The Malay Ethnicity is a race of people, i am not talking about "Malaysians!" Malaysians are part of the Malay Race/Ethnciity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_people

Ok Why is it bad for Funan to be a Malay kingdom? In any case Khmer Chenla conquered it. So if you want to feel good, you can say Chenla, the Cambodian’s first true Kingdom, took over Funan and adopted all its ways and traditions and you continued the legacy of Funan. so in a way, you have rightful claim to Funan as being part of your history But do not be so greedy to say that is your history ALONE. Again, do you at least acknowledge that Chenla was a Vassal state of Funan that took over?

The main reasons why i see Funan as a Malay Kingdom is based on 12 things:

1) Khmer legends say that "Naga" the ones who created Funan with the help of the Hindu were the original inhabitants of Southeast Asia. The Khmer legend does not say that the Khmers themselves were the "Naga" or that they directly created Funan.

http://www.myfriend.org/krousar-thmey/tonlesape/tl02.htm

2) Anthropologically, the first people of Southeast Asia were the Negritos and then the Malays. The third wave into Southeast asia were the Mon-khmer, followed by the Lao, Thai, and Viets these people were pushed southwards as a result of Chinese Expansion.

http://www.guidetothailand.com/thailand-hi...y/beginning.htm

3) the Kingdom of Champa, which was located north of Funan was as early as Funan was and the people of Champa were definitely of the Malay ethnicity as proven through the language which they speak, which is part of the Austronesian language family. Also their native culture which has shown to be Austronesian also supports that they are Malay people as they are matrilineal in custom, and dressed like the malay, in traditional "sarong" and "headdress etc. this is noted by the early Chinese merchants to champa.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761571..._of_Champa.html
[insight guide: Laos & Cambodia book]

4) The "Naga/Snake" legend of the Khmer is not only unique to Khmer people. Champa also have a beginning legend of their Kingdom. the Cham people worshipped Po Nagar, a Naga (Snake) sent from heaven, who united the Cham people, and was their first Empress. She taught the people how to cultivate rice and use medicines. Notice how the Woman is the Master which alludes to Austronesian culture.

http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/f...res/snakes.html

5) In the Khmer legend of Naga Soma and the indian traveler, the setting begins as an island. And then the father drinks the water surrounding the Mountain and it becomes land. Malay Begin their history on islands and islands are merely tops of Mountains that are submerged under water. The Malay Ethnicity eventually landed on the Asian continent as a result of seafaring and traveling from the islands. This section of the Khmer Legend seems to allude to Seafaring origins or at least you must admit that it alludes to ISLAND origins.

6) As i stated the Malay Ethnicity sailed all over the world in Ancient times. From Madagascar to Easter island. The Malay Ethnciity is also said to have entered the Indian subcontient in early times way before India was what it is to this day. This is proven through linguistic evidence as Austronesian linguistic influence can be found in all Indo-European languages both ancient and modern ones, some of the Malay are said to have voyaged into the Indian Subcontinent on their way to Madgascar. During this early time in the Indian subcontinent there was only Dravidian (black skinned) people. The Aryans had not come yet to form what we know today as "indian." The Aryans were the ones who introduced Caste systems and patriarchal lifestyles and made India look like it is to this day ethnically and culturally. The Dravidians of the Indian subcontinent were believers of the "NAGA" SNAKE CULT they are the first to believe in snake cult.

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/reviews/atlantis.html

7) Also the Dravidians were also believers in Matrilineal culture as the Hindu Goddess Kali is proof of this. Kali is among the only female Goddesses of the Hindu Parthenon and also she is depicted as a BLACK OR BLUE SKINNED Woman. Dravidans were black skinned. and Aryans who invaded the Indian subcontinent and mixed with the Dravidian were white. IT is believed in the time before the Aryan invaded when there was only the dravidian, the Malay Ethnicty penetrated the Indiean SUbcontient and shared their Austronesian language and culture to the dravidians. And the matrilenial custom of the Austronesian culture of the Malay was spread to the dravdiian. Kali the Hindu Goddess is said to be 2,000 years old. And The Malay of Madagascar has been there for 2,500 + years old which coincides with the time frame. Obviously some Malay continued without exploring the indian subcontient and other Malay did explore the subcontinent.

http://www.dollsofindia.com/kali.htm

Straddling the Border of India and Myanmar are people called the "Naga" who live on a mountainous region called Nagaland. Although they speak a Sino-Tibetian language, as a result of living amongst Sino-Tibetian speakers, their culture is distinctly Austronesian. Due to their relative isolation in the mountains they were able to preserve their original culture which shows their original identity. The Naga’s culture is hauntingly identical to the Native Igorot Mountain tribes of the Philippines. Both Practice Headhunting. Both have similar dress and cloth making. Both have the same tattoo traditions. Both have similar customs in many other ways.

http://www.angelfire.com/mo/Nagaland/culture.html

9) the Naga of Nagaland also show remnants of NAGA SNAKE CULT. The Naga draw snake motifs on the sides of their buildings among many other things. Also in an Indian epic, the princess Ulupi was a Naga Kanya, that is daughter of the king of snakes. Ulupi’s residence is generally identified in the south-west of Nagaland.I strongly believe that the Naga of Nagaland and the Naga mentioned in [th]e Khmer legend are the same tribe of the Austronesian Malay Ethnicity who were the group of Malays explored the indian subcontinent, mixed cultures with the dravidians’ snake cult, and then returned on a eastward jounrey back to hometown Southeast Asia. Then the Tribe split up one settled in Nagaland and the other settled in Southeast Asia.. Just like the Mon-Khmer split up and went their separate ways.

http://dpsmap.com/news/nagafestival.shtml

10) the word "Naga" which means snake or serpent originated in India not Southeast Asia. So if the "naga" of khmer legend were indigenous to Southeast Asia could not have originally been called "naga" unless it is true that some of the Naga of nagaland migrated to southeast asia and that the naga of nagaland and the naga of south east asia are one tribe that split up. And the naga of southeast asia must be Malay because the Naga of Nagaland are Malay as the native culture of the Naga of nagaland is Austronesian and alludes to their origins.

http://ignca.nic.in/craft056.htm

11) Sailendra Dynasty claimed to be direct Descendants of Funan royalty. Unfortunately it is not believed by Historians that Sailendra Dynasty were Khmer at all. You are only claiming this because i have said that Sailendra claimed to be direct descendants of Funan and that you do not believe Funan is Malay. Historians are certain that Sailendra are Malay. and they speak the Austronesian language. I have never come across writings which try to say Sailendra were Khmer. Unless you can provide me with such evidence that shows Sailendra were Khmer.

http://www.kilidavid.com/Ancient_Civ/Pages...east%20Asia.htm

12) Lastly the Malay ethnicity is also CONTINUING THE NAGA SNAKE CULT. For one example, The Malay ethnicity has a family ancestral sword called a "Keris" it is a wavy blade that is shaped to look much like a snake’s body. The handle of the sword is even designed to look like a serpant’s head which we call a "naga motif." The Keris is a symbol of our ancestors, it is said to be the reincarnation of our ancestors and a true Malay carries their family keris with them at all times and treats it as though it were a part of their body with it’s own life.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/index.htm

NAGA IN THE WORLD

Naga snake cult is found all over the world mainly from India to even the New World (the Ancient Americas) The Ancient Meixcans call the snake "Nagal."

