Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that for the last 2200 years, China wanted Vietnamese to become Chinese, not vice versa.

You desparately need to understand something: :genius: It was the INFERIOR peoples who were conquered, annexed & assimilated who then became Chinese.

Yet, I think your jealousy theory might be right: We Viets are sooooo jealous of how the Chinese, Japanese & Koreans were defeated by the Mongols whereas we instead pulverized them not once, nor twice, but thrice. If you know anything about the Mongols and their tactics, they were Brilliant with a capital B in that they would defeat much larger armies/kingdoms by outwitting them. We , on the other hand, outwitted & destroyed Mongol armies which were much larger than our own. Hmm, go figure...

Also, can you enlighten me as to why are there so many Chinese in Vietnam? Maybe they find Vietnam to be a better place to live than China. What do you think? BTW, there are 1.9 million Chinese in Vietnam now, (Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/vm/People). I thought we threw them out back in 1978? I guess they keep coming back.

European travellers in past centuries have noted that they found Vietnamese they met to be intelligent and friendly, but found Chinese to be quite obnoxious. Look it up, it's true.

And here's a little tidbit of truth which I know & guarantee you will memorize and keep with you for the rest of your life:



Vietnam's literacy is now:




And what is China's literacy rate now?




Vietnam is only 86.2% ethnic Vietnamese. (Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/vm/People) Trust me, the vast majority of the illiterate are the minority groups that live in isolated moutainous areas of Vietnam, and so on.

China is 91.9% "Han" Chinese, (Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ch/People). The rest include Manchus, Koreans, etc., and yet still has a literacy rate of only 86%.

As seen in one of the links above, Vietnam had 80% literacy rate before the French, which means that when you take into account Vietnam's minority groups, ethnic Viets quite possibly had well over 90% literacy rate BEFORE the French came in. China doesn't even have that now, 150 years later! 2 2

Truth hurts... no?

And what was China's literacy rate in 1949? A woping 15%.
(Source: http://syakazuka.mydns.to/contents_eng/datas/data_01.html )

Now ask yourself: Why in Hell should Viets be jealous of a Chinese literacy rate of 15%? And this is 1949!

Japan's literacy rate in 1868 was 46% for males, and 15% for females. (Source: ibid)

I seriously doubt that any Western country had a 80% literacy rate in 1850. Trust me, look it up. You know how to read, right?

Economically speaking, you guys merely have a head start on us, i.e. in importing WESTERN technology, especially Japan. Japan began to industrialize by bringing in WESTERN technology back in 1858. S. Korea, China, Taiwan have been in relative peace since WWII. But for the last 10 years of the last 150 years, Vietnam has been either colonized by France, Japan, or divided and fighting each other and/or the US, or under a draconian embargo lead by the US after 1975. Don't forget we were also attacked by the Khmer Rouge in 1978 and China in 1979. BTW, the Khmer Rouge attack was really a Chinese attack by proxy. Yes, you Chinese are enormously to blame for the "killing fields" of Cambodia. (I'll provide links if you ask. Your wish is my command, O ignorant one.) We stopped those "killing fields"--this is the sentiment of the entire Western scholarship, not Vietnamese propaganda.

O, and don't forget, communist North Korea is nothing compared to communist Vietnam. Even you can see that. And they been in relative peace since the early 1950's.

You see it was really the French who kept us down, both directly and in the sense that they set the ball rolling downhill for us for the last 150 years:





The French even went so far as to shut down our factories for making guns, cannons & other things. BTW, these factories predated the arrival of the French as conquerors of Vietnam; they were Vietnamese, not European, built.

Also, French Viets outperform native white French in education and are significantly more likely to be college educated professionals--in France. (I posted a source/link for this in a previous thread.)

But don't you worry your pretty little head none: VIETNAM HAS A VERY BRIGHT FUTURE.


We just got started 10 years ago.

------------------------------------------------------

It's so peculiar that the entire Western scholarship has a near reverent respect for Vietnam, yet it is too often the case that breathtakingly ignorant Chinese such as yourself who constantly and delusionally think that you can talk down to us--we, who have beaten you time after time for a over 1000 years, with the last time being in 1979. (You do know that China was humiliated in 1979, right?)

