washington DC, etc. Experts that work in universities and in the government have clearly said that the Vietnamese have done remarkably well for such a traumatized (by war) people.
QUOTE
Only time will tell who, what we really are.........but i don't think we have lived up to our "potential" not that we have any real potential but maybe because we are not realistic in term of who,what we really are......a football championship team don't call themselve a champion until they win the super ball, a race car driver don't call himself a winner until he crosses the finish line...............why should we consider ourselves to be people who practice confucian philosophy which emphasized the oposite of what we do and live by??????? who would be best to judge ourselve culturally other than diffrent than our own people??? and i can tell you that it's not very pretty to hear what other ethic groups think of vnese (i am talking about honest, truthfull opinions).........being proud of where you came from is one thing but acknowledging of what, who we are is a very unpleasant reality to me.
Don't speak for the rest of the Vietnamese when you say Vietnamese people don't have real potential. Maybe it is you who doesn't have real potential -- so please, don't impose your low self-esteem on the other people around you. Realism is relative. If you're a failure yourself, then your reality is that Vietnamese people are a failure. And do yourself a favor and take Asian Philosophy and a few Asian anthropology and history courses. You're confused about Confucian ideology.
I live in a diverse city, and not very many negative things are said about the Vietnamese -- at least not any moreso than any other ethnicity. I'm more Chinese than anything, and a lot of the times most of my friends don't realize that I have some Vietnamese blood unless I tell them, and I've still never heard anyone say anything against the Vietnamese. You'd think that when people have something negative to say against the Vietnamese they'd say it without the presence of a Vietnamese person. So... Why do they say it in front of you? Is it because you join in or is it because you hide in a corner and pretend you're not there when people generalize and look down on your culture?
You're subject to your own opinions, but often times valid or more educated opinions are based on more widerange experiences and observations. But seeing how you've never left the state, you're making little more than wild judgements. I can see how you dislike people who "talk the talk but never walk the walk", but it's just as dumb to stick a label to an entire population. In other words, I don't think you're too bright of a character.
[quote=qcn,Jan 21 2006, 11:05 PM][QUOTE]
What kind of people? Impoverished people. I encourage that you take the time to learn to be humble and to sympathize with the plight of those that are less fortunate than the both of us. Love marriages are a luxury for those who are free of the burden of poverty. Less than a century ago and even now, most people in China, Taiwan, and Korea married for reasons that could hardly qualify as love. While doing research and field work in China, many people recalled knowing girls that became prostitutes or were married to foreigners to feed their families. Noone was proud that the girls became prostitutes but everyone was kind enough to understand her situation and to be proud that the girls were strong, selfless women.
I think you need to understand that no one is proud, but it's hard to talk about happiness and love when your family is starving slowly to death. It has nothing to do with cultural pride. [QUOTE]
The fact is, in vn after 1975 and before the Market economy, vn was one of the poorest nation in the world, i remember that the country had to literally ration food to feed its people, sure people had to eat less than what they want to, but even then, there was no starvation occurred, years after the practice of the market economy in vn, economically vn is in a much better shape than it was before, so the assumption that "family is starving slowly to death" from you is absolutely ridiculuos, even begars who physically challenged can at least make it two meals now a day in vn....but assume that "starvation" as you have suggested is the case (an utimately extreme case i may add) then, was it the ONLY option for them to "feed the family" by selling themselve to forginers, only to get a disrepect from those who bought them as a commondity!!!!!!!!! "commondity" is the word that described them "co dau viet" on the media, for the record...i did not make it up...if you follow the news you wil know what i mean.........basically it all boiled down to this ........if you don't have self- respect, self-pride then don't expect other to respect you, that is why the majority of those "co dau viet" got that kind of treatments............ it was so bad that a lots of them had to escape from their so call "husbands" to go back to vn, most them brought back their children along with them too...............the good news is, they finally freed themselves from whatever conditions they were exposed to (not very pleasant i supposed), the bad news is they even have more mouth to feed than before!!!!!!!!!!, and what will the future to those fatherless kids be???????? the underlying probems to herself and her family individually and to her society as a whole from this mess are much worse than what being said here, along with the damages that's being inflicted upon the people who share her language, culture however small or large it maybe, so don't tell me that culture pride has nothing to do with this.
