What were the conditions that locked your consciousness into that specific body which is yours? yes.. look down... can you see it? thats your body... so why are you in that body... its because you have something called a soul... and it was destined to be there

EDIT: just skip to here, on page 6.. http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...dpost&p=1242499

It's up you YOU godsuckers to prove to us that there is a soul.

We had this discussion back in Toronto and I believe the outcome of the debate was that there is NO SOUL.

^ you constantly resorted to logical fallacies, came to that conclusion then refused to listen... so i failed to convince you... oh well, too bad for you...

No, I failed to convince YOU.
I think you have at least a little clue about how rediculous your claims are. But somehow u decided to hang on to them.


Ok, I will ask you this question once again:
Can we create humans if our souls were given by you "God"?

you're asking the wrong question... we can't prove that other people have souls because even without a state of awareness(due to a lack of a soul), they would act the same as a person with a state of awareness... kinda like how we can potentially program a robot to mimick human behavior and response... for all we know some people may not have souls, but we have to assume they do.

now i will ask the question again... what were the conditions that locked your consciousness/awareness/perception into that specific body which is yours?

Why do souls exist?

Surely there can't be materialists existing in this day and age.

Same reason this universe exists.

And what reason is that?

^lets first established that there is a soul before we figure out why.

Define what we are looking for first.

How about we prove its existence through prerequisite reasoning.

IF soul exists, what it's purpose? Why did it come to being?

Soul = human spirit = an entity that commands individual human bodies while they are alive.

Geez, people need reasoning and science these days before spreading around superstitions.

Here is why it is totally irrational that souls exist and why there is absolutely no need for them.


Body Soul Problems
http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/hg.html

The soul and the emotional self
http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/hh.html

i disagree... for this one we should go step by step... there is a problem... you are a singular entity in control of a single body... you percieve the world through the body you see when you look down... so list some possibilities on what the conditions were that gave rise to this singular perception... forget about what my conclusion about the soul was for now...

You need to study Neurology, not pseudoscience.

Just answer my question... is our perception triggered by genetics? some sort of random brain arrangement? are these possibilities even rational? this is a challenge to atheists... give me a reasonable explaination.

Alright enlighten me then.

i just want people to recognize that this is an anomaly... its one of those walls science will never fully be able to explain.

the soul is kind of an artificial constant that arises out to necessity... kinda like gravitational field strength constants... its true nature is uncertain.

Define soul in terms where it becomes either verifiable or a necessity.

Science cannot answer this:
so we come up with a vague definition of a soul:
why our consciousness was locked up in a single specific body is a good question... but you cannot deny that it happened.

Good, now can we get on with the 'why'?

Neurology does offer answers. We are nothing more than matter. What is wrong with this explanation?

Then you should be able to explain my new question

What were the neurological conditions that locked your consciousness into that specific body which is yours?

Your consciousness is a result of your bodily matter. Not the otherway around.

i don't think you are looking at the question in the same frame as me.

What were the neurological conditions that locked your perception/awareness into that specific body of yours?

perception/awareness being the "where" you perceive the world from... your body follows your perception whereever you go...

would your "perception of the world" exist if your parents didn't meet? yes or no? can this even be answered when you don't even know the neurological conditions that locked your perception/awareness into your body in the first place?

Well I am answering your question as you put it. I admit that it isn't very clear but I will try again.

Once again a materialist would tell you that you have it formulated incorrectly even at this stage by saying "you body follows your perception wherever you go" when it should be vice versa with your perception following the body.



Perception of the world is horribley subjective terminology that should be thrown out of the window in favour of something a little more scientific and solid. There isn't a "locking in" process when the perception/awareness is directly caused by the existence of a body.

To say that you are your body and nothing more already explains the locking in process. What you haven't done is prove that the materialistic explanation has flaws and until you do that...there isn't a discussion as such.

even if it is subjective... you cannot deny that you have a "perception of the world".

also, you cannot deny that you're locked into a single body.

this is so simple... all the evidence is literally right before your eyes... all you need to do is analyze yourself and notice it... please think deeply on this.

Explain how this is works.

I am not denying that whatsoever.



