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Majapahitans
QUOTE (Iron Malayan @ Jan 13 2006, 12:13 PM)
Some historians suggested that Sriwijaya lost its trading colonies in east Africa to the Arab Muslims and then they unseccesfully tried to get it back with a massive naval expedition in 945 but I am not sure if the WakWak mentioned here are Srivijayan Malays.
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Interesting.... icon_smile.gif
I know Sriwijaya is the powerful maritime empire, but I never know that they can sent lots of navy fleets across Indian Ocean as far as Africa.
Protoculture
Iron Malayan, I also sincerely doubt those 10th century Madagascar Malays were Srivijayans lots.

Are there any indication of Srivijayan Buddhist-inspired monuments or relics in Madagascar?
prahok
QUOTE (Majapahitans @ Jan 14 2006, 09:56 AM)
Interesting.... icon_smile.gif
I know Sriwijaya is the powerful maritime empire, but I never know that they can sent lots of navy fleets across Indian Ocean as far as Africa.
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wow..me neither..very interesting indeed..
malaccan
QUOTE (prahok @ Jan 7 2006, 07:23 AM)
was Sri Vijaya involved in any major wars or any wars at all during that time?
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Srivijaya's first major challenge was from Mataram, the rulers of eastern Java in the last quarter of the tenth century. Mataram was the successor of the Sanjaya dynasty which had forced the Sailendras to Srivijaya earlier. And from further afield in 1025, Rajendra Chola from southern India dealt a crushing blow to Srivijaya's maritime might. But logistically it was very difficult for the Cholas to exert control over the Malaccan straits and Srivijaya reconquered much of what it had lost. Still the rot had set in. Circa 1200, the principal kingdoms in southeast Asia were Pagan, Angkor, Champa, Dai Viet, Srivijaya and Mataram. This was before the rise of the new states of Ayutthaya, Majapahit and Malacca which will forever change the face of southeast Asia.

QUOTE (Majapahitans @ Jan 14 2006, 02:56 PM)
Interesting.... icon_smile.gif
I know Sriwijaya is the powerful maritime empire, but I never know that they can sent lots of navy fleets across Indian Ocean as far as Africa.
*
Hehe, saya juga mencari asal-usul dan akar-umbi saya Majapahitans. There is just so little that we know about Srivijaya compared to Majapahit. History-wise, Srivijaya really is the black hole of classical southeast Asia. Somehow when I think of Srivijaya, I remember Dr. Mahathir's poem Melayu Mudah Lupa. icon_neutral.gif

QUOTE (Protoculture @ Jan 16 2006, 03:13 AM)
Are there any indication of Srivijayan Buddhist-inspired monuments or relics in Madagascar?
*
None that I know of. I did try to look up for information on the infamous Buddhist monastery that Srivijaya had dedicated at Nalanda University, in Pala, modern-day Bengal, but couldn't find much about even that.
prahok
is Mataram a dynasty? did sri vijaya invade rajendra on land or was it a naval battle?
QUOTE (malaccan @ Jan 15 2006, 11:31 PM)
Srivijaya's first major challenge was from Mataram, the rulers of eastern Java in the last quarter of the tenth century. Mataram was the successor of the Sanjaya dynasty which had forced the Sailendras to Srivijaya earlier. And from further afield in 1025, Rajendra Chola from southern India dealt a crushing blow to Srivijaya's maritime might. But logistically it was very difficult for the Cholas to exert control over the Malaccan straits and Srivijaya reconquered much of what it had lost.  Still the rot had set in. Circa 1200, the principal kingdoms in southeast Asia were Pagan, Angkor, Champa, Dai Viet, Srivijaya and Mataram. This was before the rise of the new states of Ayutthaya, Majapahit and Malacca which will forever change the face of southeast Asia. 
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Majapahitans
QUOTE (prahok @ Jan 16 2006, 03:56 AM)
is Mataram a dynasty? did sri vijaya invade rajendra on land or was it a naval battle?
*


Mataram is the name of kingdom in Java, with capital in Central Java Kedu Plain (near Prambanan temple, south of Merapi volcano). Actually there is two period of Mataram kingdom.

Ancient Mataram (6th AD - 10th AD)
Mataram kingdom is formed by two royal Dynasty, the Hindu Sanjaya dynasty and Buddhist Sailendra dynasty. They (Sanjaya and Sailendra) rules in weird coexistance, sometimes wary.., sometimes ally. In the end, the two dynasty united with royal marriage of Rakai Pikatan (Sanjayan Prince) and Pramodhawardhani (Sailendran Princess), while Balaputradewa (Pramodhawardhani younger brother) losing the succession of Javan-Sailendra throne.., fleed to Sumatra, then married Srivijayan Princess and rise to Srivijayan throne. Thus this makes the origin of Srivijayan-Sailendran line of Royal Blood.

Sailendra is famous with their Borobudur monument.


While Sanjaya with their Prambanan temple complex.

In 10th AD suddenly the celebrated capital city of Mataram (around Prambanan) abandoned. Mpu Sindok moved the capital city eastward to around Kediri East Java. Posibly caused by devastating Merapi volcano massive eruption, burried temples and capital city in volcanic ashes.

This Eastern Java period is hardly called Mataram anymore, Since Mataram is identified with Middle-Southern plain of Central Java. This Eastern Java kingdom is simply called Java and suffer domination from Srivijaya, although not directly controlled by Srivijaya. During Airlangga's father in-law reign, the Lokapala royal palace ransacked by King Wura Wari, a Sri Vijayan kingdom-colony in Java with the order of Srivijayan Emperor. Later Airlangga regain his throne and unified Central-Eastern Java. Later the Java kingdom split to twin kingdoms of Janggala and Panjalu, later called Kediri (Daha) and Kahuripan, Later unified by Kediri. Kediri later conquered by Singhasari. Singhasari launch Pamalayu expedition to attack Malayu and Srivijaya. Later Singhasari collaps by the attack of Kediri. Later Majapahit empire took control over Java and most of archipelago.

Mataram Kingdom (16th - 18th AD)
This Islamic Sultanate is rebuild the Ancient Mataram tradition, after the fall of Majapahit, and later Demak and Pajang Kingdom. Also flourished in southern plain of Merapi volcano. Although Mataram is muslim states, Hindu-Buddhist tradition still alive and well maintained. Mataram greatest King Sultan Agung launch attack to Dutch Batavia, almost get rid of Dutch colonialization.

Later defeated by VOC and split to two small states, Yogyakarta and Surakarta.
TonyL
QUOTE
Srivijaya's first major challenge was from Mataram, the rulers of eastern Java in . And from further afield in 1025, Rajendra Chola from southern India dealt a crushing blow to Srivijaya's maritime might. But logistically it was very difficult for the Cholas to exert control over the Malaccan straits and Srivijaya reconquered much of what it had lost. 

Chola-Srivijaya story we sometimes read on internet is the Cholaversion ( based on a short inscription they made in their familytemple ) Un-reliable and at best a exaggerated version of events.

Stupidly enough lazy historians only recently started to compare it with the Chinese records that give more detailed and thrustworthy info on this. They also explain the sequel :

In 1015 Chinese empire accepted Chola as 'tributary ' trading partner in the China trade. If there ever was a large scale war ( a la Chola claim ) between them and China s best tradingpartner Srivijaya this would have been in the records but it its not there. Logical since it was of limited effect , the real fighting seems to have taken place in outer areas too.

