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Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Asian Culture > Cambodian / Khmer Chat > Khmer Serious Talk
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Kambolizhuz
QUOTE
i think you misread the chart.

looks to me like its says that the tagalog language didnt get influence by indian scripts until the 1950s.


malay_ako, I think he correct, I wouldn't influence but when it became official and make it a totally different system into their own.

I also have the same information as you about the text in 900 C.E and this man sold it b/c it was unknown and was a piece of roll up metal. I think it was just in Sanskrit and kavi and they didn't actually adopt an official writing system.

Here a map of the Indian influences and travel
Doan Du
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 27 2004, 10:50 PM)
QUOTE (Looney @ Feb 27 2004, 10:42 PM)
LOL HE GOT U MALAY_AKO

no he didnt i just prooved him wrong.

why are you khmers so hateful? why are you ready to attack me. why do you think your right and everyone else is wrong? why are you being so ethnocentric? why do you hate to be called southeast asian and rather call yourself "indian" and not mongioliod liek the rest of southeast asians? why do you hate when people show evidence that Cambodian Ethnicity were influenced by malay Ethnicity? But why are you quick to point out when Cambodians infliuecned other Ethnicities?? Why do you want to believe your "pure?" What will it accomplish to be pure? You wil only be introspective and think yoru better than everyone else in southeast asia.

They are entitled to their own opinions as you are to yours. The sad thing is both sides already made up their minds before going into this discussion.

Take a break to vent it out.
malay_ako
QUOTE (Kambolizhuz @ Feb 27 2004, 10:59 PM)
Here a map of the Indian influences and travel

according to Angkorwat19's link Philipine script derives from Bugis script. Bugis is a tribe of Celebes. and according to Kamboliiouz map Celebes islandeers (Buguis) get their script from Java and Java gets their script form SOuthern India.

WOw. so you guys just suported me.
Looney
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 27 2004, 10:50 PM)
QUOTE (Looney @ Feb 27 2004, 10:42 PM)
LOL HE GOT U MALAY_AKO

no he didnt i just prooved him wrong.

why are you khmers so hateful? why are you ready to attack me. why do you think your right and everyone else is wrong? why are you being so ethnocentric? why do you hate to be called southeast asian and rather call yourself "indian" and not mongioliod liek the rest of southeast asians? why do you hate when people show evidence that Cambodian Ethnicity were influenced by malay Ethnicity? But why are you quick to point out when Cambodians infliuecned other Ethnicities?? Why do you want to believe your "pure?" What will it accomplish to be pure? You wil only be introspective and think yoru better than everyone else in southeast asia.

no body is being hateful. no body is gonna attack. i thought this was a debate like what menikani said before? we're suppose to argue. you dont know what i think right now or anyone else. i dont suppose you have special powers or something. so what if im ethnocentric. everyone else. everyone has pride it what they are. its natural to be ethnocentric. we dont hate to be callerd southeast asian because we are southeast asian. we are asian and our country is located in the south east. i have never heard anyone call anyone a monoloid. thats like calling someone a homosapien or neaderthal. cambodian ethnicity were influenced by many cultures like everyone else is. what are you talkin bout "pure"? what is your definition of pure for this topic? are you saying that i believe i am full blooded cambodian? when in actuallity i am also part chinese. i am not introspective and i dont not think that i am beter than anyone else in south east asia because no one is better than anyone else in southeast asia. cambodia is a third world country. who would be proud of that. laos is also a third world country. i bet you they're not proud of that either. cambodians survived a genocide that is something to be proud of. we had a great empire called the Khmer Empire which ruled most of southeas asia during the 9th and 16th centuries which we are very proud of. And now cambodia is the size of missouri, that is nothing to be proud of. cambodians have a lot of pride to show for. that might be a good thing but also bad at the same time. i am just defending khmers because of what was said earlier in the thread. i dont care if malay's influenced khmers. Funan was great but the Khmer Empire was also great. many others influenced us and we influenced others also. we're all one big family. there! and families fight so its just natural.
angkorwat19
QUOTE
according to Angkorwat19's link Philipine script derives from Bugis script. Bugis is a tribe of Celebes. and according to Kamboliiouz map Celebes islandeers (Buguis) get their script from Java and Java gets their script form SOuthern India.

hehe... think again.. go back and read kambo's post. filipinos never actually adopted that writing system since the bugis is a minority and the majority probably had a different writing system.
Looney
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 27 2004, 11:10 PM)
QUOTE (Kambolizhuz @ Feb 27 2004, 10:59 PM)
Here a map of the Indian influences and travel

according to Angkorwat19's link Philipine script derives from Bugis script. Bugis is a tribe of Celebes. and according to Kamboliiouz map Celebes islandeers (Buguis) get their script from Java and Java gets their script form SOuthern India.

WOw. so you guys just suported me.

lol. he got you guys there.

seems about right to me.
malay_ako
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 27 2004, 11:05 PM)
They are entitled to their own opinions as you are to yours. The sad thing is both sides already made up their minds before going into this discussion.

Take a break to vent it out.

no the point is they are Cambodian Racists and Ethnocentrists who would not like to believe the Southeastan Ethnciities influence each other in Ancient times. With that kind of menalty of the Cambodian, southeast asia will never get along.

I never saied i hated cambodians in this forum on AsiaFInest. did i?i only praise cambodian and try to present relationship between Khmer ethnciity and Malay Ethnicty to show common ground.
Kambolizhuz
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 27 2004, 11:10 PM)
according to Angkorwat19's link Philipine script derives from Bugis script. Bugis is a tribe of Celebes. and according to Kamboliiouz map Celebes islandeers (Buguis) get their script from Java and Java gets their script form SOuthern India.

WOw. so you guys just suported me.

I am a Khmer and I if you read my posts I NEVER disagree with you( i even suppport you on SOMETHINGS),
yes there was a script in 900 C.E, even so, Khmer script came in 600 C.E.
I just say it was not officai until 1950, b/c like you say the Spainard.
And you are a very contrasting person, sometime you want to share the Funan empire with the Khmer but then agian you are also very stereotypical , calling Khmer haters and ethnoicentric.
Menikani
QUOTE
no the point is they are Cambodian Racists and Ethnocentrists who would not like to believe the Southeastan Ethnciities influence each other in Ancient times. With that kind of menalty of the Cambodian, southeast asia will never get along.


We were influenced by many civilization, India being the main civilization. If you say we we're influenced by Java during the Angkor Era, that is possible. Once you said we learned Hinduisim through Java, then when I proved to you that Hinduisim did'nt come to Cambodia via Java, you say "Oh, ummm but Angkor started from scracth". Maybe Java influenced Cambodia through other means, like vocabularies and food, but defintely not Hinduisim. Also, we were debating over whether Funan was a "Malay" Kingdom or a "Khmer" Kingdom, why are we even debating past this era?
Looney
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 27 2004, 11:18 PM)
no the point is they are Cambodian Racists and Ethnocentrists who would not like to believe the Southeastan Ethnciities influence each other in Ancient times. With that kind of menalty of the Cambodian, southeast asia will never get along.

I never saied i hated cambodians in this forum on AsiaFInest. did i?i only praise cambodian and try to present relationship between Khmer ethnciity and Malay Ethnicty to show common ground.

oh god! do i have to explain my self again? indians and others influenced us but mainly india in my opinion. and we also influence others. its jus a big cycle of influence. You act as if its the cambodians fault that southeast asians dont get along. southeast asias will never get along just like the middle east will never get a long with westerners.
malay_ako
QUOTE (Looney @ Feb 27 2004, 11:12 PM)
we're all one big family. there! and families fight so its just natural.

ok you know what? first cambodian act like i know nothing about cambodian hisotry and now cambodian trying to act like they know more about early philipine history than me? wow what does that say about cambodians? they think they know evertyng huh?

2ndly you say thatwe southeast asian are all "family" and family argues right?

well why are you aruging with me when all im trying to say is that we are family and support yoru statement? are you aruging just to be aruging?

its kind of strange that you would argue something that i am supporting you on that we are family. and then say your aruging because that is what families do!!
Doan Du
I am not bias here but there is Western documented evidence that Malay was spoken in the Philippines. Magellan had with him a slave named Enrique who was reported to be captured from Melaka acting as interpreter when he landed in the Philippines (Cebu, I believe).