I can deny your use of words if they are incorrect. The way you are arguing is as if the self exists externally or prior to the body which is basically going to be the conclusion of your argument. If you use the proposition in the premises then you are begging the question.

Your perception of the world is confined to your own body which at this point has not been shown to be anything other than accounted for by materialist thought. You are not any other body.



I'm arguing the points as you are giving them. If you are making errors or not getting your message across adequately...you should question yourself first.



It is what empirical evidence would have us believe. There is no detection of a soul (or whatever substance you wish to argue) in the physical body so therefore one takes it that it does not exist until evidence is offered to the contrary. As such, to take the materialist position is to take the default position. It requires no further argument until an error is shown in it.

i still disagree with you... clearly you're seeing this from a different perspective than me...

lets forget everything about and start from the top... forget about souls and think about this.

What conditions caused me to be in control of this particular body? why is my mind here? is it by random chance? was it based on genes? or brain alignment? analyze this from a personal perspective...

Let me just rephrase your questions a little. Do you mean:

What conditions cause an unique sense of identity to be in control of the corresponding body? Why does this unique sense of identity exist? Is it by random chance, or based on genes? Etc.

Are those right?

I think what you're saying is what im trying to get at.

Then I have a question regarding this issue, how do you know what we feel is strictly independent and unique, and not merely the product of uniqueness in probability - in terms of the different factors each individual is exposed to in reality.

Quick question to SPQR:
Do animals have souls?

The answer I get from most Christians is "no," but if your answer is "no," then discussing why we have individual perceptions from within individual bodies will not logically lead to "proof of soul."

^ maybe... i cannot prove that they do or don't have souls... but i know i have a soul, the soul is me... and you should know if you have a soul as well... in other words, only you can know for sure whether you are a entity that commands a human body... this probably makes no sense so read on... it may clarify what i mean.


ill try to answer that as best as i can... i actually don't know for sure how other people feel or how they percieve the world... i only know about myself... other people could just be a complex system of compounds for all i know...no different from a mineral except alot more complex.. but i have to assume they feel what i feel or i wouldn't have empathy... i would not need to "put myself in someone else's shoes" if i assumed i was the only entity on earth and that the rest are robots built and programmed by enviromental factors...

now, i know someones going to add that this unique sense of identity is a result of the arrangement of matter inside my brain... but that still doesn't explain why my unique sense of identity is "here"... there had to be some condition that puts my mind(controls) here, not somewhere else or everywhere at once... why did these resources/"my body" suddenly come to my disposal..

scientifically, what does it mean to have awareness? a specific patterns in a system of neurons... how is that different from a mineral? it is a more complex arrangement of atoms... but they are both nothing more than complex arrangements of atoms... there has to be something more than that because atoms are just atoms.

I'm coming into this late, but let me see if I can catch up and contribute a bit:



How could that be a possibility? If you look at yourself you see a human body. The human body is a bipedal animal with binocular vision, narrow nose, ears on the side of the head, etc. It is reasonable to conclude that a similar animal, one that looks an aweful lot like you, can communicate with you and tell you of internal processes that you can relate to, preceive the world similarly to you. That they are not merely a "complex system of compounds...no differnet from a mineral except a lot more complex."



No, that's not the reason you assume another human feels and responds internally in similar ways that you do. You assume this based upon clear reasons for doing so as I outlined above. It is not simply to feel empathy but because any other conclusion would make far less sense based upon the available data.



May I ask where else it could be? We are body-aware animals. And, unique as far as I know, able to project a vision of the future and/or reconstruct a vision of the past. This ability came in handy in our evolution and has stayed with us ever since. I'm curious as to why you are so perplexed by your awareness of yourself and that this awareness is centered "here". I'm serious: Where else would it be centered? Or are you just amazed that it is centered at all?




They didn't "suddenly" come to your disposal. This awareness developed over our vast evoution into the human animal. At some point our brain became capable of being self-aware. That self-awareness was beneficial to our species and so was passed down through the generations. Those who lacked self-awareness were not nearly as successful in the struggle for existence and so they died out. If awareness of "somewhere else or everywhere at once" was possible, had become an experiement in human evolution and was marginally more successful than any other plan, it would therefore have been chosen by natural selection. But, first of all, you might want to consider if "somewhere else" or "everywhere at once" perception is even possible before wondering why it was not selected in human evolution.



