The flat earth disc theory, was made up of pagan ideals, believed in the world at that time, strictly a pagan ideal, not from the Christian Bible.


The Greek manuscripts of the Bible where compiled in 100AD, (see below) the Greeks in 400/6000- BC had no way to understand the Hebrew language, again the Hebrews where in captivity during the time, that Greek understanding of the world and it's events was happening.



The earth is a flat disc (Isaiah 40:22, 42:5, 44:24 Job 26:10; Proverbs 8:27), riding atop a vast ocean (Genesis 1:6 ; Psalm 24:2, 136:6). Stretched out above the earth is a dome-shaped sky (Genesis 1:6-8), cresting at its zenith and decending to rest upon all sides of the earth's horizons. The sun, moon and other celestial bodies float inside or upon the solid canopy (Genesis 1:14). Outside the protective canopy is a void, usually described to contain a fathomless sea (Genesis 1:6-7; 7:11).

Isaiah written 750 BC
Proverbs " 1000BC
Psalms " 450-1500BC
Gen " 1700 BC
Job " 1750 BC



There is no mention of a Bible reference.
Antiquity
Belief in a flat Earth is found in humankind's oldest writings. In early Mesopotamian thought the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean, and this forms the premise for early Greek maps like those of Anaximander and Hecataeus.


Hecataeus of Miletus. Hecataeus of Miletus (c.550-c.490): Greek geographer and researcher, designer of a world map and author of a book on chronology. The sixth century BCE was the fin de siècle of the old Greek elite. ... Amasia called Hecataeus a student of Anaximander. Chronologically, this ... by Anaximander. Hecataeus' map is described by Herodotus:

Again there is no mention of there belief being from the Bible.


Reconstuction of Ephorus Parallelogram 350 BC



By classical times an alternate idea, that Earth was spherical, had appeared. This was espoused by Pythagoras 550 BC apparently on aesthetic grounds, as he also held all other celestial bodies to be spherical. Aristotle 350 BC provided physical evidence for the spherical Earth:



One can look at the Bible dates and see there is no way, for the Greeks of Antiquity to know of Isaiah the prophet and his one line verse of chapter 40:22 which wasn't in any books until 100AD.

The Transmission of the Bible to English
Text adapted from Greatsite.com



500 BC: Completion of All Original Hebrew Manuscripts which make Up The 39 Books of the Old Testament.

200 BC: Completion of the Septuagint Greek Manuscripts which contain The 39 Old Testament Books AND 14 Apocrypha Books.

1st Century AD: Completion of All Original Greek Manuscripts which make Up The 27 Books of the New Testament.

390 AD: Jerome's Latin Vulgate Manuscripts Produced which contain 80 Books (39 Old Test. + 14 Apocrypha + 27 New Test).

500 AD: Scriptures have been Translated into Over 500 Languages.

600 AD: LATIN was the Only Language Allowed for Scripture.

995 AD: Anglo-Saxon (Early Roots of English Language) Translations of The New Testament Produced.

1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible in English (80 Books). Wycliffe had no access to Greek or Hebrew manuscripts and was thus totally reliant on the fourth century Latin translation of St. Jerome.

1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin.

1516 AD: Erasmus Produces a Greek/Latin Parallel New Testament.

1522 AD: Martin Luther's German New Testament.

1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament to be Printed in the English Language. (Worms edition)

1530 AD: Tyndale's translation of the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament is Printed.

1531 AD: Tyndale's translation of the Book of Jonah is Printed.

1534 AD: Tyndale's revised New Testament is Printed.

1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible to be printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha).

1537 AD: Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible to be Printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books).

1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible to be Authorized for Public Use (80 Books).

1560 AD: The Geneva Bible Printed; The First English Language Bible to Add Numbered Verses to Each Chapter (80 Books).

1568 AD: The Bishops Bible Printed; The Bible of which the King James was a Revision (80 Books).

1609 AD: The Douay Old Testament is added to the Rheimes New Testament (of 1582) Making the First Complete English Catholic Bible; Translated from the Latin Vulgate (80 Books).

1611 AD: The King James Bible Printed; Originally with 80 Books. The Apocrypha was Officially Removed in 1885 Leaving 66 Books.

1782 AD: Robert Aitken's Bible; The First English Language Bible (a King James Version without Apocrypha) to be Printed in America.

1791 AD: Isaac Collins and Isaiah Thomas Respectively Produce the First Family Bible and First Illustrated Bible Printed in America. Both were King James Versions.

1808 AD: Jane Aitken's Bible (Daughter of Robert Aitken); The First Bible to be Printed by a Woman.

1833 AD: Noah Webster's Bible; After Producing his Famous Dictionary, Webster Printed his Own Revision of the King James Bible.

1841 AD: English Hexapla New Testament; an Early Textual Comparison showing the Greek and 6 Famous English Translations in Parallel Columns.

1846 AD: The Illuminated Bible; The Most Lavishly Illustrated Bible printed in America. A King James Version.

1885 AD: The "Revised Version" Bible; The First Major English Revision of the King James Bible.

1901 AD: The "American Standard Version"; The First Major American Revision of the King James Bible.

1971 AD: The "New American Standard Bible" (NASB) is Published as a "Modern and Accurate Word for Word English Translation" of the Bible.