Have you all heard of the story of Henry the Black? That's Enrique, the first Malay to circumnavigate the globe.
angkorwat19
this malay_ako guy somehow thinks cambodians are dumb and slow. i know your true intentions on this site malay_ako, orangu melayu, etc. you're not here to embrace khmer history but rather make khmer history your own version, you are manipulative, you twist facts, and probably even try to take credit for what khmers accomplished in ancient times by saying funan is a malay kingdom. if it is, it surely ain't YOUR ancestors kingdom. filipinos had nothing to do with SEAsian civlization. who were the kingdoms that were involve? java,champa,mon,khmer,vietnamese, and siam kingdoms. then when khmers defend our stance on our own history, you try to make khmer people feel guilty for what happen to them in modern history by saying we are ethnocentric and racist. you keep saying khmers don't acknowledge foreign influence on their civilization when every khmer person knows that khmer civlization came into existance because of india. even if java and champa influenced khmer, it wasn't all that great because india influenced most parts of SEAsia.
Kambolizhuz
what is the main problems or debates here?? hehe I getting confused here. It seem like it goes back and forth, he say, she say
malay_ako
QUOTE (Menikani @ Feb 27 2004, 11:24 PM)
Maybe Java influenced Cambodia through other means, like vocabularies and food, but defintely not Hinduisim. Also, we were debating over whether Funan was a "Malay" Kingdom or a "Khmer" Kingdom, why are we even debating past this era?

HInduism came from India. BUT..

Jayavaraman II is the founder of Angkor. Jayavaraman II was a cambodian captive raised in Sailendra java Court during the time Silendra were early HIndus. Jayaman II returned to Cambodia and became the founder of Angkor. Jayavaraman II took what he learned from Java Hinduism and applied ti kingdom he build called Angkor, he institutited himself God-King whihc he learned form Sailenndra, the took the name of King of Mountain whchh he copied from the Sailendra (Lord of the Mountain". Sailendra claimed to be direct diseecnat of Funan and they took their name form Funan "king of mountain" Angokr was made from scratch it even has it s own styles, cambodian architecture has many differnet styles thestyle of Angkor wasKulen Style (802-875)


Jayavaraman II unified the country and declared the Khmer kingdom secure. Mahendraparavata (present-day Phnom Kulen) and Hariharalaya (present-day Roluos) were the central cities of Jayavaraman II.

Religion: Hinduism, cult of Shiva, God-King (Cakravartin).

The Kulen style is a transitional style which commenced in the Pre-Angkorian period and concluded in the Angkorian period.

Sculpture: Becomes more formalized and less natural. The body of the statue is solid and the chest cleaved. The face is square and the weight balanced on the left leg, with the right left set slightly forward. The supporting arch is no longer necessary. The first headdresses, the symbols of royalty become characteristic of the Angkorian period.

Architecture: Brick sanctuaries with stucco are found at some locations. Most sanctuaries are isolated. Appearance of the "mountain-temple". The architecture and some elements of decoration show influence from Champa (Temple of Damrei Krap) and from Java.

Main Monuments: At Phnom Kulen (Prasat Damrei Krap, Prasat Rup Arak, Prasat Neak Ta, Aram Rong Chen).

http://www.autoriteapsara.org/eng-3-4-art/1-styles2.htm

i bet you can not recount the history of Angkor period without mentioning the word Sailnendra more than once.


I DONT KNOW WHY YOU KHMERS ARE DEBATING, ALL IM SAYING IS KHMER WERE INFLUECNED BY OTHER ETHNCIITIES ASIDE FROM INDIANS. I HAVE THE WHOLE CAMBODIAN INTERNET CREW ATTACKING ME FROM ALL FRONT, MAYBE YOU SHOULD CHOSE 1 LEADER TO REPRESENT YOU BECAUSE IM NOT ENJOYING 10 ON 1 FIGHT. EVEN THOUGH I HAVENT LOST BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE EVIDENCE OF SCHOLARS TO PROOVE MY STATEMENT. ONLY COWEARD ATTACK IN GROUPS.
DAI_VIET
Wow, I am lost in this topic. I tried to keep up with it, but there are just too many names to remember. I am totally lost in the history of these nations.

How many nations were there south of north Vietnam in the middle ages (c.a. 0-1000 A.D.)? A map would be a great help, thank you. I am very interested in this topic.
Menikani
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 27 2004, 11:45 PM)
QUOTE (Menikani @ Feb 27 2004, 11:24 PM)
Maybe Java influenced Cambodia through other means, like vocabularies and food, but defintely not Hinduisim. Also, we were debating over whether Funan was a "Malay" Kingdom or a "Khmer" Kingdom, why are we even debating past this era?

HInduism came from India. BUT..

Jayavaraman II is the founder of Angkor. Jayavaraman II was a cambodian captive raised in Sailendra java Court during the time Silendra were early HIndus. Jayaman II returned to Cambodia and became the founder of Angkor. Jayavaraman II took what he learned from Java Hinduism and applied ti kingdom he build called Angkor, he institutited himself God-King whihc he learned form Sailenndra, the took the name of King of Mountain whchh he copied from the Sailendra (Lord of the Mountain". Sailendra claimed to be direct diseecnat of Funan and they took their name form Funan "king of mountain" Angokr was made from scratch it even has it s own styles, cambodian architecture has many differnet styles thestyle of Angkor wasKulen Style (802-875)


Jayavaraman II unified the country and declared the Khmer kingdom secure. Mahendraparavata (present-day Phnom Kulen) and Hariharalaya (present-day Roluos) were the central cities of Jayavaraman II.

Religion: Hinduism, cult of Shiva, God-King (Cakravartin).

The Kulen style is a transitional style which commenced in the Pre-Angkorian period and concluded in the Angkorian period.

Sculpture: Becomes more formalized and less natural. The body of the statue is solid and the chest cleaved. The face is square and the weight balanced on the left leg, with the right left set slightly forward. The supporting arch is no longer necessary. The first headdresses, the symbols of royalty become characteristic of the Angkorian period.

Architecture: Brick sanctuaries with stucco are found at some locations. Most sanctuaries are isolated. Appearance of the "mountain-temple". The architecture and some elements of decoration show influence from Champa (Temple of Damrei Krap) and from Java.

Main Monuments: At Phnom Kulen (Prasat Damrei Krap, Prasat Rup Arak, Prasat Neak Ta, Aram Rong Chen).

http://www.autoriteapsara.org/eng-3-4-art/1-styles2.htm

i bet you can not recount the history of Angkor period without mentioning the word Sailnendra more than once.


I DONT KNOW WHY YOU KHMERS ARE DEBATING, ALL IM SAYING IS KHMER WERE INFLUECNED BY OTHER ETHNCIITIES ASIDE FROM INDIANS. I HAVE THE WHOLE CAMBODIAN INTERNET CREW ATTACKING ME FROM ALL FRONT, MAYBE YOU SHOULD CHOSE 1 LEADER TO REPRESENT YOU BECAUSE IM NOT ENJOYING 10 ON 1 FIGHT. EVEN THOUGH I HAVENT LOST BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE EVIDENCE OF SCHOLARS TO PROOVE MY STATEMENT. ONLY COWEARD ATTACK IN GROUPS.

You're right, there are temples built in that style from 802-875 A.D., some of the temples built in that styles are Prasat Damrei Krap, Prasat Rup Arak, Prasat Neak Ta, Aram Rong Chen. GREAT, now let's take a look at other styles that were NOT influenced by Java.

Phnom Da Style (514-600)
Sambor Prei Kuk Style (600-650)
Prei Khmeng Style (635-700)
Prasat Andet Style (657-681)
Kompong Preah Style(706-800)
Kulen Style (802-875)
Preah Ko Style(875-895)
Bakheng Style (893-925)
Koh Ker Style (921-945)
Pre Rup Style (944-967)
Banteay Srei Style (967-1000)
Khleang Style (965-1010)
Baphuon Style (1010-1080)
Angkor Vat Style (1100-1175)
Bayon Style (1180-1230)

As you can see, as time goes on, we developed our own style. So you cannot take sole credit for the 1000 other temples that was not built in the Kulen Style. Angkor Wat was built in the Angkor Vat Style. Java deserve credits for the temple of Prasat Damrei Krap, Prasat Rup Arak, Prasat Neak Ta, Aram Rong Chen, happy?
malay_ako
QUOTE (DAI_VIET @ Feb 27 2004, 11:50 PM)
Wow, I am lost in this topic. I tried to keep up with it, but there are just too many names to remember. I am totally lost in the history of these nations.