It is proposed that this it due to the Austronesian’s expansion across the world. On their voyage East into the South Pacific, the Polynesian (Malay+Papuan) landed on the Americas and influenced the people.

proof of polynesians encountering south America:

A) The difference between the continental mind and the Austro nesian mind is illustrated by this contrast: Water, in the form of the endless ocean to the west, was the major obstacle for European explorers in their discovery of the New World. But the Gilbert Islanders have an oral history telling of their own discovery of South America in the distant past. On sighting the Andes after an ocean voyage of four months, they were far from pleased, and according to legend, turned around and sailed in disgust back toward their native atolls. They described South America as "Maiwa," the wall at the side of the world, four moons’ sail to the eastward, a land which stretches to the north and to the south without end: "beyond the furthest eastward island it lies, a wall of mountains up against the sun." To these islanders, a continent was an obstacle; to Westerners, an ocean was the obstacle.

http://members.fortunecity.com/dikigoros/themalays.htm

B) Also the introduction of the sweet potatoe which is endemic to South America into asia sugggests polynesian migration to South America and then a return with goods that were acquired: This Discuses the migratory waves of the Philippines....The second Austronesian wave TO THE PHILIPPINES came north from Sulawesi after a population explosion there supposedly caused by the introduction of the sweet potato brought from South America by the Polynesians. The languages of southern and western Mindanao and of the Sulu Islands are from this wave, but if it reached Bicol, there is nothing left of them now.

http://mikenassau.freehomepage.com/bicol.html

C) Also certain tribes of south America seem to have linguistic influences of Polynesian lanuage which belongs to the Austronesian Language Family and also genetics in some of the tribal minorities of the Americas: Taroscans & Incas

The Tarascans were a semi-civilised nation of Mexico at the time of the Aztecs, to whom they were allied. Inca are the civilzation found in the moountainous region of Peru where the Polynesian is siad to have voyaged as i stated above.

D) The Language script of the Easter Islanders (Austronesian island closest to South America) are lingustically linked to the Ancient Dravidians of the Indian Subcontienent:

Rongo Rongo
There are tablets found on the island bearing a mysterious script. The script, known as Rongo Rongo, has never been deciphered despite the work of generations of linguists. A Hungarian scholar, Wilhelm or Guillaume de Hevesy, in 1932 called attention to the apparent similarities between some of the rongo-rongo characters of Easter Island and those of the prehistoric script of the Indus Valley in India, correlating dozens (at least 40) of the former with corresponding signs on seals from Mohenjo-daro. This correlation has been re-published in later books, for example by Z.A. Simon (1984: 95). The rongo-rongo may mean peace-peace, and their texts may record peace treaty documents, possibly between the long ears and the conquering short ears. Such explanations have, however, been strongly disputed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Island

SNAKE CULTURE IN THE MALAY* WORLD:

http://www.theserenedragon.net/Tales/polynesia.html

http://www.ncca.gov.ph/culture&arts/culart...m-sarimanok.htm -PHILIPPINE NAGA & SARIMANOK (our ancient mythical bird)

These are some of the reasons why i believe the naga of southeast asia were Malay. Again, i don’t think it is bad to say Naga were Malay who created Funan Kingdom with the influence of Hindu people . It does not take away from Cambodia, because the Khmer vassal state of Chenla conquered Funan and ADOPTED FUNAN into itself, so two become one. So no one could say Funan is not part of Khmer history, because in essence Khmer continue to keep the legacy of Funan alive, because Chenla did not destroy Funan but adopt Funan’s culture and lifestyle, and as some people think (uglykhmer562) the Khmer mixed with the Funanese Ethnicity (Malay). But, i personally believe that for the most part, the Khmer Chenla drove the Malay away from Mainland Asia. Some fled to the islands and one group formed the Sailendra dynasty on Java which was very intergal in Khmer history you have to admit. Because Jayavarman II learned Hindu culture in Java and took the title of "King of the Mountain" from Sailendra which means "Lords of the Mountain." And Sailendra are said to have taken the title from Funan, their ancestor, which was "King of the Moountain" right?

But in any case, my intention was never to concentrate on the statement that Funan was a malay kingdom but rather i am most interested in the NAGA depicted in the khmer legend.. Funan is strongly history of the Khmer. But Naga is very early history of the Malay Ethnicity (not to be confused with the Malaysian which is a non-existant country of a group of Malays at this time). So be proud of Funan as you wish. besides the Malay has Champa to represent as an early Malay hinduized kingdom.

PEACE, let us not fight any longer, and recognize that our history of southeast asia is intertwined like thread of a rope and we should never hate on each other but respect. And i can respect Cambodian so much because they were able to PRESERVE their culture for so long whereas the Malay fell VICTIM to Foreign CONQUERERS and their lifestyle and religion such as Islam for the Malays of Indonesia and Christianity for the Malays of the Philippines. Only Bali is a safe haven for the Malays who wish to continue hindu lifestyle. And Madagascar, the Igorot of the Philippines, and the South pacific are the only safe haven for Malays who desire to preserve our Native Austronesian culture.

Lets not fight any more and be proud that there is evidence to show that we are all related in some way.

You know one khmer said: "There is a lot of problems with Funan. From a historical view there is as lot problems to prove that they were Khmer because the first inscription found in Khmer is dated to 611. Many historian view Funan as pre Khmer kingdom."

"Khmer fought many wars with Champa and our ancestor help the Viets destroy that country. Khmer attack one side and the Vietnamese from the other. So I guess it`s our Karma because if Champa was still here it will serve as a buffer state between Srok Khmer and Vietnam."

So you see, if our ancestors went about this a different way, maybe Khmer would not be in the predicament it is today with Khmer Krom and the Champa would not be a landless Malay Ethnicity.

[This I originally wrote this to a khmer who i was talking to about Funan, he was offended that i claimed Funan as a Malay state. Please do not be offended also, i am just presenting you with these histories which suggest Funan was early Malay that was conquered by Chenla, the Khmer's first true Kingdom.]

Hello malay_ako,

I would just like to ask you some questions and post comments if you don't mind.



I believe Funan was a mixture of Indian/Khmer. And I believe the Khmer Language was the dominant language since the Chinese derived the word “Funan” from the Khmer word “Phnom”. If Khmer was not the language spoken in Funan, can you tell me what language they spoke? If they spoke another language, I would have to believe it was an Indian language and not a Malay, I would believe the language has to be either Sankirt or Khmer.



Just because the legend does not say Nagas are Khmer themselves does not mean they were not Khmer. Can you tell me what the Khmer worshipped, where the Khmer came from and what they were like before Indian influences?



Funan was known for its irrigation and drainage system. When the legend says the Father Drank the water surrounding the land, it is in general agreement among scholars that it had to do with draining parts of the delta for farming.

http://www.khmerinstitute.org/articles/art06lomap.html



Is there any proof of this? Or is it just a random belief of an individual? If you do have any proof of this please provide us with how there is “EVIDENCE” of the Malays penetrating deep within the Indian subcontinent and shared the Austronesian Language and culture with the Dravidians. I would love to learn more about this subject of Austronesian Malays influence among the Dravidian Indians.