1973 AD: The "New International Version" (NIV) is Published as a "Modern and Accurate Phrase for Phrase English Translation" of the Bible.

1982 AD: The "New King James Version" (NKJV) is Published as a "Modern English Version Maintaining the Original Style of the King James."



The Word of God for Ye Ploughman ...

yup

How does the Bible describe the Earth?

Last time I checked...nobody insinuated that the idea of the Flat Earth originated in the bible. This is entirely irrelevant. How does the bible describe the Earth?

^ Skeptic said the Bible describes the Earth as flat, so Norman has been on a holy mission to disprove him.
However, I have yet to see anyone post the description of the Earth according to the Bible, other than Skeptic.

And he even gave specific quotes, too.
So my money's still on his interpretation.

Hello Skeptiguy, I thought you would be showing yourself one way or the other.

I know that you are so much better able to explain all things about a god, you don't believe exist, so you just have at it, lead your boys along, the blind leading the blind.

I will watch as you corral the newbie's, with your cunning and super intellect, on all things and especially the one thing you don't have a clue about, and that is................. God.

I'll be on the side dude.

But you're not on the side, Norman. That's what shiro pointed out. You are hell-bent on trying to prove that I'm wrong regarding the shape of the earth as described in the Bible that you keep posting the same nonsense over and over and over again. But, as shiro noted, you haven't yet addressed the actual issue.

EDIT: Oh yeah...and I haven't led anyone anywhere that their own good common sense would have lead them anyway.

[quote=skepticguy,Nov 1 2005, 01:41 PM]
[quote=Norman,Nov 1 2005, 12:59 PM]
[/quote]
Oh...... what is that noise....... do I hear a echo........ pleaseeeeeee Iiiiiiiiiiii neeeeed a lifeeeeeeeeee. oh never mine it is only skeptiguy.

please skeptiguy run along now.....

^ Good one, Norman! Ha ha ha! I'm bustin' a gut here! Ha ha ha! Just don't know what to do with myself! Ha ha ha ha!!

The reply button is for those who want to have an intelligent exchange,
with some give and take, not like someone I know, who seems to put everything in a rhetorical question.

Skeptiguy, I 'm going to try you out on something, I know by your past responses you just don't get it yet what I have been trying to say to you from day one.
Remember your pathetic( ops did i say that hard word toyou oh great leader) reply about coming to a middle of the road position on certain areas.

Now this is something that i think is real and alive in this following statement, but if I know you, you will drag your toys off again. This is a good positional paper much to my leanings., read on.

PS Skep when I statrted with you it was this type of exchange that I thought we could have, like below, so before you fire back something (@#$%^) i wanted to say something there. Think it through and maybe we can break through, and have a great talk, with the full understanding that I'm right and your wrong. just kidding put those toys down.

Theology of Minimums?

In all that has been said, the question may arise, “Are we not forced to accept a theology of minimums rather than organizing and arranging truth and bringing all things under the Lordship of Christ?” To this the response is, not necessarily. What we are arguing is that there is a central core of truth that has established itself through the centuries and been agreed to by all who name the name of Christ, regardless of the communion or denomination of Christianity to which they belong.

It is this core that is the starting point of our theological understanding. It is the minimums that identify us as Christian as opposed to something else. This core represents the minimum theological commitment of a Christian. But beyond that minimum there is within the theologian an inward push to organize all understanding and systematize it into a comprehensive whole. This compulsion, it could be argued, is an inward human compulsion. We at least in the West must see how things fit together. We must “dismantle the universe” whether it be physical or theological and learn how it works, and coax out its hidden secrets.

In an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation entitled “Clues” the crew of the Enterprise awakens after having been rendered unconscious by an energy field apparently for a few seconds. The ship is apparently unharmed although it was hurled several light years from its location. However, several small anomalies and inconsistencies lead Captain Picard to believe that something more sinister has happened to the ship and that Commander Data is somehow complicit in the affair. As the mystery unravels it is discovered that the ship has encountered a xenophobic alien race and in order to survive Captain Picard had to agree to have all memories of the encounter wiped from the consciousness of the crewmembers and all physical evidence eliminated. When the discovery of what really happened is made, the alien race again threatens to eliminate the Enterprise. Picard pleads the case noting that the reason that the ruse was discovered was that clues were left behind and that humans are compelled to figure out mysteries. It is precisely this compulsion to figure out mystery that has compelled modern science to its advances. It is the same force that compels the theologian to make further discoveries and advance theological understanding.

At this point we fall under the model of the theologian as explorer/scientist. We test, probe, investigate, and extend our theological knowledge and build a comprehensive understanding, an understanding that we believe is right and accurate. As we work we operate within a paradigm of understanding. And we seek to extend the paradigm. As we learn we develop a full orbed system that tries to incorporate all truth about God and his universe from any and every source under its umbrella. But eventually for a number of possible reasons, that paradigm cannot accommodate new data and another paradigm is proposed. That proposal is inevitably met with stiff resistance and the charge of heresy is leveled against those who would change the status quo.

Theology deals by definition with revelation. The ultimate database from which it draws is the entirety of creation. The subset database is the Bible, special revelation. The subset of special revelation is the salvific message of redemption. It is this that composes the “theological core,” the sine qua non of the faith. The theological enterprise is broader than the core; it seeks to organize and make sense first of the rest of special revelation and beyond that the totality of general revelation. It is as we move beyond the core that the conclusions become more tentative and open to interpretation and debate.