That's like asking why is there a difference between a tree and puppy. They are both a collection of atoms. The answer is pretty much implied by your question. Indeed all these things are a complex arrangement of atoms, but it is in how they are arranged --in what complexity-- that brings about trees, puppies, and self-aware human beings.

Without the spirit, humanity cant function...the Spirit functions the brain & heart, and without it, its impossible for them to function..

Without the invisible alien sitting behind your right eye the human body cannot function. The alien animates the brain and heart and without it, it is impossible for them to function.

Odd, though, without a brain or heart, the human being ceases to function. What good is the "spirit" then?

Without the spirit, there is no energy...no movement for the humans..each living thing has a soul...(except the planet)...and they have energy accordingly, but we humans are the most value of these...for we are the greatest creation ever...we have Spirits, and without it, theres no human individuality...

No, without caloric intake (from food, for example) there is no energy. "Spirit" has nothing to do with it. Calories = energy




Trees have souls? Omebas have souls? How about the flu virus? And what happens to these souls when the entity they inhabit dies? If I smash a fly for landing on my sandwich does he go to heaven because he didn't get a chance to hear about the redeeming qualities of belief in Christ?

And just how do you go about proving the existence of the "soul"? What is the soul made of? Is it made of some physical substance or something supernatural? If it's made of a natural substance how do we go about detecting it? What quantities of "soul" should we expect in an average human body? And if supernatural how does it interact with the physical body? How does something not of the natural world nonetheless impose its will and desires upon the physical entity? At what point is contact made and how can we detect that contact as distinctly between the supernatural being of the soul and the physical being?



This is merely an assertion without benefit of any direct evidence. I refer you to my above paragraph and ask that you begin to quantify your answers.

Evolution implies that humans are complex robots "built" and "programmed" by enviromental factors... i know im much more than that.


Its a choice for me... just like people can choose to turn off their empathy and torture other human beings...


This has perplexed me since i first reached self-awareness... around 3-4 years old.


i know all about the scientific aspect... but it still leaves me unsatisfied


Then explain to me this... why are you a self-aware human being in specifically your body... why has your entity emerged within your body and not my body? if you were cloned to the exact, would your entity emerge inside the clone? would you be able to control two bodies at once? science is based completely on physical factors... if we could replicate them, why wouldn't this be possible?

More than what? I don't understand. The processes of evolution acted upon living creatures until certain forms were "selected" as being more efficient in their given environments than other, competing, creatures. One of the factors that made humans successful was our self-awareness. What are you saying you are "more than"? You are more than yourself?



Well, sure. But being able to turn on or off empathy isn't the reason why you recognize that other humans probably similar to you.



Ok, so you don't know. For all we do know, self-awareness is just that: being self aware and any other kind of awareness (absent of self-awareness) just isn't possible.



Unfortunately, but obviously, I cannot address why this leaves you unsatisfied. For me, the answer that matter can be arranged in such a manner as to be self-aware --by purely naturalistic processes--is completely satsifactory.



You sort of beg the question here. You assume that there is an "entity" separate from my body. I don't believe --and have never been provided proof-- that there is. My body is me. I am my body. And my body is aware of itself because of a vastly complex neural-network. When my body ceases to function, I will no longer be self-aware. I will, as far as I can tell, not be aware of anything. That is reason alone to conclude that self-awareness is tied to the body.

If a clone were to be made it would be not be aware of my internal processes (it wouldn't be able to know I was reminiscing about a past love any more than it could feel me hit my own hand with a hammer). It is a separate person. Depending on how cloning works (I've never heard it said that the clone would duplicate my neural-network) there may be great similarities between myself and my clone, but I think those similarities would begin to diverge once the clone became an independent entity. It would become different because it would be impossible for the clone and myself to experience the exact same things. In other words, the clone and I would have to do the exact same things at the exact same time for our experiences to imprint the same. And even if we were to share the exact same experiences simultaneously, that doesn't mean we would process the information the same. What if I were sick with a cold during a given incident. That cold may influence how I perceive a given event differently than from how my clone would experience the event without a cold. Do you see what I mean?

