http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps03_011.pdf
A very good read.

Le Loi is my hero.

read this

china invented gunpwder way be4 the ming empire

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/gun.shtml



Gun and Gunpower

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Gunpower
Along with the silk and paper, gunpowder is another invention by Chinese and the Silk Road helped it spread to the west. The dating of gunpowder is as early as 850 A.D. This invention seems to have been discovered in China by accident - by alchemists seeking the elixir of immortality. This earliest account reported the experiment: "some have heated together the saltpeter, sulfure and carbon of charcoal with honey; smoke and flames result, so that their hands and faces have been burnt, and even the whole house burnt down."
The gunpowder used for military purpose was first recorded in 919 A.D. By the 11th century, explosive bombs filled with gunpowder and fired from catapults were introduced and used in China. The words "fire cannon", "rocket", "missile" and "fireball" appeared time and again in the official Song history as well as two other books written during the same period. The first detailed description of using "firing cannon" in warfare was in connection with a battle fought in 1126 when the Song army used it against the invading Nuchens. The so-called fire cannon was a tube made oif bamboo filled with gunpowder which, when fired, threw a flaming missile towards the enemy. Since the barrel was made of bamboo, the f lying missile could not cover a long distance. According to a description of a battle scene in 1132, it took two persons to carry a "fire cannon", and the cannons were fired from a moving platform after it had been moved close to the wall of the besieged city.

The Chinese invention of gunpowder never went much beyond its crudest form, and it was abandoned as a military weapon shortly afterwards. It reached Japan, Islam and then Europe in the 13th century and the Arabs improved gunpowder for military use. In 1280, the Syrian al-Hasan ar-Rammah wrote the Book of Fighting on Horseback and with War Engines. Herein introduced a rocket device, which he called "Chinese arrow." The early account of gunpowder in Europe was recorded by English philosopher Roger Bacon in the 13th century. One century later the Arabs used it to attack the Spanish town Baza and the very next year in 1326 Florence ordered the manufacturing of cannon and cannon balls. From Italy the making of gunpowder soon spread to other European countries, and by the 1350s it had become an effective weapon on the battlefield.

Origin of Gun
The Chinese adapted their primitive catapults to eventually develop a true gun with a metal barrel, gunpowder and a projectile by the 12th century. It is believed that the first gun was found in the early 1970s at Pan-la-ch'eng-tzu village, Manchuria, and dated to around 1290 A.D.







http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761551...Dynasty.html#p8



III Economic Growth

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The strength of the Song dynasty was based on the power of the Chinese economy, which financed Song defenses against its many foreign enemies. The Song also benefited from a highly developed iron and coal industry and the invention of gunpowder, which was used for bombs and explosive projectiles

LOL u make a fake account just for this?

The big Ming empire prevented Dai Viet from conquer SEA.

lol same with the 1979

LOL, Why should Ming allow Dai Viet to conqure SEA??
Most states were tributary states to Ming.
I doubt Vietnam would have conqured Champa so easily if only Champa payed tribute to Qing.

Here something interesting about Tributary relations.


The policy was basically.
* An attack on a tributary state by an non-tributary state was a BIG No No - expect China to intervene.
* An conflict between tributary states - China will seek a peaceful solution.
* A tributary state attacking a non-tributary state - China don't care.

So its unlikely Vietnam would ever conqure SEA unless all of SEA had crap relations with China while Vietnam becomes a Chinese ally. But then again today its unlikely for anyone to conqure anyone because it affects all nations of the world.

the period when the Ming controlled vietnam is probably one of the biggest humiliation in vietnam's history, thank god a hero like Le Loi rose from the ash

Not really, They are 10 times our sizes. Its a humilation for them when took back what its ours.

lol i agree that not a humilation to us..look at the size of china n vietnam...if a country lose to a smaller size country then that a shame

Sometimes, i'm just proud to be Viet

china probably had too much internal problems to deal with.

We've always been superior than them militarily on a relative basis. Despite its size, China has never been able to succeed in conquering Vietnam. In the end, we're still a nation and has been expanding and thriving for the last 1000 years.

Don't think there was a genuine desire by Vietnam to conquer all of Southeast Asia, just a small militaristic expedition to show who's boss and make them our vassal states. Java, Ayudhya, Lanna, Lang Sang, Khmer kingdom and Melaka were all Vietnamese vassal states.

Umm back then Vietnam was part of China.

vietnam did got conquered by china for 1000 years, that is the fact, we cant deny that

disgusting.. such barbaric thinking..