But when we step back from this system we have built, a system of maximums, we must recognize that our system arose out of a particular set of assumptions and pre-understandings that were universalized in our understanding and thought patterns, but in reality were not universal. Rather they were local and historically conditioned. That is not to say that all that understanding was wrong; it was the best that could be done at that place and at that time with the data and methods available.

To approach this question from another perspective, we recognize the core of the faith as having the status of metanarrative. It expresses universal and transcultural realities, although these realities arose out of particular historical events. The expansion upon the basic metanarrative encapsulates the timeless metanarrative (METANARRATIVE: A story, narrative or theory which claims to be above the ordinary or local accounts of social life.) within what is essentially a local narrative.

When conditions change, the local narrative51 may be challenged and even discarded, but this discarding is not a discarding of the metanarrative features encased in the local narrative. Rather it is the discarding of the local understandings/interpretations that have grown up around the core metanarrative, understandings that involve even the framework in which it has been encased.

The battle arises between those who have transformed the local narrative (be it Thomism, Lutheranism, Reformed, or whatever theology) into metanarrative and treat it as normative for all people, places, and times the minds of those who adhere to the systematization they equate it with metanarrative, and those who advocate a new (and as yet untested) paradigm that does not view the theological issues involved in the same manner or importance as does the old paradigm.

You are just incapable of answering the question, aren't you Norman?

I mean, who do you think you're fooling? I'll tell you the only person you're snowing is yourself. Others here see clearly that you cannot answer the simple question of: What shape of the earth is being described in the passages from Isaiah, Proverbs, etc. if you disagree that they are describing a flat, disc-shape world?

Keep dodging the issue, Norman. Only your credibility suffers.


EDIT: Let me be honest with you, Norm. I scan your posts for the word "earth" and if I don't find it, I don't even bother to read it. Case in point is your previous post. When you can get back on topic, I'll be happy to engage you again. Just answer the question, Norm. Just answer the question.

You seem to be incapable of not getting used to,` not having your way.

I'm glad of a couple things, I will post under new topics my findings, when all of the groundwork will be introduced.

I'm sure of one thing you will tear it to shreds, without any regards.

I'm disappointed that you did not read the paragraphs. Your locked into your own mindset, unable to break through to the real world. Unable to read the sign of the times. Wake up, the night is soon coming.
uh......... well I'll see you again....... where ever you pop up.

Again, no occurance of the word "earth" in the above post.

If you are "on the side," (and I take that to mean, refusing to answer questions, such as "How is Earth described in the Bible?"), then don't create threads.

You have yet to address the issue of how the Bible describes Earth.
Stop pushing Reply.

Mesopotamia Ancient Lands and beliefs. 4000-5000 BC

As one will read and study through the timeline, we can see that is was between 2900 and 1800 BC that we have some solid evidence about the people in this period. What is interesting to note, is that they addressed the issues of religion. They have no god in the heavens, their gods where represented by man on the earth.

At the end of this paragraph on Mesopotamia, one will see the beginnings of the Semitic peoples to follow: Babylonians, Assyrians, and, eventually, the Hebrews.

Point: No mention of a heaven for a god, no being outside of there existence, heaven, other planet NO where.

Point: They talk about the SUN, MOON and have a calender and mathematics,

Point: There is no evidence to sugest that this people group held a disc earth theory.

Point: The evidence is contrary, to a god sitting above the earth in judgement and looking at people as grasshoppers. Their gods where men, like those on the earth.

Point: There point is taken of no outside celesterial being inthere religion.

Point: WHERE DID THIS EARTH DISC CONCEPT COME FROM ?

Point: The entire disc earth theory rest on one verse from the book of Isaiah 40:22 written in 750 BC

Point: The Hebrew people where in captivity in 750BC, when Isaiah wrote this verse and it is the only verse, in the bible that uses the word circle. From this word circle, someone created a myth that the earth is a disc and there are people today in this chat roon in AF, that think the Bible is stating in ISA 40:22 the earth is a disc. @#$%^&*