What is Austronesian culture? What do they practice and what is it about them that distinct them from others? If you ask me, the tribals of South America, Africa, Phillipines, and the Pacific resemble each other a whole lot. Are the Tribals of Africa, South America, Phillipines and Pacific all practicing Austronesian culture or are they just practicing what every pre-civilized society practices?



Do you have any proof other then your “Strong Beliefs” that the Naga of Nagaland are actually Austronesian Malays ethnicity? Also do you have any solid evidence that the Nagas traveled eastward into Southeast Asia?

Also one last question, what ethnic/race are you?

Hello Menikani,

"Malay_ako" advances an interesting argument about "Funan". You ask very important questions and raise relevant ISSUES. Once on this discussion board, someone posted a very brief information that points out that the early Khmer immigrants might interbreed with the indigeneous "Negritoes" of Funan. Also, the Javanese royal families members of Indonesia still claim that their ancestors actually immigrated from "Funan" after Funan collapsed. Let us wait and see if Malay_ako can further clarify the origin of the "Funanese" and the Khmer.

FKR

As I understand it, South India heavily influenced the culture, religion and aesthetics of Funan and other Southeast Asian cultures at the time, until Arab culture followed.

There are contradicting claims about how Indian influence came to Southeast Asia. Some say it was by peaceful transmission of scholars, literature and art, and some say it was an invasion. I haven't read too much about Southeast Asian history, so I don't know.

all i know is, the khmer population wasn't big to begin with. they had to go through wars and they'd won a lot of wars during ancient times. they also captured many of their enemies and got them assimilated. so today's khmer race could be a mixture of khmer/malays/mons and that's just what i think.

Hello FKR,

I to am waiting for a response from Malay_ako, I want for him to elaborate how he came up with the argument that claims Funan was a Malay Kingdom. His resources does not really support his claims, his main source is "I think" and "Strong Beliefs". Also I want to ask Malay_ako that IF it is proven with scientific facts and found out to be true that Funan was a Malay kingdom, what do you want out of it?

As stated, It is widely acknowledged by historians that Chenla, a vassal state of Funan conquered Funan and adopted much of its ways into its own. And Chenla is generally acknowledged as the Khmer Ethnicity's 1st true Kingdom. I fail to see the reason why Khmer would be so against the fact that Funan was not a homogenous Khmer kingdom. At the time of Funan the region was populated by Many Negritos, Malay, and Khmer ethnicities so in any case Funan's citizens was a diverisfied mix. Also Funan is a Hindu Kingdom, meaning that it is not even Native creation but a foreign influenced Kingdom of Southeast Asia.

"Migrations into the mainland regions of Southeast Asia from the north continued well into historic times. The ancestors of the Cambodians came with earlier waves that followed in the wake of the proto-Malays. The Cambodians are closely related to the Mon who settled further to the west but of whom only small pockets survive in Thailand and Burma.

According to conventional history based largely on Chinese sources, when the Cambodians arrived in presentday Cambodia, two powerful states had already been established there by people of the Malay stock--Champa, controlling part of central and southern Vietnam, and Founan (Funan), sited in the southernmost part of Vietnam and most of presentday Cambodia. Founan was at the height of its power at the end of the fifth century A.D. Some scholars, such as Nasuruddin, believe that the court of Founan had Indian dance and music which spread to the other parts of the Kingdom (1992:2), but Chandler (1992:13ff) casts doubt on the reliability of the Chinese sources.

It is believed that one of Founan`s vassals was the Cambodian state of Chenla, situated in presentday northern Cambodia and southern Laos. By about the middle of the sixth century A.D., Chenla overcame Founan and reversed the pattern of overlord and vassal. About A.D. 627, Chenla completely absorbed Founan, during the reign of Isanvarman I who married a princess of the neighboring kingdom of Champa, and extended his domains westward until it bordered the Mon kingdom of Dvaravati (Cambodia 1969:104). Before the end of Jayavarman I`s reign, Chenla was showing signs of breaking up. Civil war followed his death, and the country split into two parts: Land Chenla (northern part) and Water Chenla (southern part), and Cambodian power suffered an eclipse for more than a century."

http://research.umbc.edu/eol/cambodia/histcamb.htm

"Ancient Khmers, said to be of Austroasiatic Language Family, for sure had migrated towards the land of today's Thailand in the south. What remained unsure would be whether it was related to the southwestern expansion by Qin/Han Chinese. http://www.khmerclub.com/History.htm claimed that the ancestors of Khmers "moved southward before 200 BC into the fertile Mekong delta from the Khorat Plateau of what is now Thailand". In the Mekong Delta already existed a statelet called Funan as recorded in Chinese Chronicles of 2nd century AD, a maritime state with same commercial importance as Champa in acting as a stopover for Arabs/Romans and Chinese. Funan was later conquered by its vassal, i.e., Chenla ("Kambuja" by Khmer), which was said to be a "more direct ancestor of the Khmer Empire" per http://spirit.dos.uci.edu/cambo/knowledge/history.html in 7th century AD. Defeated by Java, Prince Jayavarman II of Chenla served hostage at the Java court and returned to become king of a later Angkor Empire in 790 AD. Zhenla or Chang-la, spelled Zhenla in Mandarin, was recorded in Chinese chronicles to be a country where male population were small in size but dark in skin, some females were said to have lighter skin, and the Chang-la people all had curly hair.

Funanese http://spirit.dos.uci.edu/cambo/knowledge/chenla.html

“Normally the Chinese are not impressed by the accomplishments of other people, but Funan's visitors brought back a favorable report of the country's Malay upper class, which had palaces, abundant treasures, and a system of writing related to Sanskrit. Most of the people, however, were apparently Negrito, for one Chinese described them as "ugly and black," with frizzy hair. This same ambassador was offended by the sight of the Negritos walking around naked, and when he told this to the king of Funan, a law was passed requiring all to wear clothing in public, and the traditional Cambodian "sampot" or loincloth was invented.”

http://www.guidetothailand.com/thailand-hi...y/beginning.htm




I can not tell you what Khmer were before the advent of Indian influence because i am not that knowledgeable about all of the Khmer Ethnicity's history. What i do know about its early pre-funan/hindu culture is from the legend of Soma and the Naga. And in the legend, it specifcally states that naga were acknowledged as the first inhabitants of the region. And through an anthropologic comparison, the first inhabitants of southeast Asia were said to be the Negrito followed by the Malay Ethnicity who existed for quite some time before the 3rd wave, the Mon-Khmer who themselves split up: the Mon traveled further West into present day Burma and the Khmer settled in the Southeast Asian Mainland met with Funan kingdom, established Chenla vassal state, and eventually took over Funan and adopted all its ways.

what you should know is Naga is not unique to Cambodia, Naga means "serpant/snake" in indian language and originates in pre-aryan dravidian culture and harappan civilization of the indian subcontienet. These Dravidans (related to negritos) practiced snake cult but this practice eventually died down as the result of the white Aryans who invaded the indian subcontiennt and brought their own customs of Patrilineal cultures among other things taht drastically changed Dravidian culture and Harappan society.. 2ndly the matrineilnal culture is unique to the Austronesian malay who is said to have penetrated the indian subconnteinte long before the Ayran invasion when there was only Dravidians and they had some sort of cultural inegration. Kali the hindu goddess is said to be a pre-aryan goddess as women are seldomly protraryed in the Indian partyiaon and that the diety is said tob e about 2,000 years old. the Malays who went to madgascar are said to have settled abouot 2,500 years ago so this certainly coincides with the malay migration of some malay stoping and exploring the Indian subcontient and other Malay continuing on their way straight to Madgasacar, because the malays of Madagascar do not have much hindu cultural influence in their culture.