How many nations were there south of north Vietnam in the middle ages (c.a. 0-1000 A.D.)? A map would be a great help, thank you. I am very interested in this topic.

QUOTE
Looney
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 27 2004, 11:28 PM)
QUOTE (Looney @ Feb 27 2004, 11:12 PM)
we're all one big family. there! and families fight so its just natural.

ok you know what? first cambodian act like i know nothing about cambodian hisotry and now cambodian trying to act like they know more about early philipine history than me? wow what does that say about cambodians? they think they know evertyng huh?

2ndly you say thatwe southeast asian are all "family" and family argues right?

well why are you aruging with me when all im trying to say is that we are family and support yoru statement? are you aruging just to be aruging?

its kind of strange that you would argue something that i am supporting you on that we are family. and then say your aruging because that is what families do!!

i am arguing cause you sound like an idiot. you're taking all that we've said up the @$$ and not to the head. everyone argues. yes famililes argue but one is hard headed (thats you). you state your intentions but are those your true intentions?

all you're trying to do in this thread is glorify the malays. and now you are insulting khmers saying that they think they know everything. no one has said that you don't know anything about khmer history. you know some but not all. you read some text and all of a sudden you think you gotten it all figure out.

if we are all famililes , i want a family divorce. someone should disown you.
Looney
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 27 2004, 11:45 PM)
I DONT KNOW WHY YOU KHMERS ARE DEBATING, ALL IM SAYING IS KHMER WERE INFLUECNED BY OTHER ETHNCIITIES ASIDE FROM INDIANS. I HAVE THE WHOLE CAMBODIAN INTERNET CREW ATTACKING ME FROM ALL FRONT, MAYBE YOU SHOULD CHOSE 1 LEADER TO REPRESENT YOU BECAUSE IM NOT ENJOYING 10 ON 1 FIGHT. EVEN THOUGH I HAVENT LOST BECAUSE I ALWAYS HAVE EVIDENCE OF SCHOLARS TO PROOVE MY STATEMENT. ONLY COWEARD ATTACK IN GROUPS.

you know damn straight why we are debating. we've stated why we are debating numerous times but you're just too damn hard headed to even get the facts straight. we've already known that we were influenced by other cultures aside from indians. you dont have the whole cambodian internet crew on you because its just me, menikani, angkorwat19, and kambolizhuz. if you think you havent lost, why arent you enjoying this? victory would be sweet wouldnt it? oh wow you have scholars to support your statements. even scholars make mistakes.

so what are you saying? we're cowards? you act as if we planned this whole "attack" on you. you b!tch way too much.
Menikani
I don`t think he gets it. Let him claim and be proud that Funan was a Malay Kingdom. Not many(if any) scholars agree with him. They all claim that Founan was a Malay kingdom, but they do not provide any concrete evidence. Atleast the links between Chenla(Kambuja) and Funan are more accordant and applicable then the links between the Malays and Funan. It is conventional belief among MANY MANY Scholars that Founan was a Khmer Kingdom. Let's not argue with this lost Phillipino anymore, his intention is not to establish "Brotherhood", but to claim superiority over the Khmers by providing unconventional theories about the origin of the Khmer Kingdom of Founan.

Also, there is nothing bad about being just "Phillipino", but he always claim, "Malays". Us "Malays" we "Malays".
malay_ako
QUOTE
QUOTE (Menikani @ Feb 28 2004, 02:23 AM)
I don`t think he gets it. Let him claim and be proud that Funan was a Malay Kingdom. Not many(if any) scholars agree with him. They all claim that Founan was a Malay kingdom, but they do not provide any concrete evidence. Atleast the links between Chenla(Kambuja) and Funan are more accordant and applicable then the links between the Malays and Funan. It is conventional belief among MANY MANY Scholars that Founan was a Khmer Kingdom. Let's not argue with this lost Phillipino anymore, his intention is not to establish "Brotherhood", but to claim superiority over the Khmers by providing unconventional theories about the origin of the Khmer Kingdom of Founan.

Also, there is nothing bad about being just "Phillipino", but he always claim, "Malays". Us "Malays" we "Malays". 



bull shiet! proove where i ever said that Malay are superior to Khmer? YOu can not, because i never siad any such words in here. you know what the only thing i wrote in here? i wrote how malay ethnicity and khmer etihncity influence each other and how we should cultivate that. You know what the majoirty of you khmer said to my ideas? No, malay have nothing to do with khmer. no you are not malay. no you have no history. and then one of your khmer friends try to make me look like a bad guy by posting some message i wrote months ago to a khmer who was being racist to me on a totally different online community. so who fault is it really?

you guys have no respect, and black heart, thats fine, if you dont want t recognize how malay and khmer can be friends, i cant force you to be my friend or force you to believe what you do not want to blieve. i will just learn from my mistake of trying to be friendly to a khmer and not try much with khmers in my life. and i will just tell my friends the bad experince so they do not have to suffer your hatered if they ever try to be frinedly with a khmer one day because this is what will happen most likely.

you want south east asia to be serpate? fine. khmer go your way and everyone go their way. you khmer want to hold anger towards the vietnamese/ lao / thai / and malay? what friends do you have? none but your one khmer friends. you can never experince the true beautify of life, but it is not my place to force you to embrace teh world if you only want to embrace the boarder within the country cambodia.

i wont think like you cambodians, i wont isolate myself on one island and say this island is for me and thie history is of the isand is my only history, because i know better. i am smarter to know that my ancestors sail from one island to another and that is why we look the same and are classifed under the same malay ethnicity, and speak the same austronesain lanuguage and practice the same native austroneain culture.

but not only did you khmer want to deny being part of the world, you also wish to deny my culture and tell me my culture is incorect because it is unlie your own. my seafaring culture and my austroneain cultures's concept of family, community, brotherhood is unknown to you khmer so you want to say im wrong? this is the unforunate mentality of yours, you are ethnocentric and also racist.

the world is different ouside the country of cambodia. not everyone has the same lifestyle as you. if only you allow yourself to experince other lifestyles then you would understand what i am saying when i say malay ethnicity and malay people as a colletive terminology. You never studied my ethnciity's history, you only studied your own. And if you did study, you only have borad concept of it. i have been studying my Malay ethnicty all my life and lived my Austroneain culture and speak my Austorneain language all my life. so i know who i am. and i know how my ancestor influence the whole world because of our seafaring traditions. and i know how other ethnicities influence my history. and i am proud to say different eople influence the malay ethnicty and i wont try say only little or just a tiny influence, because influence is influence. and i see nothing wrong with being influenced. it makes me feel part of the world. and brotherhood with other people.

and lastly, unconventional doesnt mean it is wrong. just because south vietnam (khmer krom) is conventionally poession of vietnamese, does it make it right? think about this one as my last words to you. conventional means the majoirty idea. blacks used to be slaves and it was a conventional concept and majority acceptance, but now they are free because of a few unconventional abolitionists who fought for the black's rights.. i know you probably dont give a sheit about blacks because your khmer and you dont care about anyone but yourselves right? but you can replace the word black and khmer and just imagine, if you were the slaves. put yourself in the shoes different than your own and you might understand this.

hopefully maybe i englithen some non-biased khmer people and they will feel compleled to see if what i wrote had any vailidity to them in anycase. i have been excaushed by trying to defend myself to 5-10 people on this forum so im done, i think i am happy to be able to present the information and that is all i can do, besides stress for a millino time that i respect khmer and khmer culture & ethncity and i just wanted to show relation between khmer and malay ethnicty in ancient southeast asian history.

P.L.U.R
azn_pyde_viet
QUOTE (angkorwat19 @ Feb 27 2004, 03:32 PM)
QUOTE
Even Malay originated in Southern China. it seems like khmer are trying to segregate themselves or think they are somehow better/different than the rest of us asian mongioloids. You Mon-khmer are the same victim of chinese expansion. you were just ahead of the Lao, Thai, and vietnamese. but the negirto and the Malay was ahead of you. We are all victim of Chinese kicking us out of China.

i'm gonna have fun with malay_ako biggrin.gif. this flip guy flips flops and changes the history of his so called "malay ethnicity people". this quote he says malay originated in southern china and on another quote he said malays all originated in taiwan but i can't find that quote for some reason. he keeps acknowledging that all the malay people are the same when IN FACT THEY ARE NOT. DO YOU SEE KHMER PEOPLE CLAIMING THAT THEIR ANCESTORS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MON KINGDOM? MON AND KHMER PEOPLE ARE CLOSELY RELATED ETHNICALLY AND LINGUISTICALLY. but i agree with that guy who says this MALAY_AKO GUY IS LIKE ONE OF THOSE AFROCENTRISTS WHO TRIES TO CLAIM THAT HIS PEOPLE WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXISTANCE OF OTHER CIVILIZATIONS AHAHHAAHHAHAHAHA. MY MALAY ANCESTORS WERE SEAFARING PEOPLE AND THEY WERE ALREADY CIVILIZED BEFORE THE INDIANS,EUROPEANS,CHINESE,ETC. AHAHAHAHAH. KEEP IT UP AND YOU'LL BECOME A "FLIPCENTRIST" AHAHAHHAAH.