5000 BC
Earliest evidence of human culture in Mesopotamia
~4700 BC
Hassunah period: earliest pottery making culture
~4400 BC
Halaf period: pottery culture with knowledge of metal
~3900 BC
Ubaid period: first well-known culture from southern Mesopotamia; the Ubaids give the first evidence of temple and other sophisticated architecture
~3600 BC
Warka period: first civilization after the Ubaid in southern Mesopotamia; the Warka period marks the beginning of the Protoliterate period in Mesopotamia
~3400 BC
Gawra and Ninevite periods
2900 BC
Pre-dynastic Sumerians
2750 BC
First Sumerian dynasty of Ur
2340-2125 BC
Sargon I begins the Akkadian rule in Mesopotamia
2100-1800 BC
Third Sumerian dynasty of Ur
1800-1170 BC
Old Babylonian period
1728-1685 BC
Hammurabi, author of the first known Code of Laws
1600-1100 BC
Staggered periods of Hittite hegemony over Mesopotamia
1520-1170 BC
Periods of Kassite dominance
1200-612 BC
Assyrian period
714-681 BC
Reign of Sennacherib, whose conquest of Judah resulted in the first deportations of the Hebrews
668-626 BC
Reign of Ashurbanipal, the most energetic of the Assyrian conquerors
612 BC
Fall of Nineveh
612-539 BC
Neo-Babylonian Period
~650-600 BC
Zarathustra, the founder of Persian Zoroastrianism
605-565 BC
Reign of Nebuchadnezzar; his conquest of Judah and subsequent deportation of some Hebrew peoples mark the beginning of the Hebrew Exile
539 BC
Fall of Babylon and the beginning of Persian dominance in Mesopotamia
546 BC
Conquest of Lydia and the Greek cities of Asia Minor by Cyrus
521-486 BC
Reign of Darius I; the Persian empire at its fullest extent, from Macedon to Egypt, Palestine to India
499-494 BC
Rebellion of Greek cities against Persian rule
490-489 BC
Darius I invades Greece on a punitive expedition against Athens; known in Greek history as Persian Wars
480-479 BC
Invasion of Greece by Xerxes
479 BC
Defeat of Persian armies by the Greeks
~400 BC
Beginnings of Mithraism in Zoroastrianism
334-330 BC
Conquest of Persia by Alexander the Great
330 BC
Alexander enters Babylon; final fall of the Persians and Mesopotamian dominance over the region; beginning of Hellenistic period
250 BC
Founding of Manicheism, an offshoot of Mithraism and Zoroastrianism, by Mani, a priest of Ecbatana









Civilization

Mesopotamia 2900---1800 BC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Akkadians
Among the earliest civilizations were the diverse peoples living in the fertile valleys lying between the Tigris and Euphrates valley, or Mesopotamia, which in Greek means, "between the rivers." In the south of this region, in an area now in Kuwait and northern Saudi Arabia, a mysterious group of people, speaking a language unrelated to any other human language we know of, began to live in cities, which were ruled by some sort of monarch, and began to write. These were the Sumerians, and around 3000 BC they began to form large city-states in southern Mesopotamia that controlled areas of several hundred square miles. The names of these cities speak from a distant and foggy past: Ur, Lagash, Eridu. These Sumerians were constantly at war with one another and other peoples, for water was a scarce and valuable resource. The result over time of these wars was the growth of larger city-states as the more powerful swallowed up the smaller city-states. Eventually, the Sumerians would have to battle another peoples, the Akkadians, who migrated up from the Arabian Peninsula. The Akkadians were a Semitic people, that is, they spoke a Semitic language related to languages such as Hebrew and Arabic. When the two peoples clashed, the Sumerians gradually lost control over the city-states they had so brilliantly created and fell under the hegemony of the Akkadian kingdom which was based in Akkad, the city that was later to become Babylon.


But that was not the end of the Sumerians. The Akkadians abandoned much of their culture and absorbed vast amounts of Sumerian culture, including their religion, writing, government structure, literature, and law. But the Sumerians retained nominal control over many of their defeated city-states, and in 2125, the Sumerian city of Ur rose up against the Akkadians and gained for their daring control over the city-states of southern Mesopotamia. But the revival of Sumerian fortune was to be short-lived, for after a short century, another wave of Semitic migrations signed the end of the original creators of Mesopotamian culture.

But history sometimes plays paradoxical games and human cultures sometimes persist in strange ways. For the great experiment of the Sumerians was civilization, a culture transformed by the practical effects of urbanization, writing, and monarchy. While the Sumerians disappear from the human story around 2000 BC, the invaders that overthrew them adopted their culture and became, more or less, Sumerian. They adopted the government, economy, city-living, writing, law, religion, and stories of the original peoples. Why? What would inspire a people to deliberately adopt foreign ways? For whatever reason, the culture the later Semites inherited from the Sumerians consisted of the following:


World Cultures Glossary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Legitimation of Authority

Mesopotamia Glossary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patesi
The Sumerians seem to have developed one of the world's first systems of monarchy; the early states they formed needed a new form of government in order to govern larger areas and diverse peoples. The very first states in human history, the states of Sumer, seemed to have been ruled by a type of priest-king, called in Sumerian, a ; among their duties were leading the military, administering trade, judging disputes, and engaging in the most important religious ceremonies. The priest-king ruled through a series of bureaucrats, many of them priests, that carefully surveyed land, assigned fields, and distributed crops after harvest. This new institution of monarchy required the invention of a new legitimation of authority beyond the tribal justification of chieftainship based on concepts of kinship and responsibility. So the Sumerians seemed to have at first justified the monarch's authority based on some sort of divine selection, but later began to assert that the monarch himself was divine and worthy of worship. This legitimation of monarchical authority would serve all the later peoples who settled or imitated Mesopotamian city-states; the only exception were the Hebrews who imitated Mesopotamian kingship but construed the monarchy not as a divine election but as disobedience to Yahweh, the Hebrew god.


The principal character of Sumerian government was bureaucracy; the monarchy effectively held power over great areas of land and diverse peoples by having a large and efficient "middle management." This middle management, which consisted largely of priests, bore all the responsibility of surveying and distributing land as well as distributing crops. For city living greatly changes the human relation to food production: when people begin to live in cities, that means a large part of the human population ceases to grow or raise its own food, which means that all those people who do grow and raise food need to feed all those who don't. This requires some sort of distribution mechanism, which requires the greatest of all inventions of civilizations, the bureaucrat. And to make sure that the entire mechanism works, the newly urbanized needs to invent a tool to make the bureaucrat's life easier: record-keeping. And record-keeping means writing in some form or another.