Yes there is substancial ANTHROPOLOIC, LINGUSTIC EVIDENCE, among other SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE which prooves that some of the Austronesian Malay settled into the Indian subcontinent during their Ancient Western Migration through the Indian OCean to madagascar island. I have provided links to sites to verify the statements that i have made in the posts, but here are some others to collaborate:

"Many experts believe that certain cultural items in India like the outrigger ships, the coconut, the betel, etc., may have actually been introduced by Austronesian peoples. Although no true Austronesian languages exist in modern India, studies have shown that there are such influences in both modern and ancient Indian languages. A good work summarizing some of the earlier studies done by Przyluski, Levy and others is P.C. Bagchi's Pre-Aryan and Pre-Dravidian in India."
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm

"During the Ancient migration of the Austronesian Malay people, It is quite certain that some of these Austronesians must have landed in India, some on their way to Madagascar, some to stay and mix with the natives. Hence the presence of some Austronesian words in Indian languages of all families, most prominently ayi/bayi, “mother” (as in the Marathi girls’ names Tarabai, Lakshmi-bai etc.), or words for “bamboo", “fruit", “honey”. More spectacularly, linguists like Isidore Dyen have discerned a considerable common vocabulary in the core lexicon of Austronesian and Indo-European, including pronouns, numerals (e.g. Malay dva, “two") and terms for the elements.

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/reviews/atlantis.html

"Austronesia, as a culture, formerly extended deeply into Southern Asia, including the Indochinese peninsula, much of southern China and northeastern India. The enlargement and expansion of the continental civilizations of the Orient, and in particular the southward expansion of the Chinese culture (which in turn caused large numbers of adjacent peoples, such as Burmese, Thais and Vietnamese to move south into Indochina) had the effect of submerging the Austronesian culture there. Some of the tribal peoples in Burma, southern China and northeastern India, such as the Nagas, represent remote surviving enclaves of Austronesian influence."

http://members.fortunecity.com/dikigoros/themalays.htm

"Although only 24 distinct Mundic languages are recognized today, many scholars believe that an ancient Mundic language (or related Austric language) was prevalent in prehistoric West India. Perhaps the Harappans and even the Sumerians spoke an ancient Mundic language. One scholar finds strong similarities between Harappan script and a rare Mundic script (though spoken languages and scripts often have unrelated origins). Another scholar finds similarities between Harappan script and Easter Island script! (The Easter Island language, Polynesian, is classed [as Austronesian] in the same Austric superphylum as Mundic.) This gives rise to a provocative (if far-fetched) theory since the Polynesians and the Harappans were the two greatest seafaring people before the rise of the Phoenicians, and the rise of Harappan seapower is roughly contemporaneous with the arrival of polynesians [malay] in the Indian Ocean. (The Polynesians certainly investigated the Indian coast, although most of their permanent settlements were on islands.)"

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~j...ech/lmusing.htm

Note Harappan is the pre-aryan civilization of India. Aryan are the European people who invaded the Indian subcontinent and introduced such things as the caste system etc, and not to mention displaced the dravidians and made India what it is known today.



Austronesian culture is the NATIVE culture of the Malay Ethnicity a people who intially originated in the island of Taiwan before spreading into the islands of the Philippines, Indonesia, up through Malaysia etc. and some went as far west to Madagascar, and the other Malay went as far east into the South Pacific and eventually became known as the Polynesian (Malay+Papuan).. It is distinct and originated 6,000 years ago on the island of Taiwan after the Malay's lengthy split from Southern China as it was the Malay's inital sail to the island of Taiwan that really birthed this Austronesian Identity and seafaring migration.

"The speakers of the Austronesian language family, culture, and race are thought to have originated in southern China (the Yellow River valleys) and migrated via Taiwan into the islands of the Philippines (about 2500BC), Indonesia, Malaysia, and out into the Pacific (about 1000BC)."

http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_malayo.html

The distintive qualities of the Austronesian are as follow:

1) Matrilineal custom: meaning that women have historically been in place of power and position in the Malay's Society. Women have historically been Queens and inheritors and controllers of property, finance, etc. this is unique from peoples of Africa, South America and much of the World outside the Malay's territoral extent of Madagascar to Easter Island. (The Philippines & the South Pacific are within this Malay Territory)

2) Austronesian Language (all the Malay regardless of what island they are on in the Indian or Pacific Oceans speak a language belonging to but ONE LANGUAGE FAMILY called AUSTRONESIAN)

3) Austronesian peoples share the basic Malay Ethnicity: being Malays or Mixed Malays in the case of "Polynesians" who are said to be (Malays mixed with Papuans)

4) headhunting, an ancient yet prevelant custom adhered to mainly by the Igorot, the Naga of Nagaland, and those who were spared Foreign influences and foreign civilizations.

5) Sea-faring (that is how we were able to settle all the islands of the Indian and Pacific Oceans)

6) Strong communities based on ties to the sea, we Malay generally settled in and around the coasts of islands to keep our ties to the sea and rarely journeyed deep inland. But in the Case of the Naga, they did go inland and settled in the Mountainous region. But their culture presents their ties to the sea as Every tribe, clan, has its own myths of the origin of the Naga people, tracing between them their first homes, it is suggested that their love of marine shells points to a bygone settlement near the sea, their spears (with ornamental barbs curling outward from a shaft) suggested some relationship with the resident of the Philippine Islands and Indonesian people, generally by the use of the lion loom,

7) Family & Extended Family (Strong bonds of kinship) which means we have a unique practice of bonded families and also acceptance of extended families (cousins etc) into the main nuclear family.

8) Distinct Textiles and metal works and design. SAME FEATHERED HEADDRESS, STRIPED CLOTHING DESIGN ETC. SAME BEADWORK

9) A distinct Tattoo art. Our designs are made with geometric designs and made by the same type of tools both these thigns are virtually universal from the famous Polynesians which the word "tattoo" comes from, to the Igorot of the Philippines, to the Naga of Nagaland, and the Taiwan Aborigianls, and Various tribes of Indonesia. etc.

10) Boatbuilding is espeically symbolic to the Malay Ethnicity's Native Austronesian Culture. Communities in the Philippines are called "Barangay" which also means a "large boat" that carried whole families as they voyaged to settle new islands. Also Houses are made to resemble boats such as the Torajan houses of the Toraja tribe of Indonesia whose rooftops of the tongkonan (house) rise at both ends like the bow and stern of a boat; ritual chants compare these dwellings to the vessels that carried their ancestors to the highland of South Sulawesi.

11) Stories of seafaring tradition; origins such as what i listed in #10 and what i mentioned about the naga.