[/QUOTE]Like you said, you've never been out of state... so how can you assure us of anything? It's like me living in Egypt and declaring that even though I've never been out of Egypt, I know that most women in the world cover their faces. Having been raised in both Chinese and Vietnamese cultures, card games are pretty big in both cultures. Most Chinese/Taiwanese families I know, especially the wealthier families, have rooms just for playing Mah Jong. But that still doesn't mean that the Chinese nor the Vietnamese are predisposed to compulsive gambling. Each country has it's vices -- some more prominent than others --, but going so far as to saying that certain pasttimes are characteristic of an entire country is ridiculous. [QUOTE]
well.......... if 3 is larger 2---- and----- if 2 is larger than 1 then .....can i conclude that 3 is larger than 1????????nothing's logically wrong with that assumption isn't?? if Egypt is a Muslim country and according to Muslim religion, women have to cover their faces if they are out in the public places and if Iran is also a Muslim country then without even going there can I assume that women in that country also cover their faces in public places???????? sure i can, by conductive reasoning i don't need to physically check every other Muslim countries to make such statement, the same for card games thing....if you been to Northen California where there is a big vnese community, particularly in San Jose area, there are two card rooms here and 24/7 they are both packed with vnese!!!!!! i would say more than vnese than all other ethnic group combined, including the native people at anytime............so why not happen in other region in the us if the same conditions exist......
[/QUOTE]As for the adults sitting in the coffee shops, most of them are unemployed due to high unemployment rates in VN right now. The majority of my cousins gradduated from Saigon universities and sit in the coffee shops, because they can't find a job. Like I said, every country has its problems. Instead of looking at what's in the movies, I think you should travel to China, Japan, and Korea before saying that none of those countries have problems. But then again... you might come back and say that China is a country run by prostitution; Korea is a country of drunks and masochists; and Japan is too sexualized.[QUOTE]
what i meant was, the vnese communites in the us, not the country itself, but what the difference.........lifestyle, values would be the same whether in vn or anywhere else, again have you seen any other communities with a high ratio of coffe shops, where mostly adults woud sitting and talking about trivial things all days?????
let's not worry about other people's problems, i don't know and i don't really care what other people in different communities do during their free time, i don't know if they even have free time for that matter, but burning time in such an unproductive fashion in a society where time is the most precious commondity is such a waste and it pretty much tells the rest of the world, the kind of values that we have. You should not even mention about things such as high unemployment rate etc...., it's just plain excuses, excuse is just an explanation for the previous failure, so it's not the root of the problems here
[/QUOTE]Once again, you have to broaden your horizons. The Japanese and Koreans started out as common laborers and fruit farmers. The Chinese were miners, rail-road workers, and laundrymat owneres. And today, nail salons on the eastcoast are either run by Koreans or Vietnamese. The Chinese usually own supermarkets. All jobs that don't require education and noone is criticizing them besides you, because they came to this country and still managed to survive. Not to mention, many business owners are extremely wealthy and are able to provide the next generation with the means to become educated and get white-collar jobs.