Mesopotamia Glossary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patesi
The first writings, in fact, were records—tons of records: stone tablets filled with numbers recording distributed goods. These early writings (besides the numerals) were actually pictures, or rough sketches, you might say, of the words they represented; this early Sumerian writing was pictographic writing. The Sumerians would scrawl their picture words using reeds as a writing instrument on wet clay which would then dry into stone-hard tablets, which is very good because it's hard to lose your records if they are big old heavy tablets. (And more permanent: when all the paper in all the books you see around you has gone to dust and ashes, the Sumerian tablets will still bear mute witness to the hot days when farmers brought grain to city storehouses and bureaucrat-priests parceled out food to their citizens while scratching on wet clay with their reeds) Eventually, the Sumerians made their writing more efficient, and slowly converted their picture words to a short-hand consisting of wedged lines created by bending the reed against the wet clay and moving the end closest to the hand back and forth once. And thus was born a form of writing that persisted longer than any other form of writing besides Chinese: cuneiform, or "wedge-shaped" (which is what cuneiform means in Latin) writing.


All this administration of agriculture required much more careful planning, since each farmer had to produce a far greater excess of produce than he would actually consume. And all the bureaucratic record keeping demanded some kind of efficient system of measuring long periods of time. So the Sumerians invented calendars, which they divided into twelve months based on the cycle of the moon. Since a year consisting of twelve lunar months is considerably shorter than a solar year, the Sumerians added a "leap month" every three years in order to catch up with the sun. This interest in measuring long periods of time led the Sumerians to develop a complicated knowledge of astronomy and the first human invention of the zodiac in order to measure yearly time.


World Cultures Glossary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abstract Mathematics
Record-keeping pushes the human mind in other directions as well. In particular, record-keeping demands that humans start doing something all humans love to do: calculating. Numbers have to be added up, subtracted, multiplied, divided, and sundry other fun things. So the Sumerians developed a sophistication with mathematics that had never been seen before on the human landscape. And all that number crunching led the Sumerians to begin crude speculations about the nature of numbers and processes involving numbers—abstract mathematics.


Hebrew Reader
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis Introduction
We know very little about the early Semitic religions, but the Semites that invaded Mesopotamia seem to have completely abandoned their religion in favor of Sumerian religion. Sumerian religion was polytheistic, that is, the Sumerians believed in and worshipped many gods. These gods were incredibly powerful and anthropomorphic, that is, they resembled humans. Many of these gods controlled natural forces and were associated with astronomical bodies, such as the sun. The gods were creator gods; as a group, they had created the world and the people in it. Like humans, they suffered all the ravages of human emotional and spiritual frailties: love, lust, hatred, anger, regret. Among the gods' biggest regrets was the creation of human life; the Sumerians believed that these gods regretted the creation of human life and sent a flood to destroy their faulty creation, but one man survived by building a boat. While the destruction of the earth in a great flood is nearly universal in all human mythology and religion, we can't be sure if the Semites had a similar story or took it over from the Sumerians. This is, of course, a question of contemporary significance: according to Genesis, the originator of the Hebrew race, the patriarch Abraham, originally came from the city of Ur.


Although the gods were unpredictable, the Sumerians sought out ways to discover what the gods held in store for them. Like all human cultures, the Sumerians were struck by the wondrous regularity of the movement of the heavens and speculated that this movement might contain some secret to the intentions of the gods. So the Sumerians invented astrology, and astrology produced the most sophisticated astronomical knowledge ever seen to that date, and astrology produced even more sophisticated mathematics. They also examined the inner organs of sacrificed animals for secrets to the gods' intentions or to the future. These activities produced a steady increase in the number of priests and scribes, which further accelerated learning and writing.

Sumerian religion was oriented squarely in this world. The gods did not occupy some world existentially different from this one, and no rewards or punishments accrued to human beings after death. Human beings simply became wisps within a house of dust; these sad ghosts would fade into nothing within a century or so.


World Cultures Glossary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Law
Among the inventions of the Sumerians, the most persistent and far-reaching was their invention of law. While all cultures have some system of social regulation and conflict resolution, law is a distinct phenomenon. Law is written and administered retribution and conflict resolution. It is distinct from other forms of retribution and conflict resolution by the following characteristics:


Administration
Law is retribution that is administered by a centralized authority. This way retribution for wrongs does not threaten to escalate into a cycle of mutual revenge. Sumerian law sits half way between individual revenge and state-administered revenge: it is up to the individual to drag (quite literally) the accused party into the court, but the court actually determines the nature of the retribution to be exacted.
Writing
Law is written; in this way, law assumes an independent character beyond the centralized authority that administers it. This produces a sociological fiction that the law controls those who administer the law and that the "law" exacts retribution, not humans.
Retribution
Law is at its heart revenge; the basic cultural mechanism for dealing with unacceptable behavior is to exact revenge. Unacceptable behavior outside the sphere of revenge initially did not come under the institution of law: it was only much later that disputes that didn't involve retribution would be included in law.
World Cultures Glossary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lex Talionis

Mesopotamia Reader
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Code of Hammurabi
Although we don't know much about Sumerian law, scholars agree that the Code of Hammurabi, written by a Babylonian monarch, reproduces Sumerian law fairly exactly. Sumerian law, as represented in Hammurabi's code, was a law of exact revenge, which we call lex talionis. This is revenge in kind: "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life," and reveals to us that human law has as its fundamental basis revenge. Sumerian law was also only partly administered by the state; the victim had to bring the criminal to court. Once there, the court mediated the dispute, rendered a decision, and most of the time a court official would execute the sentence, but often it fell on the victim or the victim's family to enforce the sentence. Finally, Sumerian law recognized class distinctions; under Sumerian law, everyone was not equal under the law. Harming a priest or noble person was a far more serious crime than harming a slave or poor person; yet, the penalties assessed for a noble person who commits a crime were often far harsher than the penalties assessed for someone from the lower classes that committed the same crime.