The story :
As maritime trading kingdom Cholas wanted to expand to the lucrative China trade , for most part in hands of Srivijaya . Between 1000 and 1025 Srivijaya-Chola relation was good, regulair exchanging of gifts etc .Shortly after that and the Srivijaya -Java war they backstabbed Srivijaya and attacked some ports ( probably ganga negara and (Gel)langi ). 1025-1077 Cholas missions to China are reported and in 1077 Cholas recieved new tradingstatus. But after some short break/reorganisation Srivijaya went back on stage ( Jambi was Srivijaya new capital ) , a new delegation came to the court to strengthen the relations( inscription at Guangzhou 1079 ) and end Chola involvement (1077 remained last Chola mission ) Several records from late Sung periode recall the earlier Imperial Board of rites 1106 were Cholas are mentioned to have been subjecated recently by Srivijaya.

Part of the Sung Shih, so often used in reconstructing S E asian history :
QUOTE
In the year A.D.1106 Kyanzittha [ of Burma] sent envoys to to pay tributes to the Chinese emperor Hui Tsung (A.D.1101-1126) of the Sung Empire. The emperor orderd the envoys to be provided the same rank and ceremony as to the envoys from the Chola country[once had]. But the grand council advised "....the Chola country is subject to Sri Vijaya. During the hsi-ning period (A.D.1068-79) imperial decrees were addressed to it on thick-backed paper and enclosed in box and wrapper.  Now Pukan Arimaddanapur[ Burma ] is a big kingdom. We cannot look down on it as an ordinary little dependent kingdom..

Original account also in Chu fan Chih of Chao Ju Kua translated by Hirth and Rockhill

Other detailed records 1100 's memorate how Srivijaya blocked all ships in the Straits and all nations involve in the trade including the Indians were said to gave been surpasssed in battle by Srivijaya. They further explain what happens if ships would not enter voluntary and pay harbour dues whip.gif .

Enough here . This is the outcome and the usually skipped sequel after comparing the best available authentic historical records. book.gif Internetsites can be helpfull but we have to investigate wich ORIGINAL sources are used.

Srivijaya s decline :
Economic changes and a new trade pattern were mostly responsible. Between 1100-1200 Srivijaya was mostly on old level and nr 1. again but when in 1225 superintendent Chau Ju Kua mentions all Srivijaya dependencies including the base on Sri lanka, he also tells Kampe ( on Sumatra ) and Kedah had broken away and were now operating on its own. The pressure of economic changes and an increase of Chinese private trade( as opposed to the " state sponsored trade) made competion between ports stronger and by 1250 the empire had fallen apart. This was so evident that Yuan sources let go on the name "Srivijaya ( used for 600 years ). The decline went further and finally Singosari and later Majapahit extended its influence on former capitals for a while. Later on Malay naval power would rise again but thats another story.
malaccan
Beautiful photos. I hope to visit these places someday.
QUOTE (Majapahitans @ Jan 16 2006, 03:53 PM)

Sailendra is famous with their Borobudur monument.


While Sanjaya with their Prambanan temple complex.
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Thanks for the input on Java's ancient history Majapahitans. I find that it can be very confusing and convoluted at times. Initially my readings led me to believe that the Mataram kingdom came only after the Sanjayas had expelled the Sailendras to Srivijaya, ie Mataram was the continuation of Sanjaya. I knew that the Sailendras were matrimonially related to the Sanjaya in north-central Java as well as the Srivijaya ruling house in Sumatra. Am I right to say there are two school of thoughts here, one in that old Mataram consist of both the Hindu Sanjaya and Buddhist Sailendra, while the other dates Sindok moving of the capital to Mataram proper as its foundation?

Seeing how Tony has brought Singhasari into the discussion, and prahok and Sirikittong have also shown interest in this topic, I'll give a brief outline of the developments in classical southeast Asia with regards to the the Khmer, Thai, Javanese and Malay neighbours.This is just an outline, not gospel. And the facts and dates are easily open for facts and debates. My main sources are DG Hall, Sar Desai and N Tarling.

1st century: Funan founded
192: Champa founded
6th century: Chenla defeats Funan
7th century: Srivijaya founded
8th century: Sailendra founded
706: Chenla divided
778-824: Borobodur built
790: Sailendra invades Lower Chenla
802-850: Jayavarman II; unifies Khmers, adopt Devaraja cult
850: Sailendra Balaputra flees to Srivijaya
889-900: Yasovarman I founds Angkor
929-48: Sindok founds Mataram
1002-1050: Suryavarman I
1006: Srivijaya defeats Mataram
1026-1045: Cholas occupy Srivijaya
1042: Airlangga divides Mataram into Janggala and Kediri
1113-1150: Suryavarman II; builds Vishnu temple in Angkor
1181-1219: Jayavarman VII; founds Angkor Thom
1222: Ken Angrok defeats Kediri, moves capital to Singhasari
1253: Mongols destroy Nan Chao
1283-1317: Rama Khamheng; Sukhothai golden age
1290: Kertanegara of Singhasari defeats Srivijaya
1292: Mongols attack Singhasari, Kertanegara killed, Majapahit founded
1331-64: Patih Gajah Mada, great Majapahit prime minister
1350-1369: Ramadhipati founds Ayutthaya, promulgates law code
1402: Parameswara founds Malacca (Melaka in Malay), Malacca converts to Islam
1431: Fall of Angkor
1448-1488: Trailok; Thai palace code
1471: Champa defeated
1511: Europeans gain foothold in southeast Asia, Portuguese conquer Malacca
VisitingAlien
So it started with the Khmer first Kingdom of Funan or Nokor Phnom. Cool to know.

QUOTE
Funan peaked as a nation under Jayavarman I (478-514) and then rapidly fell into ruin. But Funan had established the social, economic, and political patterns that most states on the Southeast Asian mainland would follow for centuries to come.
http://www.guidetothailand.com/thailand-history/funan.htm
malaccan
QUOTE (VisitingAlien @ Jan 17 2006, 09:50 AM)
So it started with the Khmer first Kingdom of Funan or Nokor Phnom.  Cool to know.
*

Yeah, Funan was certainly the grand-daddy of all classical southeast Asian empires.
You know there are conflicting views as to exact ethnicity of the Funanese people VisitingAlien. Some say they were Khmer, others say they were Malay. This caused a lot of friction here on AF, from before I joined.

WHY I THINK FUNAN WAS A MALAY KINGDOM Started by a malay_ako
Nokor Phnom aka Funan(by the chinese) Started by nombaingsachko

You cited the internet source www.guidetothailand.com. The same site states
QUOTE
Normally the Chinese are not impressed by the accomplishments of other people, but Funan's visitors brought back a favorable report of the country's Malay upper class, which had palaces, abundant treasures, and a system of writing related to Sanskrit

It's always problematical when we use internet sources which are commercial in nature, and are not from academia nor peer-reviewed by historians. Whatever the origins of Funan were, I think we can say that there has always been close ties between the Khmers and Malays right from the start. For the record, I myself make no claims that Funan was Malay, I just don't know enough about it. My purpose here is to learn more about Srivijaya. But certainly, the Sailendras of Java claimed descent from Funan, hence their invasion of Lower Chenla to unite the kingdoms in mainland and maritime southeast Asia, even if for the briefest of times. We the people of southeast Asia are inter-related then just as we are now. beerchug.gif

Here's another photo of Borobodur that I saved after it was posted by purnomor a while ago.

For the longest time Islam in southeast Asia have been very accomodative of its earlier Hindu and Buddhist past. Had it come to us in some of its more orthodox form today, there'd be no way the Malays would have accepted it.
Iron Malayan
I think more research needs to be conducted by our academicians to ascertain the identity of those Wakwaks as well as to determine the extent of Malay or Sriwijaya activities in Africa and Madagascar , but in the meantime it wouldn't take too much brainpower to accept that the greatest explorers and ship builders of that era had little problem in setting up some sort of trading settlements there.