Like I said Mazzu, what you are saying is total nonsense and irrational. Please see this link:

Body Soul Problems
http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/hg.html

SPQR, if you are really looking for answers and not spewing out religious bull$hit, I suggest you find a neurologist who has experience in this or a scientific forum. You won't get anything here because of the lack of experience. We aren't scientists. We can only provide you with sources and speculation.

Scientists *have* studied what you are asking and they know alot more than you think they do And there is no need for a "soul" to explain it.

Just most of it isn't released to the general public.

Maybe this will help, unless you choose to ignore it then we can't help you:

Physical basis of Thought and Consciousness
http://education.vsnl.com/nimbkar/phycons.html

Do you have a soul?, To know truth you must have a deep desire to see it, and a willingness to let go of the old lies.
http://home.att.net/~meditation/soul.html

Now for the original question,



Science is finding out that consciousness most likely evolves and develops over time, it does not appear out of nowhere and get "locked" into your body.

As Koch said, “How do we know that a newborn baby is conscious? Perhaps consciousness is something that doesn’t begin at birth, but gradually emerges."

Edit: I just read skepticguy's response and it pretty much explains my view on the subject. Nice job.

But in the end, we will never get believers to change their views. We are only wasting our time. When you believe in something for comfort over the real truth, your rationality goes out the window.

@skepticguy and anlong: i know all about the science... but i think you're missing the real issue.

do any of you know what i am talking about when i say: you have a single, fixed reference point of the world?



Its completely possible for that to be true... regardless, what was the mechanism that made you end up there? i mean physics-wise... not evolution-wise... im talking about how you as an entity happened to be blessed or cursed with being born as who you are, in the USA rather than some crappy 3rd world country... what were the scientific determinants of this? rhetorical question... obviously you can't give an answer to that scientifically... this should have been a philosophical discussion.

Your own unique sense of identity is generated by uniqueness in probability, probability of the events and circumstances you encounter in your life and which results in corresponding neuron activities in your brain. All these help to crystallise the individual identity within us. I believe the reason behind the fact that no any two human beings are the same (even cloned pairs) is very much nature's play on chance. In other words, the fabric of reality is composed of infinitely many outcomes by probability as such that each outcome is unique. This is my answer to your question.

Your body and your soul are one. Only people who hate thier body chose to create a concept of the soul. When your BODY is sick is your soul not also affected? When your body is weak is your soul not weakened? WHen your soul is weak is your body not weaker? NO IT IS THE BODY, YOUR SOUL IS MERELH PART OF YOR BODY! It is not seperate from it! The weak created an independant soul, independant from the body because they despised thier bodies, they depised thier bodys becauset hier souls were weary! It wanted to reject life so they created an afterlife to which they could escape to, but there is no afterlife, there is only your body, your body is your soul, your soul is your body.

Your arguements are weak for they rely on subjectivity, like all relgions and aspects of the metaphysical they cannot be measured and they can also not be proved i also realise that i cannot prove my arguemtns either, this is the fallcacy of debating religion. You cant prove anything from it.


From the Iron Heel by Jack London.

"As you say, you do not understand," Ernest replied. "The
metaphysician reasons deductively out of his own subjectivity. The
scientist reasons inductively from the facts of experience. The
metaphysician reasons from theory to facts, the scientist reasons
from facts to theory. The metaphysician explains the universe by
himself, the scientist explains himself by the universe."

Personally i believe in Nietzches ideas about the soul and body, your soul....IS your body. All you who worship the soul are despisers of the body, decadents!



From Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Freiedrich Nietzhe.



3. The Afterworldly


ONCE on a time, Zarathustra also cast his delusion beyond man, like all the afterworldly. The work of a suffering and tortured God, the world then seemed to me.

The dream- and fiction- of a God, the world then seemed to me; colored vapors before the eyes of a divinely suffering one.

Good and evil, and joy and pain, and I and you- colored vapors did they seem to me before creative eyes. The creator wished to look away from himself,- and so he created the world.