This great invention, law, would serve as the basis for the institution of law among all the Semitic peoples to follow: Babylonians, Assyrians, and, eventually, the Hebrews.

^ Good god, what a waste of bandwidth.

Norman, what did that reguri-quote have to do with the passages from Isaiah, Proverbs, etc.? I didn't see a biblical book mentioned once in that giant copy-and-paste.

Do you want to discuss the Mesopotamian view of the earth/cosmos now and how it relates to the Hebrew? If so, just say it. I"d be more than happy to show you the parallels between ancient Mesopotamian beliefs regarding the shape of the earth as well as those found in the Bible.

I hope you won't be to offended skeptikid, but this thread has outgrown you and your non constructive attitude,

I have decided to post my things, but for the most part you have shown over and over a unwillingness to try and discuss anything.

So your just out of the loop for awhile, I'm sure your followers will gladly go where you direct them and latch on to some other unsuspecting inquirior (sp)
Bash and destroy them if they dare say anything contrary to your take on things. odious amigo

Please, everyone. Read Norman's words which I've highlighted above. I hope they give you as big a laugh as they did me!

In the study of the Bible, many times we assume the Bible has said something as a fact and we never really check it out, we will at times just say, 'oh, it's in there somewhere' .

I want to give you some of this quotations that are NOT in the Bible.

1. God helps those who help themselves.
2. Spare the rod and spoil the child.
3. God moves in mysterious ways His wonders to behold.
4. Cleanliness is next to godliness.
5. Money is the root of all evil.


Point: This is what has happened when a myth/fable becomes to be known as a fact. This is displayed by those who state that Isaiah 40:22 is stating the earth is a disc. Normally these same very astute observer's, would not entertain such a fable as being truth.

Point: Now we will read the three translations of Isaiah chapter 40. to understand the context of the chapter.

Point: The two (Septuagint and Vulgate) of the folowing versions, where used to make the third, the current KJV/NKJV


Point: I'm giving you Three translations of Isaiah 40, one is by theSeptuagint Greek to English, then English & Latin Vulgate from the Catholic's and the other by the New King James Version from King James translators 1600 AD.

Point: The Septuagint, written in Greek and the Latin Vulgate written, in Latin, where translated in 1600 AD into the KJV (there where earlier versions, it is the KJV & NKJV that is being used here in this paper).

Point: The purpose is for one to read from the source material, the the ancient translators had in 1600 that is (howbeit it is only in English). To read all three in arriving at the context of Isaiah 40

Point: Is has been shown so for, in this discussion, in different postings, that the myth/fable assumption that somehow now, in the year 2005 that Isaiah 40:22 is stating the earth is a disc is false.

The following have been examined:

A. ETYMOLOGY:

The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity.

B. Methodologies:

A body of practices, procedures, and rules used by those who work in a discipline or engage in an inquiry; a set of working methods: the methodology of genetic studies; a poll marred by faulty methodology.
The study or theoretical analysis of such working methods.
The branch of logic that deals with the general principles of the formation of knowledge.
Usage Problem Means, technique, or procedure; method.

c. TAXONOMY:

The science, laws, or principles of classification; systematics.
Division into ordered groups or categories.


d. ESCHATOLOGY

The branch of theology that is concerned with the end of the world or of humankind.
A belief or a doctrine concerning the ultimate or final things, such as death, the destiny of humanity, the Second Coming, or the Last Judgment.


e. Knostic

Secret teachings.


f. EXEGESES

Critical explanation or analysis, especially of a text.



Below now is the Septuagint originally written in Greek, of Isaiah Chapter 40.


Chapter 40
40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith God.

2 Speak, ye priests, to the heart of Jerusalem; comfort her, for her humiliation is accomplished, her sin is put away: for she has received of the Lord’s hand double the amount of her sins.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.

4 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low: and all the crooked ways shall become straight, and the rough places plains.

5 And the glory of the Lord shall appear, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God: for the Lord has spoken it.

6 The voice of one saying, Cry; and I said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass:

7 8 The grass withers, and the flower fades: but the word of our God abides for ever.

9 O thou that bringest glad tidings to Zion, go up on the high mountain; lift up thy voice with strength, thou that bringest glad tidings to Jerusalem; lift it up, fear not; say unto the cities of Juda, Behold your God!

10 Behold the Lord! The Lord is coming with strength, and his arm is with power: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

11 He shall tend his flock as a shepherd, and he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and shall soothe them that are with young.

12 Who has measured the water in his hand, and the heaven with a span, and all the earth in a handful? Who has weighed the mountains in scales, and the forests in a balance?