12) Ancient Megathlithics, working stone to make momuments such as the Mata statues of Easter island, or the various megathlics scattered across the philippines and indonesia such as those of Napu valley..

13) ANCESTOR WORSHIP

14) EXAMPLE OF HANDICRAFTS OF THE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE/SIMILAR WEAPONS SPEAR DESIGN, SHIELD DESIGN/ MOTIFS ON THE SHIELD ETC

a) Naga Pipe of Nagaland (the area straddling the Indian/Myanmar Border)

http://www.tribalmania.com/NAGAPIPE.htm

b) Igorot Pipe of the Philippines

http://www.tribalmania.com/BONTOCPIPEBOWL.htm

I find it offensive for you to say my Austronesian culture is "pre-civilized." It is very ironic that you would consider an Ethnicity which was able to transverse 2 vast oceans, the INdian and Pacific Oceans, in a time long before most Civilizations such as what is present Day INdia Japan, korea, and all of Southeast Asia, was even in its making. It is ironic to call an Ethnicity's Native Culture "pre-civlized" when the Ethnicity was also able to presevre their Native Austronesian culture and Native Austronesian language no matter what island that Malay settled from Madgascar to Easter Island. a distance of 2/3 the earth's circumfrience. Lastly, it is incorrect to say the Malay was precivilzed. Because we have our own Native AUSTRONESIAN KINGDOMS and building structures which we coneived through our own ENGINUIETY without the need of Indian influence. In fact as i stated WE influenced early indians. So we influenced India long before India was "india" and long before the Indian prince came to southeast asia and co-founded Funan. So why wouldnt the Malay be the Naga of Southeast Asia & the co-founders of Funan Kingdom?

Not to mention The Malays also learned foreign influenced kingdoms such as the Kingdom of Champa (the 2nd earliest kingdom of Southeast Asia) SriVijaya (the longest reigning kingdom of the world whose kingdom was 640 year in power, longer than the Biritsh empire, Tang Dynasty of China etc.

The Duration of Great Empires
China's T'ang Dynasty 618 AD to 907 AD 289 years
The British Empire Captured Madras in 1639
Disolved in 1949 300 years
China's Han Dynasty 206 BC to 220 AD 426 years
Rome Began acquiring territory outside Italyin 146 BC, at the end of the Punic Wars
Fell in 476 AD 541 years
The Angkor-Khmer Empire Founded in 889 AD
Angkor Abandoned in 1434 AD 545 years
The Ottoman Empire Founded in 1326 AD
Ended in WWI 592 years
Sri Vijaya Founded about 650 AD
Defeated by the Javanese in 1290 AD 640 years

The Malay also had Sailendra Dynasty a buddhist kingdom which constructed the Borobudur Temple in Java 300 years before Angkor wat and 200 years befoe Notre Dame..

Sanjaya Dynasty, a hindu kingdom also constructed Hindu Prambanan temple COMPLEX which was also constructed in java.

And there were many other Indianized Malay kingdoms.

But i suppose you equate "Civilzation" only if it is foreign influenced, which doesn't say much for self enginuiety, now does it? But the Malay also had our own Native Austronesian civilziations and buildings:

1) is the Banaue Rice Terraces of the Philippines which is the construction of rice pyramids out of a whole Mountain Range some 3000-4000 years ago and if each terrace was placed side by side, they would cover the whole Earth and certainly surpass the distance of the great wall of china.

2) is the Kingdom of Imerina of madgascar, A native Austronesian Kingdom which unified the whole island of madgascar in the Indian ocean some 6,000 Nautical miles away from these seafaring Malay's original homeland of Borneo and Sulu in the Malay Archipelago. Also the Malay is said to be the first to Aborigianly settle and civilize this island which is only 600 nautical miles away from the African Continenet.

3) are the Many Native Austronesian kingdoms of the South Pacific. The Malay began to settle all these islands around 5000 BC and some kingdoms would be the Matriarhical Kingdom of Hawaii, and the Kingdom of Tonga...

Again, i find it very humourous how you as a khmer can try to write my Malay Ethnicity and our Native AUstronesian culture as "pre-civilized" when we are the only ones of Southeast Asia who civilzed our own selves, whereas it took Foreign migrants from India to help the Khmer become "civilized." 2ndly the Kingdom of Champa was an Ethnic Malay Kingdom. And it was present around the same time Funan was founded, and Champa is not ambogiously Malay. We all know for a fact who was the Ethnic Rulers of Champa, unlike the Kingdom of Funan whose people are ambigous, and possibly Malay since i am able to present all this evidence to you.




I don't believe anyone on here is speaking from definate "proof" on this specific subject because the few records of the Naga of southeast asia is your khmer legend. BUT I do not think you can deny the strong simliarites between the Naga of Nagaland and the Naga of Southeast Asia as recounted in the Khmer legend. Obviously the Naga of Southeast Asia wheter they are fabricated legend or true can not be said to have originate with the khmer. Because one, the Harappan civlization and their Naga cult existed long before Funan and 2 CHampa also have a legend of the Naga, a queen snake sent from heaven who united the Cham tribes to form Champa kingdom. So in any case Naga is from India. and the 2 main posibilities of how Naga got to be in Southeast asia is either they were purely mythical introduced by the Indian during the time of Funan establishment (if this is the case, why make it so complicated, why have a middleman between the Founding of Funan, why have the Indian and the "Naga" birth Funan and the Khmer just recounting it? And what about the Negritos and the Malay who were present at the time Funan was created, how come they are not mentioned if they are not "nagas"?) And the other posiblity is that the inhabitants were really there and they were already called Naga, and if that is so then they had to had pre existing dravidian dealings and the only people who had pre existing dravidan dealings were the Austronesian malay who had explored the Indian Subcontinent as i have proven to you earlier.



I'm not "Malaysian Malay," I'm "Filipino Malay."

HTTP://MEMBERS.ASIANAVENUE.COM/PNOI_LYK_HOI

------

i think its very ridicolous how you got so defensive over all this. In all actuality, i dont truly care to claim funan as a Malay kingdom because my MAIN CONERN lies with the Naga depicted in the Khmer legend, but it so happens that the Naga are said to be the ones who created Funan with the help of theHindu. In anycase Funan is a Hindu civilization and i am more interested in the Native Austronesian civilization. I don't deny that Funan is part of Khmer history, but i would like you to acknowledge that Funan was also part of Malay history.

Again, I don't care much for hindu culture because it is ultimately foreign right along with islam, and christianity, but NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE OF THE MALAY is what i desire to concentrate on. So again, if you wish to say Funan is Khmer, you are by no means incorrect because Chenla, Khmer's first true kingdom adopted Funan and its ways.

Naga and their Native Naga kingdom is ambigously khmer. Certainly the information i presented suggests that these people and their tribal naga kingdom was Malay.

2ndly what is your purpose for tryin to be so ETHNOCENTRIC and saying Funan is Khmer and KHMER ALONE ? what is wrong with the Malay ethnicity having a part in the Funan Kingdom? Do you desire to have a nationalistic menality like China, who has historically used their self-imposed ego to inflict much pain on other ehtniciites of Asia because they grew to errorrsly think they are "superior" to everyone else?