Coming from a highly practical and warlike race, the Srivijayans were not crazy about their religions which were Buddhism and Hinduism. They didn't waste their time and money building religious monuments which generate no income. They preferred to build the biggest ships in the world to maximise return on their investments. So, even in their home territories of Sumatra and the peninsula, there were very few discoveries of Sriwijaya ruins . Thats why we cannot expect to find any physical evidence in Africa and Madagascar.


QUOTE (Protoculture @ Jan 15 2006, 10:13 PM)
Iron Malayan, I also sincerely doubt those 10th century Madagascar Malays were Srivijayans lots.

Are there any indication of Srivijayan Buddhist-inspired monuments or relics in Madagascar?
*
VisitingAlien
QUOTE
Yeah, Funan was certainly the grand-daddy of all classical southeast Asian empires.  You know there are conflicting views as to exact ethnicity of the Funanese people VisitingAlien. Some say they were Khmer, others say they were Malay. This caused a lot of friction here on AF, from before I joined.


You cited the internet source www.guidetothailand.com. The same site states

It's always problematical when we use internet sources which are commercial in nature, and are not from academia nor peer-reviewed by historians. Whatever the origins of Funan were, I think we can say that there has always been close ties between the Khmers and Malays right from the start.

For the record, I myself make no claims that Funan was Malay, I just don't know enough about it. My purpose here is to learn more about Srivijaya. But certainly, the Sailendras of Java claimed descent from Funan, hence their invasion of Lower Chenla to unite the kingdoms in mainland and maritime southeast Asia, even if for the briefest of times. We the people of southeast Asia are  inter-related then just as we are now.  beerchug.gif 



Malaccan, thank you for your RESERVATION in judgement. However, personally based on the available evidence, I THINK Funan have always been of the Khmer people. While there is archeological evidence of people of Malay-Indonesian stock inhabititing in North Vietnam, there is no such evidence in Funan at all. If the people of Funan were indeed of the Malays, then how come there are no disctinct malay people in Cambodia. The Chinese clearly recorded that the people of Funan were highly advanced who had libraries and brick-walled cities. The official language of Funan at the time of the Chinese visit was Sanskrit, but the Chinese called the kingdom instead by the very KHMER WORD of PHNOM or Funan. So why was that? Clearly this shows that the Khmer language have been spoken in Funan. In fact, the Khmer Kingdom of Chenla was found later than Funan, and it was found by the son of the Funan's King himself. In fact, the incorporation of Funan into Chenla was done by the grandson of the Funan's King himself. The whole Cambodia was of Funan Kingdom itself. The people of Funan are the ancestor of the people of Cambodia today. And they are Khmer people. They are not of the Malay stock. Champa had been incorporated by the Viets already for many centuries already, but the Chams still live on until today. If Funan was of the Malays, then there would be groups of Malays living in Cambodia until today already. The Javanese or the Chams living in Cambodia today were not of Funan period, but of the later migrating period. Some people said that the people of Funan were different from the Khmers because the people of Funan were maritimer traders while the Khmers only confined themselves to agriculture. That is a lie. The people of Funan engaged in both agriculture and maritime trade. The Khmers only moved in land because they were afraid of the Javanese superior mighty fleet. After the fall of Angkor, the Khmers moved their capital back to be nearer the ocean again. Again, the Khmers engaged in maritime trade with the rest of world. So clearly, just like the people of Funan, the Khmers also knew how to engage in maritime trade. If Funan was of the Malays, then the Chinese would have called it by the Malay language. However, the Chinese did not even called it by its official Sanskrit language, but by the Khmer word instead. Don't forget, the people of present-day Cambodia are the direct descendants of the people of Funan itself. And we are just Khmers and we don't know who to speak the Malay or anything related to it. In addition, the kings of Funan and Chenla were related all the way down to the khmer kings of Angkor. So that is the available evidence for us to consider. Again, there is no archeological evidence to show that there were Malay colony settlement in Funan, but there is evidence of Malay-Indonesian people settlement in North Vietnam.

Therefore, I conclude that Funan was of the Khmer people.
malaccan
Thank you for the input on Funan, VisitingAlien. I sincerely appreciate your views in this matter. I don't believe at the slightest on one's race superiority over the other and it isn't my intention to make Malay claims regarding Funan. Looking through the old topics, you can see just how heatred things were. My belief is that at the time of Funan, there were Malay people already living in the mainland. There are all these places starting witg Kompong in Cambodia, and there are thousands of these Kampong in Malaysia, which means village. As to how deeply tied they were to Funan, I don't know and haven't learnt enough about it. You make a strong argument about Funan being Khmer, and the word Phnom itself is derived from Khmer. As it is, I'm already proud to have a shared heritage with you by way of Sailendra. I'm trying to know more about Srivijaya which doesn't go that far back in history, and even this is difficult enough. To reiterate, I make no claims that Funan was Malay, but certainly that the Malays had ties to Funan from even back then, and this was stated in old Malay records.

Back to the topic, while the India-China trade was done via a land route at the time of Funan, Srivijaya's effective control over the Straits of Malacca, especially with regards to pirates, made the sea route a viable one during its reign.
VisitingAlien
QUOTE
... it isn't my intention to make Malay claims regarding Funan. ... My belief is that at the time of Funan, there were Malay people already living in the mainland. There are all these places starting witg Kompong in Cambodia, and there are thousands of these Kampong in Malaysia, which means village. As to how deeply tied they were to Funan, I don't know and haven't learnt enough about it. ... To reiterate, I make no claims that Funan was Malay, but certainly that the Malays had ties to Funan from even back then, and this was stated in old Malay records.


Malaccan, thank you for offering your view as well. It is interesting to note that while I used the word Phnom or Funan to claim Funan as belonging to the Khmers, I also find it fascinating about your pointing out of the word "kompong" to seek association of the Malays to Funan itself.

So I did a little research. I believe the word "Kompong" was a much much later addition to the Khmer vocabulary. While the word kompong means village in Malaysian, it is not so in the Khmer language. It simply mean river port or sea port. That is it. There are five provinces with water ports in Cambodia. They are called as follows: Kompong Som/Sihanoukville (Sea port), Kompong Cham, Kompong Chhnang, Kompong Speu, Kompong Thom.

So when you hear the word Kompong being used in Cambodian language, it simply refers to a water port or harbor.

You should also know that Funan was very famous for it sea port back in the day when it controlled the maritime trade. However, Funan's sea port was not called by the word "kompong" at all. It was called "O' Keo" instead. The Khmer word of "O' " means just like a port or a harbor or a protected body of water suitable for anchorage. So if Funan was of the Malays, then it would be called by the terms Kompong Keo already. But it was not.

So I looked futher. I found this interesting publication that talks about the Malays in Cambodia. According to that paper, the Chams started migrating to Cambodia after the fall of their capital Vijaya in 1471. The Chams migrated to Cambodia in 4 differents time periods. So this is indeed much later later than the Funan period which lasted from first century to the 7th century. In fact, experts say that the migration of the Malays to Cambodia must have taken place after the beginning of the 13th century. In addition, all the Malays in Cambodia are Muslims who claimed to migrated from their country of Minangkabau in central Sumatra. This clearly shows that there were no Malays in Funan. In fact if there were Malays in Funan, they would have been Indianized or Hindunized, not Muslims.