HAHA! I agree! nobody gives a $hit about your malay bull$hit. all my flip hommies don't give a flying fu-k about it either!
KhmerBeauty



As I scroll down, I see a few points I need to make it clear in regarding to some of the post in here:

1)Woman in Cambodia
Cambodia is MATRIACHY society. A quote from Cambodian woman organization " CAMBODIAN WOMAN IS PRECIOUS GEM." In old days Cambodia, Khmer women made decision, take care of the family, hold income and deal with business and make sure her family is healthy. Men takes care of the physical work and do the manly stuff.

2)FUNAN:
Funan, the correct pronounciation is PNOM meaning MOUNTAIN. Some idiots foreigners try to change our pronounciation and think it as there was a country called Funan. Khmer Golden land(KHMER EMPIRE) used to stretched all the way border Tibet and Myanmar. Also we have another name called by the Chinese "CHENLA" mean pures wax. In the old days, CHINA and KHMER were/are very close best buddy. We produced the best BEES WAX, the Chinese imported our pur wax. They loved it so much that they named us Chenla. Please see map as posted above.
tattra
QUOTE (KhmerBeauty @ Mar 26 2004, 01:13 PM)
2)FUNAN:
Funan, the correct pronounciation is PNOM meaning MOUNTAIN. Some idiots foreigners try to change our pronounciation and think it as there was a country called Funan. Khmer Golden land(KHMER EMPIRE) used to stretched all the way border Tibet and Myanmar. Also we have another name called by the Chinese "CHENLA" mean pures wax. In the old days, CHINA and KHMER were/are very close best buddy. We produced the best BEES WAX, the Chinese imported our pur wax. They loved it so much that they named us Chenla. Please see map as posted above.

The "idiot foreigners" were none other than your beloved and friendly "Zhuonguoren" from the Middle Kingdom, as Menikani pointed out earlier in this topic.

I personally love the name Funan, it sounds so peaceful, rich and beautiful and the kingdom was probably just that. Yes, there was a Funan once over that part of the world before the Khmer Empire ever stretched there.

Click on the 3rd century and 6th century to learn more about the kingdom of Funan. Have fun!
http://www.angkor-planet.com/UK-hase.html
dalawapo
QUOTE (tattra @ Mar 27 2004, 01:30 PM)
QUOTE (KhmerBeauty @ Mar 26 2004, 01:13 PM)
2)FUNAN:
Funan, the correct pronounciation is PNOM meaning MOUNTAIN. Some idiots foreigners try to change our pronounciation and think it as there was a country called Funan. Khmer Golden land(KHMER EMPIRE) used to stretched all the way border Tibet and Myanmar. Also we have another name called by the Chinese "CHENLA" mean pures wax. In the old days, CHINA and KHMER were/are very close best buddy.  We produced the best BEES WAX, the Chinese imported our pur wax. They loved it so much that they named us Chenla. Please see map as posted above.

The "idiot foreigners" were none other than your beloved and friendly "Zhuonguoren" from the Middle Kingdom, as Menikani pointed out earlier in this topic.

I personally love the name Funan, it sounds so peaceful, rich and beautiful and the kingdom was probably just that. Yes, there was a Funan once over that part of the world before the Khmer Empire ever stretched there.

Click on the 3rd century and 6th century to learn more about the kingdom of Funan. Have fun!
http://www.angkor-planet.com/UK-hase.html

WOW!!

that is a beautifully illustrated Khmer website!!!!!!!

thank you for the link. Finally a khmer is not apprehensive against the fact Austronesian had influence in the very beginning of Southeast Asian history. And According to this website, Ok Eo is present in Austronesian Era before Khmer enter the picture. And also presents Funan as PRE-Mon-Khmer.

It's also very interesting to know that Austronesian predate Vietnamese Ethnicity in their Northern Territory. So Viet not only displaced the Austronesian Champa of their Southern Territory, but also displaced the supposed Austronesian Cradle of Civilization!!!

no hard feelings though. HOWEVER, it would be great to be recognized and for these ethnicities to have some respect!!!!
Doan Du
QUOTE (dalawapo @ Mar 27 2004, 02:03 PM)
It's also very interesting to know that Austronesian predate Vietnamese Ethnicity in their Northern Territory. So Viet not only displaced the Austronesian Champa of their Southern Territory, but also displaced the supposed Austronesian Cradle of Civilization!!!

There are plenty of evidences that the Viet are direct descendants of Austronesians who were Sinicized.

Please refer to Austronesian lexicon by Kenneth Gregerson and ito Austroasiatic Languages by E J.A.C.S. Davidson.
Nam Quoc Son Ha
Who were the Austronesians? Where did they come from and who are they now?
dalawapo
QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Mar 28 2004, 02:58 AM)
Who were the Austronesians? Where did they come from and who are they now?



QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Mar 28 2004, 02:58 AM)
Who were the Austronesians? Where did they come from and who are they now?

Who were the Austronesians?

Austronesian is a word that defines the Native Culture and Native Language of the Malay Ethnicity.

The Malay Ethnicity presently make up the nations Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Madagascar etc.

We are on these islands because our Ancestors practiced the Native Austronesian culture which was based on Sea-faring and they sailed to these islands.

we the descendants, however gradually forgot our native Austronesian culture as we gradually adopted foreign cultures such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and eventually those cultures were replaced themselves by the adoption of colonial and western cultures & relgions such as Islam (for the Malaysians & Indonesians) and Christianity (for the Filipinos.)

And please keep in mind, that these Countries "indonesia" "malaysia" and the "philippines" were created by white colonizers around the 20th century. Unlike Southeast Asia Mainland, we Malay had not formed any Country. And we more or less considered ourselves one people who freely sailed from island to island trading, inter-marrying, etc. But we did have seperate island kingdoms such as Sri-vijaya of Sumatra island. Sailendra and Sanjaya of Java island. etc. And these kingdoms would sometimes claim controll of neghbooring islands. And also these kingdoms would flee to each other whenever there was trouble at home. So when Buddhist sri-vijaya kingdom was collasping some people fled to the philippines and settled in the central islands and today the central islands and the people are called "Visayans." But before this the Buddhist sailendra people fled to sri-vijaya because some other rival Hindu kingdom on the same island called Sanjaya was taking over.. And when Islam was taking over the whole islands, the Sailendra and Sanjaya fleed to Bali island. And today bali island is the only present hindu culture of the malay ethnicity.

But even though our native Austronesian culture became dominated by foreign culture, it still survives merely mixed. For example, our native austronesian culture were Matrilineal, and so today in the Philippines there have been many women presidents in our modern government. And in Indonesia, although they adopted Islam, woman still hold a strong postion which contrasts from Islam in the middleeast where women are more oppressed and restricted.

But there are pockets in our islands where the Malay successfully fought the Colonizer and were never influenced by their culture or religion. And in the Philippines those people are the Igorot Mountain tribes of Luzon island.

In indonesia, those people are the Dayaks of Borneo island.

I don't know about Malaysia...

But even through all this, We malay still retained our Native Austronesian languages and there are merely foreign influences in our languages. like "Comptuer" is in Filipino language. obviously it's an English word and we Filipinos don't have a native way to say "comptuer" besides maybe saying box. but it's more convient to say "computer" And this applies to Hindu, Spanish, Dutch, Chinese, etc words.

Where did they come from?

The Malay is thought to have originated on the island of Taiwan. or at least the Austronesian language originated in Taiwan. And today there still survives Malays on Taiwan. But they are out numbered by the Ethnic Chinese who recently migrated to the island during the 1600's and gradually claimed the island their own.