And why are khmers trying to say they are Asian "indian" rather than Asian Mongoliod just because Hindu greatly influenced your culture? why do i always hear khmers say "im not Asian" im "Indian" when Indians are DRAVIDIANS (BLACK FOLKS RELATED TO NEGRITOS) MIXED WITH ARYANS (WHITE INVADERS)? People who are ethnically different from Khmers who are said to be Mon-Khmer stock who came out of southern china just like the rest of the Mongiolods.

Even Malay originated in Southern China. it seems like khmer are trying to segregate themselves or think they are somehow better/different than the rest of us asian mongioloids. You Mon-khmer are the same victim of chinese expansion. you were just ahead of the Lao, Thai, and vietnamese. but the negirto and the Malay was ahead of you. We are all victim of Chinese kicking us out of China.

LASTLY, i really have no quams about statements that Khmer royalty mixed withthe Malay Srivijaya, Sailendra, Sanjaya royalty because that is great and wonderful. I SEE NOTHING WRONG with acknowleging the interactions of 2 different ethnciites be they for the purposes of politics, economic, social peace reasons, or just plain love.. SO why can't you khmer embrace the posiblities of Funan having a diversifed history not soley Khmer, not soley Hindu? If Negrito and Malay were present before khmer and we 3 were all there in southeast asia when Funan established, who could say there was no dealings with all 3 in the Kingdom, and only Khmer and Indian?

We need to stop thinking we are better than one another. We are all people of Southeast Asia and our history is shared because our ancestors happily fu-k each other and live near each other and associate with each other. But it was only until ppl begin to think they are better and put up borders, or break away from Funan and displace the non-khmer inhabitants that people begin to be enemies... people start wars over egostical mentalities and trying to seperate themselves or think they are somehow different. it only spurs animosity and uneasiness. By saying Funan was Malay, i merely throw the possiblity that Malay and Khmer were once family at some distant time. This is all to establish "brotherhood." and learn about Naga, both the Naga of Nagaland and the Naga of Southeast Asia who were depicted in the Khmer legend. PEACE BYE. =)

It is possible that Funan could be a Malay, Negritoes, Indian or Khmer Kingdom, let’s not reject those possibilities. Or maybe a mixture of them all. But you are trying to connect the Malay and Funan, I have never heard anyone claim this before therefore I am questioning you, in a debate we ask questions and answer them and so one. It would make more sense if Funan was an Indian Kingdom, cause after all, it was settled by Indian merchants. I believe the language spoken in Funan was sanskirt. Do you know the language spoken there if it is not Sanskirt or Khmer? Also like I mentioned before, Funan was known for its irrigation and drainage system. Angkor to possessed the profound knowledge of irrigation and drainage system evidence in the gigantesque Baray that wee see in Angkor city, do the Malays possess knowledge of irrigation and drainage like Funan and Khmer’s Angkor? If so, were are evidence of it?




If it is not known what the Khmers were like before Indian influence, then why does it leave out the possibility that the Khmers themselves were the Nagas people? In its pure definition, the word "Naga" means: purity, authenticity, majesty etc. Also, do you know how the Khmer got the name Kamboji? After all, the legend of Brahmin Kaudinya and Naga Soma mentioned that after Kaudinya defeated Naga Soma and married her, he named the country Kamboji.

http://www.theangkorguide.com/cgi-bin/Mast...e/chapter_1.htm

Kaudinya could possibly be an Indian from the Kamboja and Kambuja tribe which is an ancient well known Indian/Iranian ruling tribe located in Pamir/Badakshan (north Afgfhanistan, Tajikstan & north of Kashmir]. Do you think he named the country after this tribe?



Sorry, I called your civilization “PRE-CIVILIZED”. According to western standards, even the Barbarian Huns and Mongols were “Pre-Civiled” or “Uncivilized”. Although they had great accomplishments.



Actually, the Kamboji Civilization although influenced by India, is unique in its own. The indigenous culture was combined with Indian influence to create what is Khmer Culture today. If you look at India’s civilization and Khmer, they are alike, but are also very different.



I am open to the possibilities that Malays, Negritos, Indians and Khmers all lived side-by-side in Funan. Are you open to the fact that Funan was possibly a Khmer Kingdom and that Khmer as well also lived in Funan?



Please tell me where you are getting this general stereotype of Khmers wanting to be known as “Asian Indian” from? It dosen’t seem to me any Khmers if any at all, are going through an identity crisis. They know who they are and what right do you have to tell them what they are supposed to identify themselves with? Do you want me to tell you that you Filipinos are different from the Malaysians and Indonesians and the Chams? Of course not, because Malay Kingdoms are not located in the Phillipines, which would take away your claims to ancient Kingdoms and History.



Whatever your intention is of this topic, it dosen’t seem as if you want to establish “BrotherHood”, but rather it seems to me that you want to take sole credits as the founder of Funan and indirectly responsible for the Khmer culture, although it was during the Angkor Era that Khmer arts and culture started to flourished and made uniquely Khmer when combined with Indian influenced and indigenous culture. If you do want to establish brotherhood with the Khmers, I don’t see anything wrong with it.



If you think me debating with you on the subject of Funan is ridiculous, then why did you even post this up if you did’nt expect a debate and a defensive stance? Do you expect everyone to just take your writings as facts without questions? If yes, maybe you can tell the readers why we should, basicly, what are your credentials Mr. Scholar? Who are you really?

Menikani,

I am interested in knowing why racial purity is such a big issue in the Khmer community. It's insulting to suggest to a Khmer person that he has mixed heritage.

Cambodia was once home to many ethnic Chams, Viets, Malays, Chinese (mostly Teochow and Hokkien) and French. We are all migrants at one point or another so it's only natural that our blood are all mixed.

Malay_ako,

I think you made a very compelling argument concerning the migration of Malay people throughout the Pacific Basin and the Indian Ocean.

Malay civilization is very well documented by human fossils, language research projects and more recently DNA traces.

Hello, Malay ako,

So you are a "Fillipian Malay"? What I have to say now will certainly be very controversail later; however while I wait to be disproved with factual evidence, I think Funan was Khmer then and is still Khmer now. The generouos compassionate Khmer has always allowed different ethnic groups to settle on their territories. The European writers inocrrectly call the Khmer territories as "Khmer Empire", but that is an error as the land has always been belonged to and inhabited by the Khmer people. If you claim is correct, then we would find find the "Malay and Negrito" physical features among the Khmer population already. If "Funan" had existed 600 years before the Khmer took control of it, then how come it was known in Chinese as "Funan" which is a transliterration of the Khmer word "Phnom". Some scholars also claim that the Khmer language is a cousin of the Vietnamese language. However, I think that is a mistake because Khmer and their language have always been unique since the ancient time immemorial. When we look back, it is unfortunate for the Khmer that the different ethnic minority people on their territories took advantage of the Khmer people. The Thais created their present country out of Khmer land. The Vietnamese immigrants carved out large Khmer land for themselves. The Laotians also took Khmer land to make their country. The Chams took over Khmer fishing industry. The Chinese took over Khmer trading industry. The Malays, the negritores, and other ethnic groups also found ways to weaken the Khmer. I will hang on to my claim until I am proven wrong.