So that is why I argue that the word Kompong is a new addition to the Khmer vocabulary and the Khmers have denote it to mean just water port or harbor, not village at all. In addition, I again conclude that Funan has always been of the Khmers and not of the Malays because the direct descendants of the people of Funan are the present-day Khmer people of Cambodia now.

Please read about the origin of Malays in Cambodia below:

QUOTE
The origin of Malays in Cambodia is obscure. The Khmer texts refer to the Muslim community with the compound term "Cham-Jva" meaning Cham-Javanese (Mak Phoeun 1988:85). The term acknowledges the unity of the two people as Muslim, but also seems to recognise the ethnic difference between them. Moura could find no documentary evidence concerning the origin of the Malays in Cambodia, so he asked contemporary Malays if they knew when their community had arrived and where they had come from. The response he obtained was that Minangkabau in central Sumatra was the country of their origin (Moura 1883:I, 457). Since he had no information about any migration from Sumatra to Cambodia in recent times, following the shift of the Khmer capital from Angkor to the Quatre-Bras region, he reasoned that these Malays must have left Sumatra before the fourteenth century. Furthermore, since all the Malays who lived in Cambodia were Muslim, and since the people of Minangkabau were only converted to Islam early in the thirteenth century, Moura concluded that the migration of Malays to Cambodia must have taken place after the beginning of the thirteenth century.
The idea of "migrations" of peoples to account for the diffusion of culture was a stock notion of Moura's day and is somewhat old-fashioned today. However, it is well known that a large community of Minangkabau settlers colonised an area on the Malay peninsula across the straits from Sumatra by the fourteenth century. It may have been Malays like these who also made their way further north to Cambodia. This movement was probably not so much a migration as the cumulative effect of the comings and goings of many small, independent groups of traders. Minangkabau culture esteems the trading expedition called merantau (going to the river's reach) as an occupation for men who do not inherit property in that matrilineal society. It may have been such itinerant traders, who would have tended to settle along the river or at strategic river junctions in Cambodia, who met these newly arriving Chams in the fifteenth century, recognised them as their distant cousins and fellow immigrants. I suspect that the first emigration from Champa consisted mainly of Chams who had already had contact with Islam and found that they shared the faith with the Malays or Sumatrans they met in Cambodia.

The Cham-Malay Community in Cambodia
By the end of the sixteenth century, at a time when the Europeans were first becoming involved in Southeast Asia, we begin to find many more references to the Muslims of Cambodia, who, according to Le Clère, were recognised as the significant competitors in commerce by the Europeans (Le Clère 1914:348). At that time, when far-flung Spanish clerics and empire builders had hoped to see Indochina brought under the control of Philip III, one of them gloomily noted the influence of the "moroos," the Muslims of Cambodia,

… whom the tolerance of the kings of Cambodia and of the Tjams allow to build mosques everywhere, and who endeavour to proslytise and who hate the Christians to the extent of wishing to drink their blood (Gabriel Quiroga [1604], quoted in Cabaton 1927:II, 506).

According to Mak Phoeun, in the late sixteenth century two Muslim chiefs brought several pieces of artillery from Champa, that is Panduranga, and gave them to the Khmer king. In return for these valuable firearms and, we can assume, the knowledge of how to use the weapons or the promise to man the guns when needed, the king gave the Muslims rank and land in Cambodia to settle. These Muslims persuaded the Khmer king to invade Champa, undoubtedly to settle some score of their own back in Panduranga. At around this time, in 1594, the king of Champa sent help to the sultan of Johore to fight against the Portuguese (Lafont 1988b:71). Johore, at the southern tip of the Malay peninsula, had become an important Muslim trading stronghold after the defeat of Malacca in 1511.

While the Khmer army was on this Cham campaign in May 1596, the Khmer king was murdered in his palace in Srei Santhor by some Europeans led by a Portuguese, Diego Veloso and a Spaniard, Blas Ruiz. David Chandler points out that these Iberians used their understanding of the technology of firearms, especially the naval cannon, to terrorise local people and gain great influence even though they only had a hundred men in their command (Chandler 1992:86). The incident suggests one of the reasons the Chams continued to be welcomed by Cambodian kings was that they brought the Khmers up-to-date information and technology from their contact with Muslim trading partners in the region.

Veloso and Ruiz supported a successor to the throne who evidently displeased the Muslim community in Cambodia. Strife erupted between the Europeans and Muslims and many Portuguese and Spaniards were killed. The Muslims then, according to the Khmer Royal Chronicles, withdrew to Tbong Khmum (now Kompong Cham province), where they were in the majority.

It is at this period, in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, that the Cham-Malay communities became numerous and populous enough to have their own name for a riverside port village, kompong, be accepted as the common term for their settlements in Khmer. A little later, in the early seventeenth century, Kompong Cham became the name of the present-day city and province (Mak Phoeun 1981:131, 406).

The leaders of these anti-European Muslims were Po Rat, whose title po suggests he was a Cham, and Laksmana, whose name in Malay means "admiral," suggesting he was a Malay or a Cham sailor. The Muslims of Tbong Khmum proclaimed Po Rat the king of an independent domain in eastern Cambodia, named Laksmana as the uparaj or second-in-command, and named other Muslims to positions of authority in the rebel province.

The new Cambodian king, Paramaraja V (Cau Bana Tan 1597-99) was killed in the attempt to defeat the Muslim rebels and it was some time before the Khmer authorities re-established control of the region and drove Laksmana and his army back to Champa, where they perished (Mak Phoeun 1988:86; see also Cabaton 1906:36-37; Manguin 1979:269 n. 3, 4 gives a bibliography on early Europeans in Cambodia).

In the middle of the seventeenth century, the Muslims again rise to prominence in Cambodian politics. Using the military support of Malays and Chams, a contender for the throne killed his rival and became King Ramadhipati I (Cau Bana Cand 1642-58). According to the Khmer Royal Chronicles and contemporary European accounts, the king married a Muslim woman, rewarded the Muslims with favours and privileges, and converted to Islam himself, taking the Muslim name Ibrahim. In some Khmer accounts this king is called "Ram Col Sah" ("Rama who entered religion"). Contemporary European accounts call him "Rama the Apostate" (Mak Phoeun 1988:88; see also Winkel 1882: 483; Moura 1883:I, 261; Cabaton 1906:37).

The Muslims took advantage of their ascendancy to build mosques all over the country and to convert members of the royal court in Oudong to Islam, requiring them to wear Cham costume at court functions, consisting of a long tunic and a Malay ceremonial dagger, the keris (Mak Phoeun 1988:88).

At the beginning of his reign, in 1643-44, the Muslim king of Cambodia ordered the massacre of Dutch traders in Phnom Penh, probably with the help and encouragement of his Cham-Malay allies. Ibrahim's forces killed and wounded over two hundred people and captured two ships. The king was eventually obliged to pay an indemnity to the Dutch East India Company, but European trading ventures in Cambodia were halted after these events (Coedès 1966a:198).

The privileges of the Muslims at court understandably created a reaction among Buddhists. Civil war soon broke out and in the midst of the anarchy, in 1657, the Muslims of Tbong Khmum again erupted in revolt, along with the Muslim community of Siem Reap. The Buddhist faction at court called for help from the Vietnamese to suppress the Muslims. However, in exchange for this aid, the Vietnamese annexed Cambodian provinces in the Mekong Delta.

The civil wars of the country furnished them [the Nguyen] a pretext for intervention. The King of Cambodia had just converted to Islam under the name Ibrahim. At the request of the Buddhists, Nguyen Hien Vuong invaded Cambodia, captured Ibrahim and had him cede Bien Hoa and Baria [to the Vietnamese] in lower Cochinchina (Grousset 1929:617).