Anyways..... Those Malays on taiwan ventured south some 6,000 years ago into Southeast Asian islands and Southeast Asian mainland at an ANCIENt time. Or At least earlier than the present populations: Khmers, Viets, Lao, Thai, etc. And evidently you guys displaced the original inhabitants. And today the main ones left are the Chams who were on Southeast Asia in the very beginning and their hindu kingdom of Champa was present alongside Funan. Also there are a few Austronesian adherants who live in the mountains, we know they are because they speak Austronesian languages and practice Austronesian cultures such as being matrlienal. In Vietnam & Cambodia those people are the Jarai, Rade, Mnong, Ede. etc, there are more i cant name them all. One other tribe i should mention are the Naga of Nagaland which is sandwiched between (India and Myanmar.) They are culturally native austronesian. and were the first to settle the area. They're culture stands out in this region which is mostly Hindu or Buddhist. And the closest culture which resembles it is the Igorot of the Philippines. And it is remarkable similarities. But the differences is that the Naga do not speak an Austronesian language, they speak the languages of their neighboors, the Sinotibetians. And i must admit that many of them have sino-tibetian, indian, myanmar features. One can only guess that the Malay mixed with the people and lost their native language and original features but still managed to retain their native culture as they migrated to the mountains. Which made it possible as it gave the nagas isolation. This is how the Igorots of the Philippines were able to retain their native culture because the spaniards couldn't penetrate the mountains.

One example of an original people losing their language but also their culture to new commers would be the Negrito of the Philippines.

The negrito pre-dated the Malays in the Philippines. But eventually the malays displaced the negritos. and the negritos who are neolithic became malay slaves and stuff. And eventually the Negirto lost his own native language and own native culture and adopted the the Malay's AUstronesian language and culture.

And then they retreated to the mountains and kept isolated as many are today. But it's too late because they already adopted Austronesian language and culture. but they are still the most primitive people in the world. And they are the smallest people in the world.

who are they now?

But Again, today we Malay whose native culture and native language is called "Austronesian" live mostly in the islands of both the indian and pacific oceans. Because our Malay ancestors were great seafarers and settled the island of Madgascar in the Indian ocean, all the way to Easter Island in the pacific ocean.

One thing i should say though is that the Native Austronesian culture survives in it's purest form only in the South Pacific which is Hawaii, Tahiti, Samoa etc. The reason it is in its purest form is that they were isolated in these little islands in the vast pacific, and no colonizers or foreign people were able to influence them. And the People are Malays who mixed with Papuans (papuans are Melanesians = blacks who pre-dated the Malays).

But the South Pacific islanders speak an Austronesian language. And not a Papuan language.
tattra
Thank you for taking your time to elaborate, Dalawapo. It was very informative.
BishoujoHunter
Nagas are Mon Khmer and MALAYS came from fujian and taiwan and malays(malays have been going to taiwan since neolithic) and kadais and zhuangs and the ancestors of hoklo were cornered during Qin dynasty so,when fujian got conquered in han dynasty or the end of qin dynasty the malays were expelled polynesians were in polynesia because they were expelled from southeast asia after interbreeding with negritos and melanesians by the malays in short malays invaded southern vietnam and made the champa kingdom

I call the Vietnamese Annam people to not to confuse w/ the ancestors of Malays and Thais who are also called Yuet people or Yueh people

The Sinicized Austronesian People are the Hoklo
http://www.hoklo.org
BishoujoHunter
QUOTE (Menikani @ Feb 24 2004, 06:10 AM)
Hello malay_ako,

I would just like to ask you some questions and post comments if you don't mind.

QUOTE
Ok Why is it bad for Funan to be a Malay kingdom? In any case Khmer Chenla conquered it. So if you want to feel good, you can say Chenla, the Cambodian’s first true Kingdom, took over Funan and adopted all its ways and traditions and you continued the legacy of Funan. so in a way, you have rightful claim to Funan as being part of your history But do not be so greedy to say that is your history ALONE. Again, do you at least acknowledge that Chenla was a Vassal state of Funan that took over?


I believe Funan was a mixture of Indian/Khmer. And I believe the Khmer Language was the dominant language since the Chinese derived the word “Funan” from the Khmer word “Phnom”. If Khmer was not the language spoken in Funan, can you tell me what language they spoke? If they spoke another language, I would have to believe it was an Indian language and not a Malay, I would believe the language has to be either Sankirt or Khmer.

QUOTE
Khmer legends say that "Naga" the ones who created Funan with the help of the Hindu were the original inhabitants of Southeast Asia. The Khmer legend does not say that the Khmers themselves were the "Naga" or that they directly created Funan.


Just because the legend does not say Nagas are Khmer themselves does not mean they were not Khmer. Can you tell me what the Khmer worshipped, where the Khmer came from and what they were like before Indian influences?

QUOTE
5) In the Khmer legend of Naga Soma and the indian traveler, the setting begins as an island. And then the father drinks the water surrounding the Mountain and it becomes land. Malay Begin their history on islands and islands are merely tops of Mountains that are submerged under water. The Malay Ethnicity eventually landed on the Asian continent as a result of seafaring and traveling from the islands. This section of the Khmer Legend seems to allude to Seafaring origins or at least you must admit that it alludes to ISLAND origins.


Funan was known for its irrigation and drainage system. When the legend says the Father Drank the water surrounding the land, it is in general agreement among scholars that it had to do with draining parts of the delta for farming.

http://www.khmerinstitute.org/articles/art06lomap.html

QUOTE
IT is believed in the time before the Aryan invaded when there was only the dravidian, the Malay Ethnicty penetrated the Indiean SUbcontient and shared their Austronesian language and culture to the dravidians.


Is there any proof of this? Or is it just a random belief of an individual? If you do have any proof of this please provide us with how there is “EVIDENCE” of the Malays penetrating deep within the Indian subcontinent and shared the Austronesian Language and culture with the Dravidians. I would love to learn more about this subject of Austronesian Malays influence among the Dravidian Indians.


QUOTE
Straddling the Border of India and Myanmar are people called the "Naga" who live on a mountainous region called Nagaland. Although they speak a Sino-Tibetian language, as a result of living amongst Sino-Tibetian speakers, their culture is distinctly Austronesian. Due to their relative isolation in the mountains they were able to preserve their original culture which shows their original identity. The Naga’s culture is hauntingly identical to the Native Igorot Mountain tribes of the Philippines. Both Practice Headhunting. Both have similar dress and cloth making. Both have the same tattoo traditions. Both have similar customs in many other ways.


What is Austronesian culture? What do they practice and what is it about them that distinct them from others? If you ask me, the tribals of South America, Africa, Phillipines, and the Pacific resemble each other a whole lot. Are the Tribals of Africa, South America, Phillipines and Pacific all practicing Austronesian culture or are they just practicing what every pre-civilized society practices?

QUOTE
I strongly believe that the Naga of Nagaland and the Naga mentioned in [th]e Khmer legend are the same tribe of the Austronesian Malay Ethnicity who were the group of Malays explored the indian subcontinent, mixed cultures with the dravidians’ snake cult, and then returned on a eastward jounrey back to hometown Southeast Asia. Then the Tribe split up one settled in Nagaland and the other settled in Southeast Asia.. Just like the Mon-Khmer split up and went their separate ways.


Do you have any proof other then your “Strong Beliefs” that the Naga of Nagaland are actually Austronesian Malays ethnicity? Also do you have any solid evidence that the Nagas traveled eastward into Southeast Asia?

Also one last question, what ethnic/race are you?

-malays always think that the other civilizations that was derived from the Yangtze Valley Civilization traded or helped by them or made by them but it's not and now they are claiming Funan a which is a Mon-Khmer civilization
777
QUOTE (Kambolizhuz @ Feb 26 2004, 08:10 PM)
QUOTE (LAKK @ Feb 26 2004, 01:29 AM)

the thai's and laos do resemble us in some ways.

Probably thought adaptation and marrying one another but I have to agree with angkorwat19 that we did not came from China. B/c if you look at majority of dark skin Khmer they do not have slanted eyes but round ones. The light ones seem to have slanted eyes, probably of interbleed with the Chinese in Urban areas. And the majority of Thai and Lao have slanted eyes, even if they are dark.

I find that the idea that "Khmers did not originate from China because they don't have slant eyes" to be stupid, as if you have to have slant eyes to live in China. Southern China was a very different place back then. Also, do you doubt that even if Khmers and Chinese generally don't look the same, that they look similar? So, if Khmers didn't come from China, where did they come from (since SE Asia were originally the homeland of Negritos)?