If I know not what I am saying please forgive
JoksterOfTheDay

just because malays still worship the naga snake cult does not mean that they were descendants of the funanese. khmers were once hindus too and it was the main religion even before the major angkor kingdom was built.

you also mentioned that khmers,thais,laos,and viets came down to SEAsia due to the chinese expansion to the south, i do not believe khmers originally came from china. our physical appearance is nothing similar to thais,laos,and vietnamese who are light skinned people and have slanted eyes.

i really don't know in fact no one knows for sure if funanese were khmer ancestors because there hasn't been any concrete evidence to suggest that. chenla kingdom on the other hand is a khmer kingdom and there's proofs. khmer inscriptions dating from 611 c.e. is proof of that.

the thai's and laos do resemble us in some ways.

Yes, the Cordillera Rice Terraces of the Philippines used complex irrigation and drainage system to construct mountain pyramids of rice terraces of the whole Cordillera Mountain range of the Philippine island of Luzon. Not just one mountain alone but a whole range and this was consturcted some 3,000 to 4,000 years ago by the Malays of the Philippines long before Angkor wat.

Look at these pictures of the Famous Rice Terrace Pyramid of the Philippines:

http://worldwall.com/papers/800x600/batad.jpg

http://www.aenet.org/ifugao/batada2.jpg

http://www2.sfu.ca/fuga/images/jpegs/fuga28.jpg

http://www2.sfu.ca/fuga/images/jpegs/fuga01.jpg

http://www.reigrut.net/us/travel/philippin...ue/PB230039.jpg

http://www.reigrut.net/us/travel/philippin...ue/PB240079.jpg

http://www.turismo-organisation.com/Terasses9.jpg

http://www.erich-wilhelm.de/template/phili...8_800breit_.jpg

http://www.travelphil.com/fotos/pics/luz1_reis.jpg

http://www.vancouverpcg.net/GalleyAlbum/im.../Banaue_jpg.jpg

http://karamatsu.shinshu-u.ac.jp/lab/hagiw...image/batad.jpg

http://www.erich-wilhelm.de/template/phili..._46_0340_18.jpg

http://www.pahof.de/mediac/400_0/media/DIR...-P-rt-Batad.jpg

http://home.freiepresse.de/uwdel/philbatad.JPG

http://aegis.ateneo.net/fted/photos/photo02.htm




Because Naga is not native to Southeast Asia. Naga which means "snake/serpant" originated in the Indian Subcontinent. It is the custom of the Dravidian people of the Indian subcontinent and thier Harappan civilization which was BEFORE Aryans invaded the Indian subcontinet and made the people and the culture what we know today as "indian."

Also the pressence of the Naga of Nagaland allude to at least a relationship with the Naga mentioned in the Khmer Legend..

"There are several views expressed by scholars regarding the origin of the word Naga (for the Naga of Nagaland.) Some believe that the word Naga has evolved from the Sanskrit word Nagna which means naked. It is so because the Nagas are proverbially known by the paucity of their clothes. Another view is that the word Naga originated from Naga meaning Snake or king of snakes. Mythlogically, princess Ulupi was a Naga Kanya, that is daughter of the king of snakes. Ulupi’s residence is generally identified in the south-west of Nagaland. Since this area was under the Naga raj, the people are known as Naga."

Seems reminescent of the khmer legend of Soma somewhat.



Exactly. Westerners, white people are destoryers who disunified the Southeast Asian espeically the Malay ethnicity and split our islands into 3 sections "Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines" But we are all ethnically Malays, those terms "indonesia, malaysia, and philippines are merely Nationalistic idenities not ETHNIC identiites.



i am open to the fact that Chenla is the Khmer ethnicity's first true Kingdom, a kingdom belonging exlusively to the khmers. We would not be catering to the idea that Funan was multi-ethnic if we also gave Khmer the title as sole ruler of Funan also. IT is too early in history when the region was multiethnic and too little in evidence for one to say khmer deserves sole credit for it. There is no definite proof as of yet to proclaim that FUnan was definitely Khmer. And i have even given you very purseastive evidence to hint that Funan had Malay influence at the least, if it was not a Malay kingdom.




1) Before the 16th century there were no such countries as “Indonesia” “Malaysia” or the “Philippines”

2) Before the 16th century, there was only the MALAY ETHNICITY AND THE MALAY ARCHIPELAGO & MALAY PENINSULA. THE MALAY WAS SAILING FROM ONE ISLAND TO THE OTHER.

3) These Countries: “Indonesia” “Malaysia” and the “Philippines” were created by white colonizers after the 16th century. They split up the MALAY ARCHIPELAGO & MALAY PENINSULA into 3 territories: the Peninsula of the Malay Ethnicity eventually became the country Malaysia and the people of that region became known as "malaysians". Part of the MALAY Archipelago eventually became the country Indonesia and the people of that region became known as "indonesians"; and the top section of the Malay Archipelago eventually became the country the Philippines and the people of that region became known as "Filipinos."

4) But in reality we are: Indonesian Malays, Malaysian Malays, and Filipino Malays.

The Malay Ethnicity originally practiced ONE Native Austronesian Culture and Language. On the island of Indonesia there are about 250 languages spoken. But they are all classified under the Austronesian Language Family.

In the Country of the Philippines there are about 87 languages spoken but they too are all classified under the Austronesian Language Family.

In the Country of Malaysia there are about 39 languages spoken but all are classified under the Austronesian Language Family.

In order for the people to understand each other, each country designated a “NATIONAL LANGUAGE” Indonesia & Malaysia choose 1 language that is mutually intelligible, meaning that they can understand one another. The National Language of Malaysia and Indonesia is the same language only different accents (like American English and Australian English.) 80% of the words are Cognates. Indonesia re-named the language “Bahasa Indonesia” and Malaysia re-named the language “Bahasa Malaysia.” “Bahasa” means “language.”

In the Philippines the Malays designated Tagalog as the National Language. Tagalog is closely related to Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia as it is also closely related to all other languages of the Malay Peninsula and Malay Archipelago and elsewhere that the Malay Ethnicity settled in the world, this includes all the islands from Madagascar to Easter Island.

In Ancient times befores the advent of all foreign inlfuences, Hindu, Buddhist, Eureopean.. while Cambodians were walking around in one region of the world, the Malay Ethnicity was sea-faring to other islands on Boats all over the world. The Cambodian Ethnicity`s history is based on a sedentary settled lifestyle whereas the Malay Ethnicity`s history is based on sea-faring and distributing our Native Austronesian Culture and Language all over the world. The Cambodian Ethnicity and the Malay Ethnicity have different lifestyles and are NOT comparable. You can not look at the Malay Ethnicity, Malay history, and Malay culture (which is called Austronesian) through Cambodian Eyes and standards and visa versa.

Lastly, On the Eastern Branch of the Austronesian history, the Polynesian people, (MALAYS+PAPUANS) recognize that they come from other islands and acknowledge their brotherhood with one another. That is why they recognize the imaginary “POLYNESIAN TRIANGLE” that groups them together: The 3 sides of the Polynesian triangle are New Zealand, Easter Island, and Hawaii. Now each islander within this triangle speaks a different Austronesian language, and yet all the languages are related and classified under the Eastern Branch of the Austronesian Language Family. The Polynesian’s SAME reverence to the Native Austronesian culture is what bonds them and allows them to see brotherhood.