Chandler says that Ibrahim was taken off in a cage by the Vietnamese (Chandler 1992:88), and reprisals were taken against the Muslim community.

His death was followed by a violent reaction against the Muslim faction which had risen under his ambition and spirit of solidarity. Under the pretext of a revolt the new king had a great number of Chams and Malays massacred and compelled many others to flee to Siam (Cabaton 1906:38).

Mak Phoeun points out that not only Muslims fled to Ayudhya, but also Khmer relatives of the king, royal princes, civil and religious dignitaries with titles beginning po (meaning Cham nobility) or duon (from the Malay tuan--lord--signifying a religious teacher among the Cham Muslims). Among these refugees to Thailand, according to the Chronicles, was the Muslim wife of King Ibrahim, Anak Mnang Kapah Pau (Mak Phoeun 1988:89).

A few years after Rama/Ibrahim's death and the defeat of the Muslims, we find Muslim soldiers back in the capital, Oudong, at the service of the royal family. This time, in 1673, they responded to the call of the queen and the court to help defeat a usurper who had seized the throne. The Muslims carried out their task and replaced the rightful heir on the throne and then stood by as loyal bodyguards with the whole court grateful to them (Cabaton 1906:38-39; Mak Phoeun 1988:89-90).

http://www.cascambodia.org/chams.htm
TonyL
Malaccan, this is SRIVIJAYA topic. not Mataram, Funan, Champa Talktohand.gif
TonyL
And Cambodge ( back from banned, as if  people dont know hahaha )  Dont try turning  this into Funan topic you hear me?!!
malaccan
@VisitingAlien: Thanks for the input dude. To this day, the Chams have close contact with the Malays. Interestingly, Islam actually arrived in Champa around 1000s, based on stone inscriptions found there, much earlier than it did in the islands!

@Tony: OK OK, I'll get back to the topic! icon_redface.gif I was back in KL last week... all that Malaysian air must've given me an extra boost in ASEAN pride. Sorry icon_sad.gif

A bit more about Palembang, the capital of Srivijaya, based on The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia.

During the early days of Srivijaya, there were many competing centres that vied for dominance. One of the factors that accounted for Palembang's victory over its rivals was the agricultural productivity of the fields in the valleys of Sungai Musi and its tributaries. Palembang had the unusually wide, slow and silt-rich Sungai Musi behind it, and therefore a better agricultural base than any of its competitor had. But for comparison's sake, this was still not as fertile as the rice plains of Java. It's all relative.

On and around Bukit Seguntang, near modern Palembang (where purnomor comes from! ), some archaeological finds from the Srivijayan period have been made. This hill appears to have been the location of the ceremonial centre described in I Ching's account where 1000 priests resided and where gold and silver Buddhas were offered golden vessels shaped like lotus flowers. These bowls were known to be a specialty to Srivijaya, and as late as 1082 there is a Chinese record of Srivijayan envoys bringing lotus bowls filled with pearls and other precious objects as presents fro the Sung emperor.

Palembang also offered a fine natural habour and a river that was navigable for long distances. Even in the 19th century, the largest ocean-going steamers had no difficulty in reaching the city, which is 80km inland from the mouth of Sungai Musi. Even above Palembang the river and its tributaries remain navigable by small boats for many miles. This gave the Palembang area unusually good access to the Sumatran hinterland and the island's valuable forest products.
VisitingAlien
QUOTE
@VisitingAlien: Thanks for the input dude. To this day, the Chams have close contact with the Malays. Interestingly, Islam actually arrived in Champa around 1000s, based on stone inscriptions found there, much earlier than it did in the islands!


If Champa was indeed Islamized around 1000s, then this means that it happened in the 11th century.

QUOTE
There are semi-legendary accounts in Javanese chronicles relating to the Hindu kingdom of Majapahit which maintain that Islam came to Java from Champa. The dating of these events is difficult to specify, but they seem to refer to a period in the late fourteenth and early fifteenth century, that is, around the time of the founding of Malacca in the early fifteenth century and somewhat before the fall of Vijaya. The Javanese rice traders of Malacca were probably the main vector for Islam to Java, but we have also seen that Champa and Java had occasional marriage, diplomatic and cultural relations with one another for many centuries. William Collins http://www.cascambodia.org/chams.htm
malaccan
And back to Srivijaya.

During the days of Srivijaya, central Java was the most productive rice bowl of the island realm. Srivijaya's ability to control internatinal trade that was crucial to its power was dependent upon its abillity to provision the ships and feed the travellers who remained in its ports while waiting for the monsoon winds. While it has discussed before that Palembang's agrcultural resources were superior to those of any other mouth-river ports within its realm, it is unlikely that they alone were adequate for this task. Srivijaya relied on no small part on the rice fields of central Java.

During the heyday of Srivijaya, from the early 8th century to the middle of the 10th century, central Java witnessed a construction boom. The construction apparently began with a Hindu temple complex on the Dieng plateau and culminated with the Hindu temple complex at Prambanan. In between both time and space, was the Buddhist monument Borobodur, built by the Sailendras. They were predominant from about 760 to 860.

Borobodur


Prambanan

Thanks to Majapahitans for finding the photos. To reiterate what he'd said regarding the Matarams of central Java, The Sailendras were different from the other royal lineages in that like Srivijaya, they were patrons of Mahayana Buddhism rather than Hinduism. The arrival of the Sailendras in Srivijaya in the middle of the ninth century coincides with the Srivijayan decision to build the pilgrimage centre in Nalanda. And again in the 11th century, another monk's abode was endowed by Srivijayan monarchs at Nagapattinam, the centre Hindu Chola located on the southeaster Coromandel coast. What is curious is that, in both cases, the royal donors of Srivijaya chose to identify themselves as Sailendras, even after this Javanese lineage had taken refuge on Sumatra.
anakjakarta84
QUOTE (VisitingAlien @ Jan 18 2006, 08:13 PM)
If Champa was indeed Islamized around 1000s, then this means that it happened in the 11th century.
*


ISLAM came from Champa?? eek.gif And I thought that they weren't Muslims... haha
VisitingAlien
QUOTE (anakjakarta84 @ Jan 18 2006, 03:04 PM)
ISLAM came from Champa?? eek.gif And I thought that they weren't Muslims... haha
*


Well at a certain period, the Chams were not Muslims, but then later they were converted to Muslims. This is no funny matter as the Chams were almost wiped out in Cambodia because simply of their religious Islam faith. So think twice.
TonyL
Trading 'the wrong way 'could be dangerous in those days:

Most know Canton was sacked by Arab-Persians merchants 758 ad. Few know that in 680 AD the governor of Canton Lu Yuan-jui , and 9 others were killed by armed Malay merchants when he tried to cheat them.

Nevertheless ( or even due to it ) the traderelations stayed good.

( for story : 'The Nanhai trade' of Wang Gungwu p. 73-74, 1976 Singapore , also cited in Wolters works )
malaccan
^Slightly off-topic, but I have great respect for Wang Gungwu, currently the director of East Asia Studies at the NUS. He was born in 1930 in Surabay but grew up in Ipoh. He taught history in the University of Malaya, both the Kuala Lumpur and Singapore campuses, at Australia and Hong Kong. He has a deep understanding of the challenges and importance of Malay-Chinese relations in Asia.