Austroasiatic people did not come from India. There are isolated tribes in India who speak languages related to Khmer, but these tribes live in the forests and are not adopted to Indian culture. Also, they look more Chinese than the Khmers. These tribes migrated, as hunter-gatherers, into eastern India, and they look nothing like the Indians.

The ancestral home of the Austroasiatics is most likely southwestern China, just as Austronesians origimnate from southeastern China. These two groups are the earliest to enter into SE Asia from opposite directions. Isolated Austroasiatic speaking communities still exist there. All of their names start with an "M" or "Km" or "Kw" or "W", so this M-W must be an ancient ethnic name in their memories. Khmer, Mon, Khmu, Wa, and so and so, except the Viet, and we know why that is.

Of all the countries in eastern Asia, China is the only one with all of the Asian linguistic families in her territory, and scientists generally agree that southern China was the homeland for all of the SE Asian groups.

The flatness of the face, the epicanthic fold (slant), and the fatty build-up on the face are later adaptations.

The original "Asian" probably approxiamtes that of the Taiwanese aboriginals and the South American Indians. Taiwanese aboriginals look very Asian but do not have the specialized features.

The Cambodian look isn't a look per se. There is a Negrito component, followed by an Indian one, and then later the Tai and Chinese strains.

To deny that Khmers came from China and to assert that Khmers came from India is kind of silly, especially considering that the Austroasiatic tribes in NE India are considered outcasts and most Indian would roll their eyes if a Khmer tried to say that he was of Indian origin.

Cambolizhuz, you seem to be very biased and racist against Chinese, considering that are part Chinese.
angkorwat19
those ethnic minorities in northeastern india are outcasts? i remember reading that the munda people(austroasiatic speaking people) were orginially from northwestern india but the aryans pushed them eastward. i can't find the source anymore because i get into a habit of not saving articles from the internet. the mundas were farmers and they used spears to fight enemies but now they use them to hunt food. they went from farmers to hunters and gatherers. i don't deny khmers might have come from southwestern china because as you mentioned earlier, the Wa people and the De'ang people speak mon-khmer but these people do not look anything like mons and khmers who share common ancestry. why are you accusing kamolizhuz to be a racist toward chinese? she only said that khmers don't have slanted eyes like chinese. what's wrong with that statement? i used to think khmers migrated from northeastern india until i found the source below. sorry no link for it. i didn't saved.

check this out. the source mentioned the mon-khmer people originated from the yangtze kiang valley.

Language

The Mon language is not a tonal language. It is entirely different from both the Myanmar and Thai languages. It is closely related to Khmer. It is important to note that Mon-Khmer is a linguistic term. Mon in the west and Khmer in the east with cognate languages and dialects in between them are grouped as the Mon-Khmer family in the field of linguistics.

It is impotant to distinguish between race and language. For instance, Mon, Khmer, Myanmar and Thai and Mongoloid in race. But they speak different languages. On the other hand the Negroids who live in the south coast speak basically Mon-Khmer. Mon is in the Austric Family but in the Austroasiatic sub-division.


The people and the homeland

Of the present inhabitants of Myanmar, the Mons are the oldest. Their language, Austroasiatic, is related more or less distantly to other languages. The more you study the languages of Myanmar the more widespread you will find the culture of the Mons.

The Mons of Myanmar have always tended to hug the east of Myanmar rather than the west. Thus, early in the Christian Era, their hold of Southern Myanmar was impaired by the infiltration of South Indians by sea, mostly by the Delta.

In Siam, during the 7th century A.D, the Mon Kingdom of Dvaravati was at it’s height. It was a Buddhist Kingdom, centred at Lopburi. Meanwhile in Myanmar the Tibeto-Burmans were coming in from the north. By the 7th century, their leader, the PYU, now civilized, had occupied the Ayeyarwady valley west of the Mons, and reached Pyay at the head of the Delta, where they founded the first great capital of Myanmar, Sri Ksetra.

In respect of the Mon homeland, A.H. Chiristie once suggested Tongkin Basin as the swarming ground of the Mon-Khmer. In his article on "Chinese and Indo-Europeans", E.G. Pulleyblank writes: "The word for river in Chinese Kiang or Chiang, can now be shown to have pronounced something like Karwz or Krawz in old Chinese. It is no doubt cognate to the Mon-Khmer word for river."

There was a linguistic paper by Professors Jerry Norman and Tsu-Lin Mei presented to the 3rd Sino-Tibetan Conference in 1970. The authors stated that ancient South China was almost exclusively populated by non-Chinese people. They also stated that the Austroasiatic family of languages includes Munda in northern India, Khasi in Assam; Palaung-Wa in Upper Myanmar and Yunnan; Mon-Khmer in Lower Myanmar and Combodia; as well as in parts of Vietnam, Laos and Thailand.

As the Chinese came down from their homeland in the Yellow River valley they met Mon-Khmer in the middle of the Yangtze region between 1000 and 500 B.C, when the Chinese adopted the Mon-Khmer word Krung/Krong/Krag which has evolved to the modern Chinese word Kiang or Chiang for river.

All the statements support the assumption of taking Yangtze Kiang Valley as the original homeland of the Mon-Khmer. In the Mon language, the word Krung/Krug means river in ancient literature and old Mon inscriptions but it means creek or stream in modern Mon. Because the Mons had obtained the Sanskrit word Mahasamudra for sea or ocean their own word for ocean labi subsequently changed to river and their word for river, to creek or stream.




The Migration

The Mon-Khmer were the pioneers in wet-rice cultivation and their migration has something to do with the rice. Irrigated rice is one of the great economic discoveries in the history of humanity. It is the prime product of Southeast Asia and the first contribution to civilization.

Due to the rapid growth of population the Tongking Plain became overcrowded and a great number of Mon-Khmer fell back along the Red River, the shortest and easiest route to the Ganges Plain in India. On their way they passed the delta of the Ayeyarwady River in Ramannadesa in Lower Myanmar.

In 832 Nancho sacked the PYU capital, and in 835 the two chief cities, very likely Mon, of Lower Myanmar. This is likely to have been the moment when the MRANMA appeared upon the scene. They formed part of a new migration of Tibeto-Myanmar speaking people. Descending suddenly from the Shan Hills, they conquered Kyaukse from the Mons. Mons fell back towards the South, and they must have been thick along the Samon and Sittaung Valleys.

But a number of Mons were isolated in the North and Northwest of Kyaukse. There was a Mon Prelates resident in Kyaukse even in the middle of the Bagan period: he left an inscription in Old Mon which still stands on the northwest side of Kyaukse Hill.


Religion

The Bamas learnt letters and Buddhism from the Mons. Though, close kin to the PYU, they adopted not PYU writing, but Mon. Two centuries later they also got Brahmanism as well as Buddhism from the Mons.

The oldest writings found at Tavoy are Mon and Buddhist; they date only from the Bagan period. Pali-Mon Kalyani inscriptions of Bago 1479 A.D showed the accounts of war of the Aniruddha. The Cambojans, hoping to conquer all the Mon, invaded lower Myanmar. By that time the Mons were weakened by clannishness, the quarrels of Thaton and Bago; the rivalry of India settlements in the Delta, and the religious struggle between the older cults of Sanskrit Bhrahmanism and the conquering cult of Pali Buddhism. Aniruddha seized this moment to step in. A genuine religio-national impulse stirred him. The captured King Makuta and his family were allowed some royal state and settled at Myinkaba, a mile south of Bagan, where they built in stone the Nanpaya, a little gem of Mon culture.

Kyansittha wed his own daughter to the Mon prince the grandson of Makuta and promised the throne to the sibling of their wedlock. All the 12 inscriptions were inscribed by him only in Mon. His temples too, are of a distinctive type, PYU perhaps in plan and structure, Mon in decoration and stone sculpture. Later inscriptions called him "Klan cacsa’ the soldier, the modern version of which is Kyansittha.

At Shwezigon Pagoda; it’s original name, Jayabhumi (Zibon) was soon corrupted into "Zigon". The two four-faced pillars set up on the east side of the pagoda is a grand inscription of his legend. Kyansittha’’ deadbed scene is told in the Rajakumar inscription of the Myinkaba Kubyaukgyi. The date is approximately 1113 A.D. Inscribed in four languages Mon, Pali, in place of Sanskrit and Myanmar, which appears for the first time, PYU for the last.