13 Who has known the mind of the Lord? and who has been his counsellor, to instruct him?

14 Or with whom has he taken counsel, and he has instructed him? or who has taught him judgement, or who has taught him the way of understanding;

15 since all the nations are counted as a drop from a bucket, and as the turning of a balance, and shall be counted as spittle?

16 And Libanus is not enough to burn, nor all beasts enough for a whole-burnt offering:

17 and all the nations are as nothing, and counted as nothing.

18 To whom have ye compared the Lord? and with what likeness have ye compared him?

19 Has not the artificer made an image, or the goldsmith having melted gold, gilt it over, and made it a similitude?

20 For the artificer chooses out a wood that will not rot, and will wisely enquire how he shall set up his image, and that so that it should not be moved.

21 Will ye not know? will ye not hear? has it not been told you of old? Have ye not known the foundations of the earth?

22 It is he that comprehends the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants in it are as grasshoppers; he that set up the heaven as a chamber, and stretched it out as a tent to dwell in:

23 he that appoints princes to rule as nothing, and has made the earth as nothing.


24 For they shall not plant, neither shall they sow, neither shall their root be fixed in the ground: he has blown upon them, and they are withered, and a storm shall carry them away like sticks.

25 Now then to whom have ye compared me, that I may be exalted? saith the Holy One.

26 Lift up your eyes on high, and see, who has displayed all these things? even he that brings forth his host by number: he shall call them all by name by means of his great glory, and by the power of his might: nothing has escaped thee.

27 For say not thou, O Jacob, and why hast thou spoken, Israel, saying, My way is hid from God, and my God has taken away my judgement, and has departed?

28 And now, hast thou not known? hast thou not heard? the eternal God, the God that formed the ends of the earth, shall not hunger, nor be weary, and there is no searching of his understanding.

29 He gives strength to the hungry, and sorrow to them that are not suffering.

30 For the young men shall hunger, and the youths shall be weary, and the choice men shall be powerless:

31 but they that wait on God shall renew their strength; they shall put forth new feathers like eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; they shall walk, and not hunger.



Below now is the Vulgate originally written in Latin, of Isaiah Chapter 40.

Point: What is the context in this chapter.


40 1 Be comforted, be comforted, my people, saith your God. consolamini consolamini populus meus dicit Deus vester

40 2 Speak ye to the heart of Jerusalem, and call to her: for her evil is come to an end, her iniquity is forgiven: she hath received of the hand of the Lord double for all her sins. loquimini ad cor Hierusalem et avocate eam quoniam conpleta est malitia eius dimissa est iniquitas illius suscepit de manu Domini duplicia pro omnibus peccatis suis

40 3 The voice of one crying in the desert: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the wilderness the paths of our God. vox clamantis in deserto parate viam Domini rectas facite in solitudine semitas Dei nostri

40 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough ways plain. omnis vallis exaltabitur et omnis mons et collis humiliabitur et erunt prava in directa et aspera in vias planas

40 5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh together shall see, that the mouth of the Lord hath spoken. et revelabitur gloria Domini et videbit omnis caro pariter quod os Domini locutum est

40 6 The voice of one, saying: Cry. And I said: What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the glory thereof as the flower of the field. vox dicentis clama et dixi quid clamabo omnis caro faenum et omnis gloria eius quasi flos agri

40 7 The grass is withered, and the flower is fallen, because the spirit of the Lord hath blown upon it. Indeed the people is grass: exsiccatum est faenum et cecidit flos quia spiritus Domini sufflavit in eo vere faenum est populus

40 8 The grass is withered, and the flower is fallen: but the word of our Lord endureth for ever. exsiccatum est faenum cecidit flos verbum autem Dei nostri stabit in aeternum

40 9 Get thee up upon a high mountain, thou that bringest good tidings to Sion: lift up thy voice with strength, thou that bringest good tidings to Jerusalem: lift it up, fear not. Say to the cities of Juda: Behold your God: super montem excelsum ascende tu quae evangelizas Sion exalta in fortitudine vocem tuam quae evangelizas Hierusalem exalta noli timere dic civitatibus Iudae ecce Deus vester

40 10 Behold the Lord God shall come with strength, and his arm shall rule: Behold his reward is with him and his work is before him. ecce Dominus Deus in fortitudine veniet et brachium eius dominabitur ecce merces eius cum eo et opus illius coram eo

40 11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather together the lambs with his arm, and shall take them up in his bosom, and he himself shall carry them that are with young. sicut pastor gregem suum pascet in brachio suo congregabit agnos et in sinu suo levabit fetas ipse portabit

40 12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and weighed the heavens with his palm? who hath poised with three fingers the bulk of the earth, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? quis mensus est pugillo aquas et caelos palmo ponderavit quis adpendit tribus digitis molem terrae et libravit in pondere montes et colles in statera

40 13 Who hath forwarded the spirit of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor, and hath taught him? quis adiuvit spiritum Domini aut quis consiliarius eius fuit et ostendit illi

40 14 With whom hath he consulted, and who hath instructed him, and taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and shewed him the way of understanding? cum quo iniit consilium et instruxit eum et docuit eum semitam iustitiae et erudivit eum scientiam et viam prudentiae ostendit illi