Can I ask you something? How many generations are you from being an illiterate Chinese peasant? Honestly, I suspect it is not many.

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

-----------------------------------------------------

supernovasp,

Yes, I do realize that this new thread may be shut down soon. But in my defense and to my credit, I do believe that I put up some interesting insights and sources/links. And some razor sharp rhetoric.

we want ur land not ur people...

like japan, they try to conquer our land, but it is not for chinese people, it is for our great mother land....

Who are you trying to kid. Read your own history.

I think you need to get some education. That is a very ignorant thing to say.

In case you havent got it, i suggest you should look for posts about Vietnam by Chinese members.

Then replace all the word "Vietnam" by "China"; then come back and tell me how you feel.

Wow, you rock, Viet guys

woww. so proud of Vietnam

what's the point of this thread? who cares if who invade whose land and people always see vietnam and SE Asia as a tourist destination.

^ i agree. some serious inferiority complex going on here.

wow 1.9 million chinese in vietnam today? so what day want? finish there invasion from 1979?lol....... 2

dont forget china made vietnam vassal state for not a hundred, not five hundred but a thousand years, go figure. And mongols sent skirmish party to vietnam, they were concentrating on japan campaign .. but who knows perhaps if you provide a link I can change my mind.

and if we stop stabbing each other probably we can become buddies

Oh greeeeaaaat you are just greeeeaaat

i love you vietguy7
you are my hero

So give him your Đồ Long đao as a sign of ur love

anytime he wants it
he just needs to ask

LOL...
according to cia.gov
chinese literacy rate is 90.4
and vietnamese literacy rate is 90.3
and chinese males literacy rate is 95.0
and vietnamese males literacy rate is 93. something..
vietnamese guys are sux..........

Well done Viet Guy,

I agree with you 100%. I am neither Chinese nor Vietnamese.
Having visited both countries, I believe the courage and determination of the Vietnamese people is quite astounding and admirable.
Vietnam has a great future and I believe will be one of the powerhouses of the SE Asian region, despite what China wants.
Just because China is the most populated nation on this planet and with new found economic riches, they are starting to believe their own hype. Lets remember the Japanese with a population only a fraction of China was able to defeat and colonise China, so in 50 years with economic growth and military might what could stop Vietnam from doing the same? I won't even start on what the Mogols did to them.
China is only good at picking fights and invading nations that hold spirituality to heart like Tibet, but steer clear of volatile nations like Afghanistan or even Russia for that matter. So I doubt China has the will or the way to take on a determined Vietnam.

Keep it UP!

1. You're way out of your league. Don't even try to match wits nor words with me.

2. "Skirmish party to vietnam, ... concentrating on japan"--My Butt.

1st Mongol invasion of Vietnam = 25,000 Troops
2nd Mongol invasion of Vietnam = 500,000 Troops
3rd Mongol invasion of Vietnam = 300,000 Troops
4th Mongol Invasion of Vietnam = cancelled when Kublai died

1st Mongol Invasion of Japan = about 30,000 - 40,000 Troops, mostly Mongols & Koreans
2nd Mongol Invasion of Japan = 140,000 Troops, Mongols, Koreans, Chinese

Look up the sources yourself. I don't have that much time for you... The invasions of Japan were nothing compared to that of Vietnam. The Mongol Khanate ruling China was also busy sending armies to Indonesia, Burma, etc.

Going by the numbers, Japan benefitted more from Vietnam's victories over the Mongols, than Vietnam benefitted from the two "divine winds" that saved Japan.



3. Don't confuse the more or less Dongsonian Vietnamese who were very easy to conquer back in 111 BCE with that of the Viets who emerged in 939 CE. Though ethnically the same people, they were completely different. Dongsonian Viets lived in relative peace despite having very, very, very high population density in the Red River delta region of Northern Vietnam. They only engaged in minor warfare--hence they were easily conquered and annexed. After 939 CE independence, it was really only the Mongols dared invade a unified Vietnam. The Ming & Qing invasions were opportunistic invasions during times of internal termoil where one Viet faction invited them in. Both armies were eventually vanquished.