Remannadesa

Ramannadesa means country of the Ramans. Raman is the name for Mon in olden days. It was in lower Myanmar comprising fertile deltas of the Ayeyarwady, the Sittaung and Thanlwin. The old Indians and Ceylonese referred to it as Suvanabhumi, meaning goldenland.

Mon settlements were found not only in Myanmar but also in old Siam. Ramannadesa or Lower Myanmar was the western Mon Kingdom and in the old Siam known as Dvaravati, was the eastern Mon Kingdom.

The Bago Kalyani inscription engraved in the 15th century A.D. by a Mon King Dhammazeti (Ramadhipati) in Pali and Mon repeated these terms as country of the Mons. The capital of the Mon country was known as Sudhamavati, meaning city of the good law. Historians have regarded it as the cradle of the first region of Buddhism in old Myanmar.

The Mon people lived in three provinces of Ramannadesa such as Pathein, Hamsavati (Bago) and Mottama. Mon chronicles gives a list of 57 kings beginning from Siharaja and ending with Manuha.

The second capital of Ramamadesa, Mottama was founded by a commoner Mon King known as Magadu: Magadu built Mottama and founded his dynasty in the 13th century. His father-in-law; king of Sukhothai (Ramkhamheang) conferred on him the title of Werirow which means the king who has come down from the sky.

Eight Kings ruled Mottama. The eighth king Banya U after 16 years of his reign shifted the capital from Mottama to Hamsavati (Bago). That was the second time for Bago to become the capital of Ramannadesa. Banya U’s son and successor Banya New was the most famous Mon king of Hamsavati he bore two titles as Siharaja rajadhirit and Sutasona rajadhiraj. His daughter Banya Thao (Sin Saw Pu) became queen of Ramannadesa in a later period. She was the only queen in the history of Mon and Myanmar.

Modern Bago was formerly known as Hamsavati (city of Brahmani duck). Bago also had an Indian name Ussa, which was derived from Orissa in the east coast of India with which the Mons had very early contacts.
Menikani
QUOTE
Also, do you doubt that even if Khmers and Chinese generally don't look the same, that they look similar?


You have to really be blind to not notice the differences in appearances of Khmer and Chinese. Ask any Chinese person here, they would tell you that Khmer and Chinese look nothing alike. I'm not just saying this either, why do you think people describe Khmers as dark skin with round eyes while describe Chinese as light skin, slanted eyes?

Also Northeast India and Southwest China is pretty much the same region. It does not make you Chinese or Indian just because your tribe migrated from one of those region sometimes ago. I don't know any Khmer claiming to be Indian, we have our own identity. Only a lost person, someone without an identity would go back tracing their roots in hope of finding themselves a common origin that they could be proud of.

You say the Austroasiatic tribes in India look nothing like the Indians, so do you have any pictures of these Austroasiatic Tribes of India?
777
QUOTE (Menikani @ Apr 26 2004, 08:47 PM)

QUOTE
You have to really be blind to not notice the differences in appearances of Khmer and Chinese. Ask any Chinese person here, they would tell you that Khmer and Chinese look nothing alike. I'm not just saying this either, why do you think people describe Khmers as dark skin with round eyes while describe Chinese as light skin, slanted eyes?


I never said Chinese look the same as Cambodians, but you'd have to be blind not to see the similarities. Same and similar are two different words.

QUOTE
Also Northeast India and Southwest China is pretty much the same region. It does not make you Chinese or Indian just because your tribe migrated from one of those region sometimes ago. I don't know any Khmer claiming to be Indian, we have our own identity. Only a lost person, someone without an identity would go back tracing their roots in hope of finding themselves a common origin that they could be proud of.


There is a huge difference. SW China is actually near Vietnam, and NE India is actually separated with it by Tibet. Also, there is a huge difference in this fact, if you say that Austroasiatic is from NE India, where were they before that? Pakistan?
Austroasiatic didn't even originate in SW China, it entered SE Asia from there. Proto-Austroasiatic developed somewhere in souther China.
Also, who says Cambodians are Chinese? Back in prehistory there wasn't a country called China or even a people called Khmer.

QUOTE
You say the Austroasiatic tribes in India look nothing like the Indians, so do you have any pictures of these Austroasiatic Tribes of India?


QUOTE
You say the Austroasiatic tribes in India look nothing like the Indians, so do you have any pictures of these Austroasiatic Tribes of India?


I doubt I can find pictures of Austroasiatics in India. I do remember seeing them in a National Geographic book, where they were all naked with bows and machetes and they definitely don't look Indian. Northern Indians are a sub-group of the Caucasian race and their languages are related to English rather than to Cambodian.

I'm sorry to break your bone but I'm just telling you the truth. Go to any library and a book will be able to explain it better than me. Or why not go up to an Indian person and test you opinion on him. kiss.gif

I don't understand why this need among a lot of Cambodians to prove their Indian. True, certain Cambodians have an Indian look and ancestry and the culture is certainly derived from India, but to any objective observer or to an Indian, the equation of Cambodian=Indian is laughable.
Menikani
QUOTE
I never said Chinese look the same as Cambodians, but you'd have to be blind not to see the similarities. Same and similar are two different words.


Explain what you mean by similar?

QUOTE
There is a huge difference. SW China is actually near Vietnam, and NE India is actually separated with it by Tibet. Also, there is a huge difference in this fact, if you say that Austroasiatic is from NE India, where were they before that? Pakistan?


There are many theories about were Mon-Khmer came from, I'm not sideing with either one. Both could be possible. I think no one could be for sure where the Mon-Khmer originated from. What you are presenting here is only a theory, not fact. Also if the Mon-Khmer came from SouthWestern China, where were they before that?

QUOTE
Austroasiatic didn't even originate in SW China, it entered SE Asia from there. Proto-Austroasiatic developed somewhere in souther China.


Where do you think AustroAsiatic originated from?

QUOTE
Also, who says Cambodians are Chinese? Back in prehistory there wasn't a country called China or even a people called Khmer.


Pre-History? I would'nt associate the year 1000 B.C. - 300. B.C. as Pre-History. I believe back then there was a nation called China. In some theories, it is believed that the Mon-Khmer entered Southeast Asia at that time.


QUOTE
I doubt I can find pictures of Austroasiatics in India. I do remember seeing them in a National Geographic book, where they were all naked with bows and machetes and they definitely don't look Indian.


What were these AustroAsiatic Indians called? I'll do some research on them.

QUOTE
Northern Indians are a sub-group of the Caucasian race and their languages are related to English rather than to Cambodian. I'm sorry to break your bone but I'm just telling you the truth. Go to any library and a book will be able to explain it better than me. Or why not go up to an Indian person and test you opinion on him. 


Actually, I already know this. Saying that the ancient Mon-Khmer were from Northeast India dosen't mean they are dravidians or Aryans. Like you said, the world was different back then. Maybe back then Northeast India was only inhabited by Mon-Khmer type people. But then again, your theory about coming from Southwestern China could also be true.

QUOTE
I don't understand why this need among a lot of Cambodians to prove their Indian. True, certain Cambodians have an Indian look and ancestry and the culture is certainly derived from India, but to any objective observer or to an Indian, the equation of Cambodian=Indian is laughable.


I don't know why you think Cambodians are claiming to be part Indian. I'm really interested in why you think this, maybe someone somewhere said something? Most Cambodians, actually all Cambodians I know does not claim to be part Indian, unless they know that they have Indian blood.