Speaking about Canton, at the turn of the milennium, the king of Srivijaya did not just construct a monastery in south India, but sponsored a temple in Canton as well.The monuuments in Sumatra itself bear no comparison with those of Java, either in number or in splendour. Reading on this, some have argued that this can been attributed to the mercantile spirit of Srivijaya, as well as the fact that the soil of south Sumatra is generally poor, which did not produce the dense agricultural population with labour reserves necessary for the construction of great monuments. Hence, the Srivijayans sponsor monuments in countries such as India and China, which were its important trading partners. I think it's telling that even today, Malaysia is the biggest trading partner for both China and India amongst the ASEAN countries.
TonyL
QUOTE
Slightly off-topic, but I have great respect for Wang Gungwu, currently the director of East Asia Studies at the NUS. He was born in 1930 in Surabay but grew up in Ipoh. He taught history in the University of Malaya, both the Kuala Lumpur and Singapore campuses, at Australia and Hong Kong. He has a deep understanding of the challenges and importance of Malay-Chinese relations in Asia.


His book Nanhai trade was on my list. Written in the 50 's . Even in that time they already said that Srivijaya missions to China , recorded as tributemissions, were in reality extensive trade missions and of commercial nature. The confucian philosophy and peculair chinese habit to transform every act into a 'tribute to please the emperor' sometimes creates a wrong impression but the the socalled tributary trade system was merely just Big Business , as the ancient Ma Tuan lin 'complained'. One part of envoys exchanged gifts ceremonial way and at the same time the others un/ loaded the merchandise ( Tons of perfumes, Herbs, silk, animals , textiles etc ) .

QUOTE
Speaking about Canton, at the turn of the milennium, the king of Srivijaya did not just construct a monastery in south India, but sponsored a temple in Canton as well.The monuuments in Sumatra itself bear no comparison with those of Java, either in number or in splendour. Reading on this, some have argued that this can been attributed to the mercantile spirit of Srivijaya,  as well as the fact that the soil of south Sumatra is generally poor, which did not produce the dense agricultural population with labour reserves necessary for the construction of great monuments.

Some temples were build but kept moderate. They did establish SEA s largest and most important university where I ching and many others studied. But for the majority ' trading, raiding and sailing 'were more important activities than offering flowers and contemplating to reach 'nothingness'.
malaccan
Being so close to the seas of southeast Asia, Malays are ever aware that the ocean was a bountiful provider and a major means of communication, but its storms could destroy the lives and livelihood of those dependent on it. Tsunami 2004 being an extreme example. In traditional Malay belief, both the source of river waters and the home of the ancestral spirits were high on the mountain slopes; the highest reaches of the mountains were thus thought of as holy places and the source of beneficient forces that bestowed well-being upon the people. This belief persists to the modern-day in the form of'bertapa di gunung' and 'orang bunian'. The Srivijayan king drew upon this beliefs as he took the title "Lord of The Mountain'. He was also 'Lord of the Isles', and able to commune with the 'Spirit of the Waters of the Sea', a dangerous force that to be appeased if not controlled. It was for this purpose that the king threw gold bricks daily into the Palembang estuary.
MrBahaw
I'm sorry but I am having a hard time picturing the sri vijayan empire. can someone show like a map of this empire during it' peak?
jukoh
Wow, all these are serious reading - makes me feel like I'm learning history. You people are so knowledgeable it makes me feel bad for fooling around during my history lessons last time. I'll have to digest all these info and try to imagine how it was. BTW, any movies on this? It would sure make it more memorable.
Nusantara
QUOTE (MrBahaw @ Jan 25 2006, 02:50 AM)
I'm sorry but I am having a hard time picturing the sri vijayan empire.  can someone show like a map of this empire during it' peak?
*


I think explanation from IM answer many question, why Majapahit had Prambanan but why Srivijaya did not have something as big as like Majapahit had.

QUOTE (Iron Malayan @ Jan 17 2006, 03:35 PM)
Coming from a highly practical and warlike race, the Srivijayans were not crazy about their religions which were Buddhism and Hinduism. They didn't waste their time and money building religious monuments which generate no income. They preferred to build the biggest ships in the world to maximise return on their investments. So, even in their home territories of Sumatra and the peninsula, there were very few discoveries of Sriwijaya ruins . Thats why we cannot expect to find any physical evidence in Africa and Madagascar.
*
malaccan
The only map I have with me at present is this one taken from DR SarDesai's Southeast Asia: Past and Present.



Srivijaya was smack in the middle of the trade route between India and China.
purnomor
Why did the Srivijayan Empire collapse?
blob
QUOTE (rasibiduk @ Jan 1 2006, 04:12 AM)
Muaro Jambi site in Jambi

....there are at least 70 ruins in the Muaro Jambi Archaeological site by the river of Batanghari. Out of those 70, eight candis (temple) and one pool have been excavated and renovated, they are Candi Kotamahligai, Candi Kedaton, Candi Gedong I, Candi Gedong II, Candi Gumpung, Candi Tinggi, Candi Kembar Batu, Candi Astano, and Telagorajo Pool.

Various artefacts found in the site show that Muaro jambi is a legacy from the Buddhist Srivijaya kingdom during its heyday from the 10th  to the 13th century. This assumption is proven with the existence of Prajnaparamita statue and dozens Buddhist stupas in Candi Gumpung, ceramics from Sung dynasty, and macrocosmic and microcosmic concept which is a typical layout for a Mahayana Buddhist buildings.







sources/pics: www.trekearth.com, www.muarojambi.go.id, www.pbase.com/nlhpoel, www.arkeologi.net
*


Wow. Nice.
I love ancient buildings/ruins.
MrBahaw
thanks a lot malaccan
Majapahitans
QUOTE (Nusantara @ Jan 25 2006, 04:00 AM)
I think explanation from IM answer many question, why Majapahit had Prambanan but why Srivijaya did not have something as big as like Majapahit had.
*


Ummmm...., icon_neutral.gif Majapahit didn't built Prambanan, Mataram kingdom did.
And this Trimuri Civaic temple complex is far older than Majapahit empire. It's built in 9th AD.

Majapahit renovate this one.....

Panataran Temple

And built this...
Ruins of Majapahit Capital...

Bajang Ratu Gate

Wringin Lawang Gate

Oh yeah..., icon_smile.gif I got articles about Sriwijaya in my old History book....., wait I dig it first.... icon_wink.gif I'll share and post it..., hmmm...., maybe in my next post...
malaccan
^Nice photos Maja. icon_smile.gif And waiting for Srivijaya's entry from Indonesian textbooks! yahoo.gif Why don't you start a thread on the various Indonesian empires. That would really make an epic read!

QUOTE (purnomor @ Jan 25 2006, 01:26 PM)
Why did the Srivijayan Empire collapse?
*
People tend to simplify Srivijaya's decline with the attack by the Cholas, but as has been sadi before, it in fact recovered from this. Its demise was associated with it losing the maritime trade monopoly. Its trade monopoly diminished as the Sung dynasty expanded Chinese shipping and used other ports which stood independently of Srivijaya. Srivijaya's paramount position receded to the status of other ports with access to the Straits of Malacca. Partly this has been attributed to the high-handed practice of forcing ships to use and pay excessive charges for its port facilities.