Amateurs talk tactics, the pro's talk logistics. Well, that's the motto at West Point anyhow.

The Chinese soldiers desserted in droves--went AWOL? Wow, I didn't even know that George Dubya Bush was in the Ming army?

The above article is by Alexander Woodside (Harvard). (He & Keith Taylor (Cornell) are the two eminent Western scholars on early Vietnamese history in the US.)

BTW, the Tayson army numbered about 100,000. Their Chinese opponents numbered about 200,000. The Tayson brothers routed the Chinese army. This is so typical of how Vietnam defeats overwhelmingly larger armies from belligerent bullies.

Remember, the Ming and Qing invasions were at times of internal turmoil where one Viet faction foolishly invited the opportunistic Chinese in.


4. China has stabbed Vietnam in the back countless times. But when has Vietnam stabbed China's back? Who knows, perhaps if you provide a link, I'll change my mind.

5. I'll respond to some of the other posts later...

1. Sureee I'm hell outta league for bending history
unlike "look up the sources yourself" I do have something
http://www.vwam.com/vets/history.html

for #4. Look up the sources yourself. I don't have that much time for you

Who are you tryin' to kid? They don't exist.

-------------------------------------------------------------



And how exactly does this link help your case? What part of history did I "bend?"

Next, you'll tell me that the Chinese were the first to land on the Moon.

^ can you read english ?

http://www.vwam.com/vets/history.html

For thousands of years Vietnam lived under Chinese rule through revolution and struggle , Vietnam has developed into the country we see today.

http://www.vwam.com/vets/history/vietnam.html
http://www.vwam.com/vets/history/briefhis.htm

Virtually from the outset, the Vietnamese were ruled by the Chinese, and they would continue to be until A.D. 938.

Vietnamese got many of its name from china, can you read english ? or you dont have that much time because you are busy trolling ?

I smell "the credibility of this website is questioned because vietnam never lost in battle before and we are the greatest military power since we beat mongol USA" type of excuse.

oh and "Look up the sources yourself. I don't have that much time for you" -> this one also good

I'm not blind, I know china have been defeated by mongols, defeated by japan, vietnam and british like 138057318051 times but vietnamese are the greatest because they havent been defeated by china ?

Hey genius, just to fill you in: I pretty much agree with this website. How exactly does it contradict any of my data and/or assertions?

For instance, how does any of the two assertions below contradict anything I've posted in this thread:



You have problems undertanding English, I see.

^

Yet, I think your jealousy theory might be right: We Viets are sooooo jealous of how the Chinese, Japanese & Koreans were defeated by the Mongols whereas we instead pulverized them not once, nor twice, but thrice.

we should be jealous with our vassal state for not 100, not 500 but 1000 years

I think you have problems understanding your own statement, dont push it every country has its own positive and negative aspect, it is clear why you pick china as comparison .. do you like it THIS WAY !

GDP per capita China $6193
pop China 1,306,313,812

GDP per capita Vietnam $2782
pop Vietnam 83,535,576

Saigon



Shanghai



am I clear enough ? youre intentions are very clear to me

You didn't see this above?



As for the GDP comparisons, I was actually going to post them in answer to someone else post... LOL.

You don't realize that China's has been at relative peace since 1949, and Vietnam has been a either at war or under draconian embargo by the up to 1994? Please read the very first post of this thread. You are completely confused.

China is still a 3rd world country. I saw on CNN about a month ago on how in big cities like Shanghai, signs must be posted in elevators of tall buildings that say "Do not deficate or urinate in the elevators." Apparently, poor Chinese peasants think it is okay to go anywhere anytime "nature calls." It's true, look it up.

At least 100,000 Chinese illegals sneak into the US every year. I thought China was supposed to be a great place to live?

You dont realize that China's GDP growth has increased rapidly since 1978 (free market), dont push it china is not better than vietnam but you dont have any right to say the reverse.