40 15 Behold the Gentiles are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the smallest grain of a balance: behold the islands are as a little dust. ecce gentes quasi stilla situlae et quasi momentum staterae reputatae sunt ecce insulae quasi pulvis exiguus

40 16 And Libanus shall not be enough to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. et Libanus non sufficiet ad succendendum et animalia eius non sufficient ad holocaustum

40 17 All nations are before him as if they had no being at all, and are counted to him as nothing, and vanity. omnes gentes quasi non sint sic sunt coram eo et quasi nihilum et inane reputatae sunt ei

40 18 To whom then have you likened God? or what image will you make for him? cui ergo similem fecistis Deum aut quam imaginem ponetis ei

40 19 Hath the workman cast a graven statue? or hath the goldsmith formed it with gold, or the silversmith with plates of silver? numquid sculptile conflavit faber aut aurifex auro figuravit illud et lamminis argenteis argentarius

40 20 He hath chosen strong wood, and that will not rot: the skilful workman seeketh how he may set up an idol that may not be moved. forte lignum et inputribile elegit artifex sapiens quaerit quomodo statuat simulacrum quod non moveatur

40 21 Do you not know? hath it not been heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have you not understood the foundations of the earth? numquid non scietis numquid non audietis numquid non adnuntiatum est ab initio vobis numquid non intellexistis fundamenta terrae

40 22 It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum

40 23 He that bringeth the searchers of secrets to nothing, that hath made the judges of the earth as vanity. qui dat secretorum scrutatores quasi non sint iudices terrae velut inane fecit

40 24 And surely their stock was neither planted, nor sown, nor rooted in the earth: suddenly he hath blown upon them, and they are withered, and a whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. et quidem neque plantatos neque satos neque radicato in terra trunco eorum repente flavit in eos et aruerunt et turbo quasi stipulam auferet eos

40 25 And to whom have ye likened me, or made me equal, saith the Holy One? et cui adsimilastis me et adaequastis dicit Sanctus

40 26 Lift up your eyes on high, and see who hath created these things: who bringeth out their host by number, and calleth them all by their names: by the greatness of his might, and strength, and power, not one of them was missing. levate in excelsum oculos vestros et videte quis creavit haec qui educit in numero militiam eorum et omnes ex nomine vocat prae multitudine fortitudinis et roboris virtutisque eius neque unum reliquum fuit

40 27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel: My way is hid from the Lord, and my judgment is passed over from my God? quare dicis Iacob et loqueris Israhel abscondita est via mea a Domino et a Deo meo iudicium meum transibit

40 28 Knowest thou not, or hast thou not heard? the Lord is the everlasting God, who hath created the ends of the earth: he shall not faint, nor labour, neither is there any searching out of his wisdom. numquid nescis aut non audisti Deus sempiternus Dominus qui creavit terminos terrae non deficiet neque laborabit nec est investigatio sapientiae eius

40 29 It is he that giveth strength to the weary, and increaseth force and might to them that are not. qui dat lasso virtutem et his qui non sunt fortitudinem et robur multiplicat
40 30 You shall faint, and labour, and young men shall fall by infirmity. deficient pueri et laborabunt et iuvenes in infirmitate cadent

40 31 But they that hope in the Lord shall renew their strength, they shall take wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint. qui autem sperant in Domino mutabunt fortitudinem adsument pinnas sicut aquilae current et non laborabunt ambulabunt et non deficient



Below now is the New King James version written in English, of Isaiah Chapter 40.

What is the context in this chapter?


Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.


Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.


Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.


Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:


Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].


Isa 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh [is] grass, and all the goodliness thereof [is] as the flower of the field:


Isa 40:7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people [is] grass.


Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isa 40:9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift [it] up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!


Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong [hand], and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward [is] with him, and his work before him.


Isa 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young.


Isa 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?


Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him?


Isa 40:14 With whom took he counsel, and [who] instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?


Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations [are] as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.


Isa 40:16 And Lebanon [is] not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.


Isa 40:17 All nations before him [are] as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.


Isa 40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?


Isa 40:19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.


Isa 40:20 He that [is] so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree [that] will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, [that] shall not be moved.


Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?


Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:


Isa 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.


Isa 40:24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.


Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.


Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth.


Isa 40:27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?


Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, [that] the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? [there is] no searching of his understanding.


Isa 40:29 He giveth power to the faint; and to [them that have] no might he increaseth strength.


Isa 40:30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:


Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew [their] strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; [and] they shall walk, and not faint.

^ Bravo! Once again all you've done is reprint text without benefit of an argument!

when Galileo tried to prove that the sun does not revolve around the earth, the Church (closely tied with the crown) put him in jail.

Yes, Christians are so forgiving...

wow
all that crap
and no mention of what the Earth looks like

Mazzu is out of his league here......


Which leads me to the (logical) conclusion, based on his posts, as well as the topic title: "Disc, Flat Earth Theory", Pagan in origin not in Christian Bible, that Norman believes the Bible describes the Earth as flat, but that they took that information from a pre-existing source.

What a bunch of jibber-jabber. I don't have time for this nonsense! I don't understand your cluster of a post either. Care to make cliffs notes for me?

That's exactly my take on it.

^ Good.
It's not just the Crazy Pills, then.

I think I've been taking too many lately.

Which, of course, isn't too far from the truth!

that makes much more perception now chicken eggs