Towards the end of the 13th century, the geopolitical map of SEA would be changed by the rise of the Mongols. They had destroyed the age-old Thai state of Nan Chao in 1253, and this further facilitated the southward migration of the Thais. This upset the Khmer supremacy on the mainland and paved the way for Siamese expansion into the Malay peninsula, with them apppropriating many of the northern Malay territories. And by 1290, Kertanegara of Singhasari had subjugated large parts of Srivijaya, especially including those near the straits of Sunda. Kertanegara was later overthrown by a prince of Kediri, who cunningly tricked the Mongols into helping him. Majapahit then continued the assault on Srivijayas maritime territories. So Srivijaya faced the assault both of Singhasari-Majapahit and Sukothai-Ayutthaya, which threw its vassalage over territories in the islands and on the mainland. The Malays under Srivijaya lost its hegemony, and will only recover it with Malacca, which would rise again to be the entreport of southeast Asia. And that is how it comes to past that modern Malay history as is collectively remembered by Malaysias is dated from Malacca, which coincides with the arrival of Islam.

QUOTE (MrBahaw @ Jan 25 2006, 01:44 PM)
thanks a lot malaccan
*
You're welcome MrB.
Sirikittong
Thank You very much for that summary of the Srivajayan fall, Mala, I truly enjoyed your writings; excellent posting of maps and old temple ruins as well.


My deepest grattitude.
malaccan
I just enjoy ancient SEA history, Siri. As school I used to daydream a lot when the teacher taught us about the various kingdoms in the region. Don't thank me, I just wanna share my enthusiasm with other people. I like Thai ancient history too, but I guess you know that already! icon_wink.gif

@Majapahitans/TonyL: maybe you can tell us a bit more about Airlangga's role in Mataram-Srivijaya relations?
tangawizi
From another thread in the Filipino chat, it wasn't conclusive if the Philippines were ever part of the Sri Vijaya empire. Can anyone shed light on this?
RatPunK
The earliest Sailendra inscription dates from 778 CE (the Kalasan Inscription). Sailendra power centred on the Kedu Plain in south-central Java, an area where wet-rice or sawah cultivation flourished and whose location made it secure from sea-borne raids frequent on the north coast of the island.

The ecology of the Kedu Plain required co-operation the allocation of water among rice cultivators. Local ruling lineages emerged to control and co-ordinate water in each stream or river basin. According to Clifford Geertz, wet-rice requires extensive work on drainage, canals, and terracing. A lineage which can mobilize labor from more than one basin can dominate other local lineages. The Sailendra mobilized labor across the boundaries of each basin by the use of symbolic power associated with the use of Hindu and Buddhist rituals including Sanskrit inscriptions, an Indianized court and the construction of a kraton, temples and monuments.

The dynastic name assigned by historians, Sailendra, meant "lord of the mountain". That title was probably chosen to recall the title sailaraja (king of the mountain) used by the kings of Funan, from whom the dynasty claimed descent. The title appears frequently in Sailendra epigraphy. It is not necessarily the name used by the ruling lineage. The Srivijayan rulers frequently described themselves as Sailendra in India for reasons which are not well understood.

After the formation of Srivijaya, The Sailendra maintained close relations, including marriage alliances with Srivijaya. The mutual alliance between the two kingdoms ensured that Srivijaya need not fear emergence of a Javanese rival and that the Sailendra had access to the international market. The Sailendra participated in the Spice Route trade between China and India, but their level of participation never rivalled that of Srivijaya. Intensive rice cultivation was the mainstay of the Sailendra kingdom.

The Sailendra covered the Kedu Plain with Vajrayana Buddhist shrines and temples celebrating and affirming their power. The Borobudur temple complex, built between 778 and 824 CE was the greatest accomplishment of the Sailendra. Borobudur was the first great Buddhist monument in Southeast Asia and influenced the construction of later monuments, such as Angkor Wat in Cambodia.

At its peak the Sailendra kingdom ruled the eastern two-thirds of Java, Bali, Lombok, coastal areas of Kalimantan, southern Sulawesi, and the Funanese successor state of Water Chenla.

According to the traditional account, the Sailendra kingdom came to an abrupt end when a prince from the rival Hindu Sanjaya Dynasty, named Patapan or Pikatan, displaced them in 832. The Sailendra prince, an infant at the time, was taken into the forest and hidden. In 850 CE that prince, Balaputra, attempted to regain the Sailendra throne. He was defeated and fled to Srivijaya where he took the throne of that kingdom with little opposition. The traditional biography of many Javanese kings includes a period of exile or hiding.

Some historians describe the Sailendra collapse as a retreat to Sumatra, implying that the dynasty also ruled Srivijaya. It is possible that Balaputra was a Srivijayan prince with a maternal link to the Sailendra and that his attack on Java was a Srivijayan attempt to annex the former Sailendra domain. The hostile relations between Srivijaya and Matram tend to confirm the thesis. The Sanjaya Dynasty went on to establish the Javanese kingdom of Mataram. The relative chronology of the Sailendra and the Sanjaya dynasty is not well understood. A similar problem exists in defining the respective territories ruled by the Sailendra and Sanjaya.





The Sailendra dynasty is said to hark back indirectly to India by being cousins to the Chandella dynasty, which left numerous monuments in India between the 7th and 8th centuries (most notably, the Khajuraho temples). Allegedly, a schism in the family occurred between those remaining faithful to Hinduism - the Chandella dynasty, which stayed in Khajuraho - and the Sailendra branch which, having converted to Buddhism, set off for Indonesia as early as the 4th century.
The Sailendra dynasty reached its zenith in Indonesia during the 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries. Their king was considered the founder of Borobudur; he bore the name Indra (Hindu god represented on an elephant - god of rain, monsoons, storms and winds). The fact that the founder of this most fabulous Buddhist shrine bore a Hindu name shows the ambiguity of the Sailendra dynasty's position between Buddhism and Hinduism. The shrine was actually signed or co-signed by Indra's son, King Samaragunta (also spelled Samaratunga). The latter turned the com pleted monument over to the Buddhist monks, who enjoyed royal sponsorship. Just as in classical India, in Java the dynasties generally continued Hindu names and beliefs. At the same time, they opened their minds to Buddhist doctrines, effecting a sort of unofficial conversion, which they concretized in the form of a gift of land, money or even pensions to the Buddhist monks who, in return, affected a tolerant and protecting attitude towards the royalty.

joost_leaki
QUOTE(malaccan @ Jan 17 2006, 01:08 PM) [snapback]1461406[/snapback]

Yeah, Funan was certainly the grand-daddy of all classical southeast Asian empires.
You know there are conflicting views as to exact ethnicity of the Funanese people VisitingAlien. Some say they were Khmer, others say they were Malay. This caused a lot of friction here on AF, from before I joined.


while i accpept they were malay, a european dude name codes was the one too say they were khmer because he was so eager to find the prodecessors of the angkor empire, they were more or less our ancestors because the first khmer empire of chenla absorb the entire empire and its people, unlike the thai who capture but no absorb angkor, chenla absorbed. The funanese did manage to escape, but only a few since the later kings of the malay empire in malaysia and indonesia claims descendants of the funanese dynasty.

p.s to rat dude, angkor was not influence by borobuudur since angkor was a map in stone of the hindu cosmos and cambodian architecture have been around as the same time as boroburdur.~
Sirikittong
I want to know more about the military of The Sri Vijayan Empire--can anyone tell me the type of weaponry--armour--as well as naval units the Sri Vijayans used in war? Is there a documentation of how large the Sri Vijayan Imperial Army was? 50,000? 100,000+?

Thanks!
flipcombatmedic
i thought the sri vijayans were Indonesians? why is it in Malaysian Chat?
Sirikittong
Sri Vijayans were MALAYS. Malaysia and Indonesia are both predominantly Malay states---as well Sri Vijaya once reigned over all of peninsular Malaysia--through the states of kedah and kelantan.

Sri Vijaya is truly a MALAY political phenomenom.