Like I said each country has its own positive/negative aspects.

you certainly havent been to china, maybe youre thinking japan ?



if this is true we dont need single child policy seriously, china will become 2nd russia with single child policy. oh btw thats my fancy way to say LINK PLEASE

You don't realize that Vietnam's growth has only been second only to China's for the last 10 years? LOL.

But China's been at relative peace for 56 years, whereas Vietnam was still at war up to 1989 with the occupation of Cambodia. (It's terrible IMO that Vietnam occupied Cambodia for so long, yet if they didn't the Khmer Rouge sure as Hell would have come back into power and reopened those "Killing Fields.") The embargo on Vietnam was not lifted until 1994 about. This means nothing to you?




Now your just talking out of your rear end. Japan is is light years ahead of China.



I posted links about this twice already. You can find the link in an old thread I started here in the Viet Forum on Vietnamese Academic Achievement. I know I got under quite a few skins of uppity Chinese by posting it. I also posted links in an old thread in the "others cultures" forum when an uppity Chinese was ripping Mexican illegals. I shut him up real quick. Look for this threads yourself, I don't have time. Or just google "Chinese illegals."

count the population, vietnam is not 1/10 china and think about unemployed uneducated peasants

please spit it out, basically you want to say vietnam is better than china ? it shows in your every single post



statement -> there are 100,000 vietnamese illegal immigrants every year in US

comment -> I have posted links about this somewhere before, you can find the link in WAYYY OLD thread in the !?@#!@? forum, because I dont have the link and I'm trying to find better excuses so hopefully everybody will forget about the "FACTS"
btw "Chinese illegals"

counter attack !!!

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/patrick.guenin/can...ws/arresthk.htm

Hong Kong police arrest 14 armed Vietnamese illegal immigrants
Hong Kong police on Monday arrested 14 armed Vietnamese illegal immigrants who sneaked into the territory on a motorised wooden boat, a spokesman said. The 14 Vietnamese, aged between 22 and 32, were rounded up in Stanley in the southwest of Hong Kong island. Police were alerted to the group after one of them stole 4,000 Hong Kong dollars (515 US dollars) cash and a walkie-talkie from a lifesaver at Stanley beach.

Police also seized 10 detonator pipes and five knives in the operations. In July, police also detained 34 Vietnamese who were armed with home-made weapons and knives when they landed on a western shore of Kowloon peninsula. Some 128 Vietnamese illegal immigrants have been arrested so far this year, compared with 170 throughout 2001, according to latest police figures. In June 2000, Hong Kong allowed around 1,000 Vietnamese refugees to remain in the territory, after the last Hong Kong-based Vietnamese detention camp was closed and they were unable to resettle them overseas.

The closure brought to an end a 25-year boatpeople saga which began with the fall of Saigon to communist North Vietnamese forces in April 1975.

Agence France Presse - October 21, 2002

Wow, you seem to have quite a knack for missing the point. No, I'm debating an obnoxious Chinaman who is claiming that Vietnamese are jealous of Chinese, Koreans, & Japanese.

Look, I'm done with you. You're tiring me out with your nonsense.

oh now every link i gave you = nonsense, but ..

instead of any SINGLE link i got "It's true, look it up", "I posted links about this twice already", "I don't have time" and "search google for: !$#!"

Don't be a douche bag, just look it up.

Since you gave me that link about 128 Viet Illegals in Hong Kong caught this year...

Here's one for Japan alone:



Only the "tip of the iceberg" are being caught by Japanese authorities. I wouldn't be surprised if more than 10,000 Chinese illegals in Japan.

Vietnam has 1.9 Million Chinese still, btw.

I'll still let you google the 100,000+ Chinese illegals in the US yourself. Trust me, I've posted it twice already. A lot of ticked off Chinese saw it.

DarkBlade, don't waste your time in here.

You were trying so hard to convince someone who has absolutely no value to you, so why bother?

Getting mad at somebody inconnu behind a PC screen is really not that intelligent, why don't you just shut down yer puter and have a nice day outdoor.