Intoxicating joy it is for the sufferer to look away from his suffering and forget himself. Intoxicating joy and self-forgetting, the world once seemed to me.

This world, the eternally imperfect, an eternal contradiction's image and imperfect image- an intoxicating joy to its imperfect creator:- thus the world once seemed to me.

Thus did I too once cast my delusion beyond man, like all the afterworldly. Beyond man?

Ah, my brothers, that God whom I created was man-made and madness, like all gods!

Man he was, and only a poor fragment of man and ego. Out of my own ashes and glow this ghost came to me. And verily, it did not come to me from the beyond!

What happened then, my brothers? I overcame myself, the suffering one; I carried my own ashes to the mountain; I created a brighter flame for myself. And lo! This ghost fled from me!

Now it would be suffering and torment to believe in such ghosts: now it would be suffering and humiliation. Thus I speak to the afterworldly.

It was suffering and impotence- that created all afterworlds; and the brief madness of bliss, which only the greatest sufferer experiences.

Weariness that wants to reach the ultimate with one leap, with a death-leap; a poor ignorant weariness, unwilling even to will any longer: that created all gods and afterworlds.

Believe me, my brothers! It was the body which despaired of the body- it groped with the fingers of the deluded spirit at the ultimate walls.

Believe me, my brothers! It was the body which despaired of the earth- it heard the bowels of being speaking to it.

And then it sought to get through the ultimate walls with its head- and not only with its head - into "the other world."

But that "other world" is well concealed from man, that dehumanized, inhuman world which is a heavenly nothing; and the bowels of being do not speak to man, except as man.

It is difficult to prove all being, and hard to make it speak. Tell me, my brothers, is not the strangest of all things the best proved?

Yes, this ego, with its contradiction and perplexity, speaks most honestly of its being- this creating, willing, valuing ego, which is the measure and value of things.

And this most honest being, the ego- it speaks of the body, and still implies the body, even when it muses and raves and flutters with broken wings.

It learns to speak ever more honestly, the ego; and the more it learns, the more titles and honors does it find for body and earth.

A new pride my ego taught me, and this I teach to men: no longer to bury one's head into the sand of heavenly things, but to carry it freely, a earthly head, which gives meaning to the earth!

I teach men a new will: to will this path which man has followed blindly, and to affirm it- and no longer to slink aside from it, like the sick and decaying!

The sick and decaying- it was they who despised the body and the earth, and invented the heavenly world, and the redeeming blood-drops; but even those sweet and sad poisons they borrowed from the body and the earth!

From their misery they sought escape, and the stars were too remote for them. Then they sighed: "O that there were heavenly paths by which to steal into another existence and into happiness!" Then they contrived for themselves their bypaths and bloody potions!

These ungrateful ones, they now hallucinated their transport beyond the sphere of their body and this earth,. But to what did they owe the convulsion and rapture of this transport? To their body and this earth.

Zarathustra is gentle with the sick. He is not indignant at their modes of consolation and ingratitude. May they become convalescents, men of overcoming, and create higher bodies for themselves!

Neither is Zarathustra indignant at a convalescent who looks tenderly on his delusions, and at midnight steals round the grave of his God; but sickness and a sick body remain even in his tears.

Many sickly ones have always been among those who muse and crave for God; violently they hate the discerning ones, and the latest of virtues, which is honesty.

They always look backward to dark ages: Indeed, delusion and faith were then something different. To rave reason was godlike, and to doubt was sin.

Too well do I know those godlike ones: they want that one should believe them, and that doubt should be sin. But I know too well what they themselves most believe.

Not in afterworlds and redeeming blood-drops: but in the body do they believe most; and their body is for them the thing-in-itself.

But it is a sickly thing to them, and gladly would they shed their skin. Therefore they hearken to the preachers of death, and themselves preach afterworlds.

Hearken rather, my brothers, to the voice of the healthy body; it is a more honest and pure voice.

More honestly and purely speaks the healthy body, perfect and square-built; and it speaks of the meaning of the earth.-



Thus spoke Zarathustra.