Besides, many Vietnamese people had degrees in Vietnam but when they came over here, those degrees became useless. I'm proud of any immigrant that comes to this country without any English, valid degree, and still manages to make a good living in this country. Being only here for 30 years, the Vietnamese have certainly made their mark. Go to California. Texas. Massachusetts. Washington DC, etc. Experts that work in universities and in the government have clearly said that the Vietnamese have done remarkably well for such a traumatized (by war) people. [QUOTE]
didn't the chinese, japanese came here duringthe 18th, 19th century??? i am sure they did, most of them in fact, it's irrelevant to compare vnese community to other ethnic group in term of success, achivements, not that i am denying what we have accomplished, but remember vnese was one of the largest wave of refugees who came to the us the most recent time, fortunately for us that there was social servies (welfare assistant, housing, madi-care, foodstamp etc....)program available from the goverment that willing to assist us financially, this is the original reason why most of us chose to live in california in the first place besides the tropical-like wheather, because of its generously assistant program compare to other states in the us. Back then in the 19th century, i don't think there such programs existed. So it is obvious that we are most benefited from it more than any other groups of refugee, it's such a misperceptin to state that we have got to where we are today on our own merits, even with such support the vnese population here as a whole still at or below poverty level statistically......so that's some facts that really bother me......which means that only small fraction of us is well off and get notice by the media and eventually make its way to our living room and those news with more imaginable details even spread faster thru those coffe shops......... of course
[/QUOTE]Remember every ethnic group whether small or large in America, they all a
Don't speak for the rest of the Vietnamese when you say Vietnamese people don't have real potential. Maybe it is you who doesn't have real potential -- so please, don't impose your low self-esteem on the other people around you. Realism is relative. If you're a failure yourself, then your reality is that Vietnamese people are a failure. And do yourself a favor and take Asian Philosophy and a few Asian anthropology and history courses. You're confused about Confucian ideology.
I live in a diverse city, and not very many negative things are said about the Vietnamese -- at least not any moreso than any other ethnicity. I'm more Chinese than anything, and a lot of the times most of my friends don't realize that I have some Vietnamese blood unless I tell them, and I've still never heard anyone say anything against the Vietnamese. You'd think that when people have something negative to say against the Vietnamese they'd say it without the presence of a Vietnamese person. So... Why do they say it in front of you? Is it because you join in or is it because you hide in a corner and pretend you're not there when people generalize and look down on your culture?[QUOTE]
you just proof my point without even knowing it.........this is what you just revealed
"I'm more Chinese than anything, and a lot of the times most of my friends don't realize that I have some Vietnamese blood unless I tell them"
don't you think it such a waste of your time to argue something you didn't believe in the first place??????????????? i am confused as what your whole point of the argument?????? you argue about other people perspective on vnese, only to imply that you are not too proud of your vnese heritage......this must be the reason for you to hide your vnese heritage from your chinese friends....are you afraid that they won't accept you as their friend once they know you have vnes blood??? don't worry i won't tell them. lol
[/QUOTE]You're subject to your own opinions, but often times valid or more educated opinions are based on more widerange experiences and observations. But seeing how you've never left the state, you're making little more than wild judgements. I can see how you dislike people who "talk the talk but never walk the walk", but it's just as dumb to stick a label to an entire population. In other words, I don't think you're too bright of a character.
[QUOTE]
again read what you wrote carefully, you just argue against youself
[/quote]
What kind of people? Impoverished people. I encourage that you take the time to learn to be humble and to sympathize with the plight of those that are less fortunate than the both of us. Love marriages are a luxury for those who are free of the burden of poverty. Less than a century ago and even now, most people in China, Taiwan, and Korea married for reasons that could hardly qualify as love. While doing research and field work in China, many people recalled knowing girls that became prostitutes or were married to foreigners to feed their families. Noone was proud that the girls became prostitutes but everyone was kind enough to understand her situation and to be proud that the girls were strong, selfless women.