Anyone knows if Sri Vijaya ever expanded to the philippines?
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE(Sirikittong @ Jul 31 2006, 02:14 PM) [snapback]2111964[/snapback]

Sri Vijayans were MALAYS. Malaysia and Indonesia are both predominantly Malay states---as well Sri Vijaya once reigned over all of peninsular Malaysia--through the states of kedah and kelantan.

Sri Vijaya is truly a MALAY political phenomenom.

Anyone knows if Sri Vijaya ever expanded to the philippines?

i thought you've been to Bohol? "visayas" ring a bell? not by political measures but by cultural influences.
Sirikittong
I thought that may have been the reason for the name--but i just wanted to make sure--I know that Malacca had influences with the Sulu Sultanate--particularly in the tawi tawi group--but was not sure if Sri Vijaya had direct establishments in the central philippines--just outlying areas.

Any Malaysians/Indonesians with historical background on this-help.gif me out?

Terima Kasi
malaccan
Sorry guys.... I was going to let this topic die, cos I don't have much else to say but then again felt a bit obliged to reply as I did start this topic in the first place.

QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 27 2006, 08:27 AM) [snapback]1994358[/snapback]

From another thread in the Filipino chat, it wasn't conclusive if the Philippines were ever part of the Sri Vijaya empire. Can anyone shed light on this?
This was never mentioned in any of the texts nor was it taught at school. The first map showed Srivijaya's realm circa 1200AD. This one if from 800AD. Even at its zenith, it would seem that it's direct influence never did extend past Western Borneo.
IPB Image

QUOTE(Sirikittong @ Jul 31 2006, 08:07 PM) [snapback]2111937[/snapback]

I want to know more about the military of The Sri Vijayan Empire--can anyone tell me the type of weaponry--armour--as well as naval units the Sri Vijayans used in war? Is there a documentation of how large the Sri Vijayan Imperial Army was? 50,000? 100,000+?

Thanks!
Dunno Siri. As you know by know, I don't have much feel for the art of warfare.

QUOTE(flipcombatmedic @ Jul 31 2006, 08:09 PM) [snapback]2111944[/snapback]

i thought the sri vijayans were Indonesians? why is it in Malaysian Chat?
There was no Malaysia or Indonesia then. Our two peoples, especially those on the Malay peninsula and Sumatera, have close ties.

FINAL WORDS

If one word is to be used to describe Srivijaya, then it is this: TRADE.

Srivijaya was one the most glorious early kingdoms in southeast Asia, and yet relatively little is known about it. It should be of special significance to Malaysians as it was the immediate predecessor to the first sultanate on the Malay peninsula, Malacca, by way of its last prince, Parameswara. He fled from Sumatera as essentially, there were no viable spots he could re-build a port-city as they were all constantly under attack of Majapahit. Once on the peninsula, which had long been under the influence of Srivijaya, he found that Ayutthaya were making incursions. Help came in the form of the celebrated Chinese Muslim eunuch, Zheng He, known to us Malays as Cheng Ho. Thus Srivijaya's trading niche was continued on the Malay peninsula, initially by Malacca, then Penang, and later Singapore, all straddling one of the major chokepoints of the world's waterways,being situated between the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea.

Putting this in a modern context. So today, Malaysia continues to trade. Despite its small size, it's the biggest trading partner with both India and China amongst ASEAN countries. It's also the USA 10th biggest trading partner. Two-way trade between Malaysia and Srivijaya's eventual and current successor Singapore (whose name during Srivijaya's time was Temasek) dwarfs that of other neighbours. The language of Srivijaya, old Malay, continues in its modern form to be the national language of both Malaysia and Singapore, and forms the basis of bahasa Indonesia. Srivijaya may have been forgotten by most, but its greatness still echoes down the seas of the Straits of Malacca, teasing those who would only but listen.

THE END







tangawizi
QUOTE(malaccan @ Aug 14 2006, 01:51 PM) [snapback]2172866[/snapback]

If one word is to be used to describe Srivijaya, then it is this: TRADE.

Two-way trade between Malaysia and Srivijaya's eventual and current successor Singapore (whose name during Srivijaya's time was Temasek) dwarfs that of other neighbours. The language of Srivijaya, old Malay, continues in its modern form to be the national language of both Malaysia and Singapore, and forms the basis of bahasa Indonesia. Srivijaya may have been forgotten by most, but its greatness still echoes down the seas of the Straits of Malacca, teasing those who would only but listen.




I love that 'its greatness still echoes down the seas of the Straits of Malacca, teasing those who would only but listen'!!

We (Msia, Indo, SG) are maritime republics like the Italian Venetians who were the agent provocateurs of the European Renaissance. biggthumpup.gif




Let the trade winds blow and the SE Asian Renaissance flourish!
Bhaskara
Interesting thread, mallcy. One thing, though. Why Malaysians claim Parameswara was from Srivijaya?From what I know, Hyang Parameswara was the husband of the Empress of Majapahit, Prabu Kencanawungu. He converted to Islam, fled from his wife's Empire and then unified Malay Kingdoms on the peninsula...
Betong
QUOTE(Bhaskara @ Dec 11 2006, 06:08 AM) [snapback]2560272[/snapback]

Interesting thread, mallcy. One thing, though. Why Malaysians claim Parameswara was from Srivijaya?From what I know, Hyang Parameswara was the husband of the Empress of Majapahit, Prabu Kencanawungu. He converted to Islam, fled from his wife's Empire and then unified Malay Kingdoms on the peninsula...

Really????... I didn't know that. Parameswara running from his wife.. laugh.gif laugh.gif

@Mallacan. Nice topic. just read it. But still couldn't find who created this super kingdom??? And about Srivijaya as Buddists teaching center, I wonder why Srivijaya mention as center of Sanskrits teaching too. Why not teach in Malay???
Bhaskara
Yeah, he ran away, apparently adopting Islam as his new religion, got married with a daughter of Malay Sultan, and unite the Malacca peninsula. Am I right?

While Prabu Kencanawungu too got married again, with Damarwulan, and their dynasty lived on to be the Emperors and Empresses of Majapahit....

Sanskrit is the holy script for Buddhist monks, maybe just as Arabic to Muslims. That's why, although the Khmer and the Javanese has their own writing system, they would use Sanskrit for religious purposes.

How come Malay doesn't have its own writing system?
Betong
QUOTE(Bhaskara @ Dec 15 2006, 05:42 AM) [snapback]2572330[/snapback]

Yeah, he ran away, apparently adopting Islam as his new religion, got married with a daughter of Malay Sultan, and unite the Malacca peninsula. Am I right?

While Prabu Kencanawungu too got married again, with Damarwulan, and their dynasty lived on to be the Emperors and Empresses of Majapahit....

Sanskrit is the holy script for Buddhist monks, maybe just as Arabic to Muslims. That's why, although the Khmer and the Javanese has their own writing system, they would use Sanskrit for religious purposes.

How come Malay doesn't have its own writing system?

Never heard of story that u mention about Parameswara... Malaccan just a small place back then. From what I know Parameswara was Prince of Srivijaya and that enable him to create new empire in shorthest time because he have influance as Prince of Srivijaya. But before him, there was few small kingdom in the north of Malay Peninsular exist before them.
About Sanskrit, Srivijaya also mention as learning center for Sanskrit language not only writing according to Chinese historian I-Ching.. Why would someone want to learn Sanskrit from Srivijaya Malay. I suspect Srivijaya imported monk from India to make Srivijaya as religous center!!!!!

Malay maybe have their own back then but maybe that writing not popular as Sanskrit or Jawi.. biggrin.gif
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