Its not barbaric , back then that was the way of the world , conquest. You cambodians couldn't defend your land so you lost it. Therefore you deserve what you got.

That's a bad mentality.

lol, it was conquer or be conquered, take your pick

Well, it's justified only if you think Might makes Right. If you think that, then that rule applies for both victor and victim.

I think Vietnam should reunify as part of China.

and sometimes u wish u were a japanese ...

they are still barbaric. they are doing it today.. what drove these vietnamese to become so evil and inhumane?

Without the Vietnamese who came to liberate Cambodia and annahilated the entire Khmer Rouge and his Pol Pot coolies while the world stood by and watched, there would be zero Cambodian living today.

please, don't bring up pol pot and the khmer rouge again. what do you have to say about nha le's comments about taking over cambodia? he even admits that it's an evil thing to do.. what does that tell you about the nature of vietnamese? what does that tell you about their thinking? how much evil can you get?

it's disturbing..

You just know how to complain , but let me ask you what did your people do? What did they do for themselves? Nothing. So shut the fu-k up. You should be happy you guys still have some land and qing dynasty didnt take it over.

davidchen are you even chinese? why are you getting angry over what i say about the vietnamese?

^Why? You think viets didn't come from china? You think they came from africa or something? If anything you cambodians look like you came from africa.

Every countries according to you are disturbing- America, the whole Europe and their past colonization, China, Japan etc.

the only country that is not disturbing according to Prahok is Cambodia

they're not as evil as the vietnamese.. you viets know how to smile and kill at the same time.

don't tell me you don't see any evilness in this vietnamese general? he looks like the type that will stab you right in the back.

Vietnam should not have sent our soldiers to rescue the Cambodian in 1979. In fact, we should have stood by like the UN and US and let the Khmer Rouge slaughter all Cambodian instead.

basically i feel many vietnamese do not show any type of sincerity or human compassion. they can easily lie,cheat and steal without remorse and put a smile on their face.

Damn you, show some respect for the old man.

LOL

Well you cambodians look like cannibals who run around in the jungles naked.

I thought the Khners are the one that lie, cheat, and eat their own kind

Don't think we eat our own kind... but eating other kinds oh yes we do 2

As far as i know, gunpowder’s was invented by the Vietnamese Chinese

for goodness sake.. they had vietnamese prostitutes who would get fu-ked and then stab an american GI in the back afterwards or hit him over the head with a pan or something.. how evil can they get?

i'm currently reading this book about the indochina wars and the book contains pictures of the war including a vietnamese militia woman holding an ak while marching with a chinese pow. lolz.. she's like friggin 4'9" tall with short stubby legs and arms.. a big head and a flat face holding an ak-47 and wearing ho chi minh sandals.. for all we know.. this vietnamese lady was probably a wife and a mother but her evil side showed up..

wtf?? 2

so cambodians really eat others when they have no food?

That's not what you call EVIL, that's PATRIOTISM, sacrificing yourself to defend your homeland.

I guess Khmers are not "EVIL" because they don't know what "PATRIOTISM" is.

so that is evil for you huh? what about your own leader Pol Pot slaughtering your black, curly, afro, unintelligent face, dirty mouth, ugly face people? that is not evil to you?

all i gotta say is khmer women are very traditional. they are stay-home moms,wives,daughters who take care of the house. khmer women are not aggressive. they do not get involve in wars. that's up to the men.. our women aren't barbaric and uncivilized like your women.. working as a prostitute is extremely unacceptable in khmer society and totally looked down upon.

This thread is getting racist... not that i care... its just amusing... carry on.

lets get back on topic about the war between Dai Viet and the Ming, just ignore the almighty intelligent people of Cambodia

The irony


BTW.. I'm handing out warning for racist comments

ignore him, he's just a troll in disguise.

irony of what? it's a fact that the majority of prostitutes in cambodia are vietnamese. like i said, khmer women are very traditional. khmer people have strong family bond and hardly do they give themselves up to foreigners. selling themselves,etc.. that's the truthe.. if it wasn't, i wouldn't even mention it cuz it would only make me look bad..

how is that patriotism when you people know how to lie,cheat and steal without remorse? i mean have you seen that one vietnam war movie with robin williams? robin williams befriended that one vietnamese kid and he turned his back on him by bombing a cafe or something.. he was secretly working for the north..

like i said, i just don't see any type of human sincerity and compassion from many vietnamese. it's like they have two faces. they can be totally friendly but deep down they only want to do you wrong which is very scandalous..

First it's a movie
Second the boy is called a "spy". Don't tell me spys only exist in Vietnam

You're judging a whole country by a movie?