I think you need to understand that no one is proud, but it's hard to talk about happiness and love when your family is starving slowly to death. It has nothing to do with cultural pride. [QUOTE]
The fact is, in vn after 1975 and before the Market economy, vn was one of the poorest nation in the world, i remember that the country had to literally ration food to feed its people, sure people had to eat less than what they want to, but even then, there was no starvation occurred, years after the practice of the market economy in vn, economically vn is in a much better shape than it was before, so the assumption that "family is starving slowly to death" from you is absolutely ridiculuos, even begars who physically challenged can at least make it two meals now a day in vn....but assume that "starvation" as you have suggested is the case (an utimately extreme case i may add) then, was it the ONLY option for them to "feed the family" by selling themselve to forginers, only to get a disrepect from those who bought them as a commondity!!!!!!!!! "commondity" is the word that described them "co dau viet" on the media, for the record...i did not make it up...if you follow the news you wil know what i mean.........basically it all boiled down to this ........if you don't have self- respect, self-pride then don't expect other to respect you, that is why the majority of those "co dau viet" got that kind of treatments............ it was so bad that a lots of them had to escape from their so call "husbands" to go back to vn, most them brought back their children along with them too...............the good news is, they finally freed themselves from whatever conditions they were exposed to (not very pleasant i supposed), the bad news is they even have more mouth to feed than before!!!!!!!!!!, and what will the future to those fatherless kids be???????? the underlying probems to herself and her family individually and to her society as a whole from this mess are much worse than what being said here, along with the damages that's being inflicted upon the people who share her language, culture however small or large it maybe, so don't tell me that culture pride has nothing to do with this.
[/QUOTE]Like you said, you've never been out of state... so how can you assure us of anything? It's like me living in Egypt and declaring that even though I've never been out of Egypt, I know that most women in the world cover their faces. Having been raised in both Chinese and Vietnamese cultures, card games are pretty big in both cultures. Most Chinese/Taiwanese families I know, especially the wealthier families, have rooms just for playing Mah Jong. But that still doesn't mean that the Chinese nor the Vietnamese are predisposed to compulsive gambling. Each country has it's vices -- some more prominent than others --, but going so far as to saying that certain pasttimes are characteristic of an entire country is ridiculous. [QUOTE]
well.......... if 3 is larger 2---- and----- if 2 is larger than 1 then .....can i conclude that 3 is larger than 1????????nothing's logically wrong with that assumption isn't?? if Egypt is a Muslim country and according to Muslim religion, women have to cover their faces if they are out in the public places and if Iran is also a Muslim country then without even going there can I assume that women in that country also cover their faces in public places???????? sure i can, by conductive reasoning i don't need to physically check every other Muslim countries to make such statement, the same for card games thing....if you been to Northen California where there is a big vnese community, particularly in San Jose area, there are two card rooms here and 24/7 they are both packed with vnese!!!!!! i would say more than vnese than all other ethnic group combined, including the native people at anytime............so why not happen in other region in the us if the same conditions exist......
[/QUOTE]As for the adults sitting in the coffee shops, most of them are unemployed due to high unemployment rates in VN right now. The majority of my cousins gradduated from Saigon universities and sit in the coffee shops, because they can't find a job. Like I said, every country has its problems. Instead of looking at what's in the movies, I think you should travel to China, Japan, and Korea before saying that none of those countries have problems. But then again... you might come back and say that China is a country run by prostitution; Korea is a country of drunks and masochists; and Japan is too sexualized.[QUOTE]
what i meant was, the vnese communites in the us, not the country itself, but what the difference.........lifestyle, values would be the same whether in vn or anywhere else, again have you seen any other communities with a high ratio of coffe shops, where mostly adults woud sitting and talking about trivial things all days?????
let's not worry about other people's problems, i don't know and i don't really care what other people in different communities do during their free time, i don't know if they even have free time for that matter, but burning time in such an unproductive fashion in a society where time is the most precious commondity is such a waste and it pretty much tells the rest of the world, the kind of values that we have. You should not even mention about things such as high unemployment rate etc...., it's just plain excuses, excuse is just an explanation for the previous failure, so it's not the root of the problems here
[/QUOTE]Once again, you have to broaden your horizons. The Japanese and Koreans started out as common laborers and fruit farmers. The Chinese were miners, rail-road workers, and laundrymat owneres. And today, nail salons on the eastcoast are either run by Koreans or Vietnamese. The Chinese usually own supermarkets. All jobs that don't require education and noone is criticizing them besides you, because they came to this country and still managed to survive. Not to mention, many business owners are extremely wealthy and are able to provide the next generation with the means to become educated and get white-collar jobs.