I don't really care actually were we came from, it's all history and it would'nt change anything at all in my life, so my heart isn't really in this conversation we are having, just don't really care. shrug.gif
BishoujoHunter
pls read this
QUOTE
Sudroids are Africoid - Anthropological investigations have revealed that the Sudras consist of several Black races, some akin to Australoids (the Kolarians or Austric speakers) and some akin to the Africans (the Dravidoids). Recent genetic analyses have confirmed this view, and much evidence from archaeology, physical anthropology, etc. prove this fact [ Sud ]. The view that the Sudras represent a differentiate of the Aryan race is wholly false, as it cannot explain differences in physical anthropology such as the flat Sudric nose (plattyrhinism) and thick lips.
Indo-Aryans - The Indo-Aryans are of Caucasoid stock, quite unrelated to the black-skinned aboriginal Negroid-Australoids. Linguistically, physiognomically and genetically the Indo-Aryans are closely related to Europoids.
Rajputs are Scythian - The Rajputs are descendants of Scythic (East Iranic) immigrants who entered India much after the Aryans. Although false genealogies were invented by the Aryan Brahmins in order to subvert the Rajput religion of Solarism (`Saura') and convert them to the 6 astika schools of Brahmanism, a detailed analysis shows that the Rajputs are Scythics.
The Indo-Islamic (Mughalloid) Race - The Muslims of South Asia are overwhelmingly descendants of `Foreign Mussulman Immigrants', ie. Arabic, Iranic and Turkic races. Even in Bangladesh, more than half of the Muslims are of `Aristocratic Foreign' (`ashraf') descent [ Ris ]. They are hence not Aryan converts.
Mongoloids - Pure Mongoloids inhabit the Himalayas, and the extreme north-east. Genetic analyses have shown them to be more closely related to Chinese and Japanese peoples, a fact which is also borne out by their physiognomy and languages.
Indo-Mon-Khmer Race - The majority of East Indics (Assamics, Vangics, Odrics etc.), except the Aryan upper castes and the Kolarian lower castes, are of Indic Mon-Khmer (a branch of Mongoloids or East Asiatics) stock. Sir Risley has amply demonstrated this stratification in East India [ Ris ].

from:
http://www.dalitstan.org/books/mohr/mohr3.html


I am not Orang Malayu he is stupid he claims that the nagas are malays but the nagas are related to viets and khmers Orang Malayu's and Dalawapo's claims have no DNA evidences whatsoever
777
QUOTE (Menikani @ Apr 26 2004, 11:09 PM)

QUOTE
Explain what you mean by similar?


Similar...hm...for example, that picture of the lady you have...(With her slant eyes and other facial features...she isn't likely to be full Khmer...by the way) can be seen as Asian, but if you just threw that picture to someone, she could be any number of ethnicities to that person.

Similar is also this: Swedish and Indians don't look alike...But they look similar enough.

Similar is what you see...as if I have to describe it to you and you can't see it yourself...Who are you kidding?

QUOTE
There are many theories about were Mon-Khmer came from, I'm not sideing with either one. Both could be possible. I think no one could be for sure where the Mon-Khmer originated from. What you are presenting here is only a theory, not fact. Also if the Mon-Khmer came from SouthWestern China, where were they before that?


No, in academic circles, as far as I know, there is one theory. They came from China. It's not even an issue for them...long dead and settled...
Through archeological anthropological traces (pottery, settlements, axes, cultural remains...Mon-Khmer is traced to southern China). Before SW China, they were prolly even further center and north, but always below the Yantze River.
The "Chinese" kingdoms below the Yantze, (Chu, Wu, Pa, Yueh) some of them atleast, are thought to be non-Sinitic speakers. Some of them could be Austroasiatic speakers.
The word for Yangtze and river in general, klong, is thought to be Austroasiatic, so if you want a place, that should be it. Beyond that, who knows.

Also, shouldn't it pretty obvious, since the Tai-Kadai and Austronesian groups came from southern China, that Mon-Khmers would be too. If you look at the customs, culture, and dress of non-Indianized Mon-Khmer people, they pretty much resemble the other hill peoples of southern China, Thailand, Burma, Vietnam, Laos, the Malay lands, and even Cambodia.

It doesn't take half a brain to connect the two dots together.

QUOTE
Pre-History? I would'nt associate the year 1000 B.C. - 300. B.C. as Pre-History. I believe back then there was a nation called China. In some theories, it is believed that the Mon-Khmer entered Southeast Asia at that time.


I think the Mon-Khmers entered SE Asia earlier than that. Besides, 1000 B.C. -300 B.C. wasn't prehistory for the Chinese (thank God) but it was prehistory for you guys.
Also, most of southern China at that time were still not part of China or any country.

QUOTE
What were these AustroAsiatic Indians called? I'll do some research on them.


One is the Munda...Why don't you search for Austroasiatic languages for one thing...and pictures of Austroasiatic people for another...the hill tribes that should give you an idea of what your ancestors look like before contact with Indian and Negritos...

QUOTE
I don't know why you think Cambodians are claiming to be part Indian.  I'm really interested in why you think this, maybe someone somewhere said something? Most Cambodians, actually all Cambodians I know does not claim to be part Indian, unless they know that they have Indian blood.


I didn't say most Cambodians or all Cambodians. Most Cambodians I know pretty much consider themselves Asian.

QUOTE
I don't really care actually were we came from, it's all history and it would'nt change anything at all in my life, so my heart isn't really in this conversation we are having, just don't really care.  shrug.gif


Don't answer, then.
angkorwat19
im just curious, what are you 777? i really don't care either if we came from southern china or northeastern india. i just find it interesting to know where khmers came from. oh yea, the Wa people (mon-khmer speakers) might have been descendants of the Pu people who lived on edge of cliffs or something like that lol. i remember reading it somewhere. chinese archeologists/historians don't have evidence of the Wa and De'ang people that they adopted mon-khmer language but most likely they did though because austroasiatic speakers collided with sinitic speakers.
Menikani
QUOTE (angkorwat19 @ Apr 27 2004, 12:36 AM)
im just curious, what are you 777? i really don't care either if we came from southern china or northeastern india. i just find it interesting to know where khmers came from. oh yea, the Wa people (mon-khmer speakers) might have been descendants of the Pu people who lived on edge of cliffs or something like that lol. i remember reading it somewhere. chinese archeologists/historians don't have evidence of the Wa and De'ang people that they adopted mon-khmer language but most likely they did though because austroasiatic speakers collided with sinitic speakers.

He is Malay_AKA Phillipino.

Hey AngkorWat19 Clear your Private Message box, I gotta tell you something.
angkorwat19
it's cleared.
Menikani
QUOTE (777 @ Apr 27 2004, 12:17 AM)
Similar...hm...for example, that picture of the lady you have...(With her slant eyes and other facial features...she isn't likely to be full Khmer...by the way) can be seen as Asian, but if you just threw that picture to someone, she could be any number of ethnicities to that person.

Does she look "Full Khmer" Here:



Funny how a none-Khmer knows so much on how a full Khmer or a mixed Khmer is supposed to look. Khmer skin color ranges from Brown to Tan. Anything lighter or darker are probably mixed Khmer. She does not have slant eyes, that is how you'll look when you smile.
angkorwat19
QUOTE
Funny how a none-Khmer knows so much on how a full Khmer or a mixed Khmer is supposed to look. Khmer skin color ranges from Brown to Tan. Anything lighter or darker are probably mixed Khmer. She does not have slant eyes, that is how you'll look when you smile.

i agree. if you want to know how a real khmer suppose to look like, check out the stone faces of the bayon temple.
BishoujoHunter
There are no pure races
Menikani
QUOTE (angkorwat19 @ Apr 27 2004, 01:19 AM)
QUOTE
Funny how a none-Khmer knows so much on how a full Khmer or a mixed Khmer is supposed to look. Khmer skin color ranges from Brown to Tan. Anything lighter or darker are probably mixed Khmer. She does not have slant eyes, that is how you'll look when you smile.

i agree. if you want to know how a real khmer suppose to look like, check out the stone faces of the bayon temple.

Good idea, Let's take a look at some stone faces right now:










As you can see, there are a wide range of looks. So how does a "FULL" Khmer look like 777.
Jotmaimamoreaj
Minikani! those devil tug o war are supposed to be devil. They are not human. They don't represent khmer face.
Menikani
Alright I'll take that picture out.
Jotmaimamoreaj
QUOTE (Menikani @ Apr 27 2004, 12:55 AM)
QUOTE (777 @ Apr 27 2004, 12:17 AM)
Similar...hm...for example, that picture of the lady you have...(With her slant eyes and other facial features...she isn't likely to be full Khmer...by the way) can be seen as Asian, but if you just threw that picture to someone, she could be any number of ethnicities to that person.

Does she look "Full Khmer" Here:



Funny how a none-Khmer knows so much on how a full Khmer or a mixed Khmer is supposed to look. Khmer skin color ranges from Brown to Tan. Anything lighter or darker are probably mixed Khmer. She does not have slant eyes, that is how you'll look when you smile.

Yes I am a khmer person. I think she looks full khmer. Her name is Tith VicharaDany. I saw her in person many times. The last time I saw her was in 1974 filming a movie for my uncle along with Kong Samoeurn. she was one of the most famous khmer actress in 1960's and 70's. She was kill by the communist regime.
Menikani
This is how a Pure Khmer LOOKS.







Some of the faces do look somewhat Sino.
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