4. The Despisers of the Body

TO THE despisers of the body I speak my word. I wish them neither to learn afresh, nor teach anew, but only to bid farewell to their own bodies,- and thus become silent.

"Body am I, and soul"- so says the child. And why should one not speak like children?

But the awakened one, the knowing one, says: "Body am I entirely, and nothing more; and soul is only the name of something in the body."

The body is a great wisdom, a plurality with one sense, a war and a peace, a flock and a shepherd.

An instrument of your body is also your small wisdom, my brother, which you call "mind"- a little instrument and toy of your great wisdom.

"I," you say, and are proud of that word. But the greater thing- in which you are unwilling to believe- is your body with its great wisdom; that does not say "I," but does "I."

What the sense feels, what the mind knows, never has its end in itself. But sense and mind would rather persuade you that they are the end of all things: so vain are they.

Instruments and toys are sense and mind: behind them there is still the Self. The Self seeks with the eyes of the senses, it listens also with the ears of the mind.

Always the Self listens and seeks; it compares, masters, conquers, and destroys. It rules, and is also the mind's ruler.

Behind your thoughts and feelings, my brother, there is a mighty lord, an unknown sage- it is called Self; it dwells in your body, it is your body.

There is more wisdom in your body than in your best wisdom. And who then knows why your body needs precisely your best wisdom?

Your Self laughs at your mind, and its bold leaps. "What are these leaps and flights of thought to me?" it says to itself. "A detour to my end. I hold the puppet-strings of the mind, and am the prompter of its notions."

The Self says to the mind: "Feel pain!" Then the mind suffers, and thinks how it may put an end to its suffering- and that is why it is made to think.

The Self says to the mind: "Feel pleasure!" Then the mind is pleased, and thinks how it may be pleased again- and that is why it is made to think.

I want to speak to the despisers of the body. Their contempt is caused by their respect. What is it that created respect and contempt and worth and will?

The creating Self created for itself respect and contempt, it created for itself pleasure and pain. The creative body created the mind as a hand for its will.

Even in your folly and contempt you each serve your Self, you despisers of the body. I tell you, your very Self wants to die, and turns away from life.

No longer can your Self do that which it desires most:- create beyond itself. That is what it desires most; that is its fervent wish.

But it is now too late to do so:- so your Self wishes to perish, you despisers of the body.

To perish- so wishes your Self; and therefore you have become despisers of the body. For you can no longer create beyond yourselves.

And that is why you are angry with life and the earth. An unconscious envy is in the sidelong glance of your contempt.

I do not go your way, you despisers of the body! You are no bridges to the Superman!-



Thus spoke Zarathustra.


Nietzhe despised CHristianity, and i agree!

^ im trying to attribute the soul to your entity... and i tried to keep it as general as possible... leaving the possibility open for the soul being tied to the body or somehow separate... read my definition of soul

Christians and Muslims always attribte a soul seperate from the body, that it looks down on the body as if it were better than the body, but Nietzhe turned that on its head and said the body makes the soul possible, that the body rules above the 'soul' the soul becomes merely an instrument for the body. Without body there is no soul, the body controls the soul, the soul is just one aspect of the body. If there was destiny for soul to be in your body it is the same destiny that your heart in is your body also and your brain or your intestines.


Ofcourse this is just my belief, at the end of the day all things metaphysical cant be measured...THis was one of the things about the enlightenment that gave Europeans the edge. The mentality not to rely on this sort of bull$hit. To prove everything with reason and experiementation and to believe only those things that could be measured thus leaving nothing to chance or 'faith'. It was a move to attain power of thier own destinys thier own lives, not against some 'God'. It was a rise to power! Power over thier own realitys!

It was this attitude and mentality that were the foundations that made thier greatness possible today!

yeah, life's circumstances and the choices we make shapes our character... but no matter what my character turns out to be... i am still me and i am tied to this body of mine... what were the determinants that made this me? *points to self*

Well you are still you because you have really, only one go at life. This means you will only encounter one possible set of exposures/outcomes in the linear progress of time. This then becomes the only set of unique conditions that shapes your unique identity. If somehow you can reverse time to the your beginning as well as retaining the memory of former life, your own uniquess of identity will probably be shattered.