Besides, many Vietnamese people had degrees in Vietnam but when they came over here, those degrees became useless. I'm proud of any immigrant that comes to this country without any English, valid degree, and still manages to make a good living in this country. Being only here for 30 years, the Vietnamese have certainly made their mark. Go to California. Texas. Massachusetts. Washington DC, etc. Experts that work in universities and in the government have clearly said that the Vietnamese have done remarkably well for such a traumatized (by war) people. [QUOTE]
didn't the chinese, japanese came here duringthe 18th, 19th century??? i am sure they did, most of them in fact, it's irrelevant to compare vnese community to other ethnic group in term of success, achivements, not that i am denying what we have accomplished, but remember vnese was one of the largest wave of refugees who came to the us the most recent time, fortunately for us that there was social servies (welfare assistant, housing, madi-care, foodstamp etc....)program available from the goverment that willing to assist us financially, this is the original reason why most of us chose to live in california in the first place besides the tropical-like wheather, because of its generously assistant program compare to other states in the us. Back then in the 19th century, i don't think there such programs existed. So it is obvious that we are most benefited from it more than any other groups of refugee, it's such a misperceptin to state that we have got to where we are today on our own merits, even with such support the vnese population here as a whole still at or below poverty level statistically......so that's some facts that really bother me......which means that only small fraction of us is well off and get notice by the media and eventually make its way to our living room and those news with more imaginable details even spread faster thru those coffe shops......... of course
[/QUOTE]Remember every ethnic group whether small or large in America, they all a
Don't speak for the rest of the Vietnamese when you say Vietnamese people don't have real potential. Maybe it is you who doesn't have real potential -- so please, don't impose your low self-esteem on the other people around you. Realism is relative. If you're a failure yourself, then your reality is that Vietnamese people are a failure. And do yourself a favor and take Asian Philosophy and a few Asian anthropology and history courses. You're confused about Confucian ideology.
I live in a diverse city, and not very many negative things are said about the Vietnamese -- at least not any moreso than any other ethnicity. I'm more Chinese than anything, and a lot of the times most of my friends don't realize that I have some Vietnamese blood unless I tell them, and I've still never heard anyone say anything against the Vietnamese. You'd think that when people have something negative to say against the Vietnamese they'd say it without the presence of a Vietnamese person. So... Why do they say it in front of you? Is it because you join in or is it because you hide in a corner and pretend you're not there when people generalize and look down on your culture?[QUOTE]
you just proof my point without even knowing it.........this is what you just revealed
"I'm more Chinese than anything, and a lot of the times most of my friends don't realize that I have some Vietnamese blood unless I tell them"
don't you think it such a waste of your time to argue something you didn't believe in the first place??????????????? i am confused as what your whole point of the argument?????? you argue about other people perspective on vnese, only to imply that you are not too proud of your vnese heritage......this must be the reason for you to hide your vnese heritage from your chinese friends....are you afraid that they won't accept you as their friend once they know you have vnes blood??? don't worry i won't tell them. lol
[/QUOTE]You're subject to your own opinions, but often times valid or more educated opinions are based on more widerange experiences and observations. But seeing how you've never left the state, you're making little more than wild judgements. I can see how you dislike people who "talk the talk but never walk the walk", but it's just as dumb to stick a label to an entire population. In other words, I don't think you're too bright of a character.
again read what you wrote carefully, you just argue against youself
[/quote]
"what kind of cultured people would sell themselves to be slave to forgeiners in the name of marriage??? it's universally known that people who take pride in their culture,people would never, never do such thing, and yet we do it without any shame...and worst the majority of our people act like it's a normal thing!!!!!!!!"
As an overseas Vietnamese, I am glad to learn from you that those members of my family who intermarried have no pride in their culture and should be ashamed of themselves. What else do you know about my family that I don't?
As an overseas Vietnamese, I am glad to learn from you that those members of my family who intermarried have no pride in their culture and should be ashamed of themselves. What else do you know about my family that I don't?
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