So why can’t the Malay who belongs to the Western Branch of the Austronesian history, also see brotherhood just like the Polynesian? Except our triangle is from Madagascar, to Taiwan, and Micronesia. Only foreign influences segregate us. Foreign white colonizers broke up the islands into their own territories, and when the people of these territories gained their independence, the people chose to retain the identities of their white slavemasters: the Malays of the islands called Indonesia chose to call themselves Indonesians. the Malays of the islands called the Philippines chose to call themselves Filipinos. The Malays of the Penninsula called Malaysia chose to call themselves Malaysians.

But in Ancient Southeast Asian history, there was no such countries as Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines. There was only the Malay Archipelago & the Malay Peninsula and the Malay was sailing from one island to the other as brothers.

Do you support the white man who came to our region of southeast asia and broke up the people? Do you like the white man? White people are the true enemy, not a fellow Southeast Asian.

If you get anything from my Malay claims to Funan, you should feel brotherhood with the Malay and not animosity. Because if Funan is indeed a Malay kingdom then that would show brotherhood between the Khmer. And ultimately Southeast Asia needs to be kind to one another because too many people outside Southeast Asia are trying to put us down and it really doesn’t help us in the end if we can’t even get along amongst ourselves?



Aagain, i dont really care much for Funan because it is Foregin hindu civilzation and i am interetest more on the Native Austronesain culture of the Malay Ethnicity the Naga depicted in the Khmer legend is what i am more interested in. And it so happens taht the Naga were said to be the co-founders of Funan. I dont care to claim funan, because Khmer conquered it so it is yours because you adopted Funan's ways and continue to honor them. But Naga is not necessarly khmer's. because the Naga were native Austronesian and their culture is not honored by the khmers.



I'm not here to destory Khmer History. Im just expanding the preception of it and opening yoru eyes to the fact that it was not soley khmer.. I dont understand why people think they are "pure" or that no one could influence their early history.

malay ako,

khmers are not denying that their civilzation came into existance because of foreign influence. none of the information i've read on khmer history had EVER mentioned malay influence on the khmers. indians YES but NOT malays. malays had their own kingdoms such as java kingdom and champa kingdom. and GOOD FOR YOU that the malays were sea faring people who were involved in trading goods and so forth, so was everybody else. khmers and chams often trade with one another also. and i believe khmers got their cultural influence from india NOT malays. malays, like the khmers were influenced by indian traders who sailed to MAINLAND SEAsia and would return to their homeland every 6 months or so when the direction of the winds change.

also, where's the proof that khmers migrated from souther china? i strongly disagree on that. because ethnically and linguistically we are totally different from the thais,laos and with the exception of the vietnamese whose language is related to ours.

as i read more and more of the information you put up, you're getting to the technicalities now.. okay let's just say africans built the egyptian pyramids,great wall of china,angkor wat, the aztec pyramids and so forth BECAUSE AFTER ALL, THE HUMAN RACE ORIGINATED IN AFRICA AND THEY STARTED BRANCHING OUT BY MEANS OF BOATS AND WHAT NOT. YOU'RE GETTING TO THE TECHNICALITIES, I HOPE YOU'RE NOT MAD TO KNOW THAT MALAYS AREN'T THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE, BUT AFRICANS WERE. WE ALL ARE AFRICANS IF YOU TRACE YOUR ANCESTRY BACK 12389034102389 YEARS AGO. GOOD FOR YOU THAT THE MALAYS SETTLED IN CHINA,JAPAN,TAIWAN,SEASIA WAY BEFORE THE CURRENT INHABITANTS. THAT'S EVOLUTION FOR YOU. GET OVER IT.. IT'S IRONICE HOW YOU ACCUSED KHMERS AS BEING SUPERIOR THAN OTHERS BUT FROM YOUR POSTS, YOU MAKE IT SEEM AS IF MALAY WAS THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD AND THEY WERE ON THIS LAND WAY BEFORE ANY ONE ELSE. GET OVER IT!!

i dont think you've read khmer history because Javanese invaders took over Water Chenla, and members of Chenla court were taken to Java. Jayavarman II who was being held in Java at the Malay Shailendra court would later return to cambodia and become the forefather of Angkor. He was inspired by the hindu culture of the Sailendra Dynasty of Java, Indonesia. Jayavarman II came to the throne in the ninth century and would liberate Cambodia from Javanese vassalage.

He emulated the Malay Shailendra`s pattern of magnificent dynastic power, supported by a strong religious cult expressed through the resources of art meaning he adopted the tradition of God-king he lerned when he was raised in Java.

He claim himself the title of "Mountain King" that he copied from the Sailendra title; Sailendra means "Lords of the Mountain"

Sailendra dynasty claimed to be direct descendants of Funan royalty and that is why they called themselves "Lords of the mountain," to copy their Funan ancestors title "king of the Mountain"

Khmers also learned from the Hindu Archietcture of the Champa.

See how the Malay Ethnicity & Khmer Ethnciity are so invovled in each other history?

http://www.cambodia-travel.com/khmer/birth.htm

DUDE, THAT'S INDIAN INFLUENCE NOT MALAY...LIKE I SAID KHMERS AND MALAYS WERE BOTH INFLUENCED BY INDIA. WHERE WAS THE HINDU RELIGION ORIGINATED FROM? AND JAVA KINGDOM WAS NOT HINDU BUT BUDDHIST. BOROBUDUR IS THE LARGEST BUDDHIST TEMPLE IN THE WORLD. ANGKOR WAT IS A HINDU TEMPLE BIG DIFFERENCE THERE.


where is proof of that?khmer architecture is distinctive to cham architecture. are you implying that the architect you see in cambodia are not khmer?

here's a tiny info of how chams were influence by khmer architecture..

The influence of the Khmer occupation is reflected in the Cham art and architecture of this period in Binh Dinh. The Cham began to build three towers in a single axis, with the two flanking towers slightly smaller than the larger central tower. The Cham also utilised distinctive Khmer decorative motifs. The Chams, however, continued to use their own traditional building materials and techniques. They built towers of brick without mortar.The Cham evidently had an expert knowledge of, and access to, tree resins from the highland forests. They used this vegetable glue to fix the bricks together permanently, as we can see in the many Cham towers in present-day Binh Dinh and Qui Nhon

ok, now YOUR being Technical.. Cambodia Angkor learned their hinduism via Javanese Sailendra's hinduism.

Sailendra dynasty reached its zenith in Indonesia during the 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries. Their king was considered the founder of Borobudur; he bore the name Indra (Hindu god represented on an elephant - god of rain, monsoons, storms and winds). The fact that the founder of this most fabulous Buddhist shrine bore a Hindu name shows the ambiguity of the Sailendra dynasty's position between Buddhism and Hinduism... At the same time, they opened their minds to Buddhist doctrines, effecting a sort of unofficial conversion,

http://www.bergerfoundation.ch/Borobudur/E/fondateurs.html

Cambodia used to be hinudism and today you are buddhism. peopel change and so did Sailendra Some people mix it up too. your such a hater. im sorry but your not "pure."

which civilization was more advanced though? i think you are here to show us khmers that "your people" the malays are superior than khmers. khmer people were civilized but they also learn ways of indian culture/society and they blend it in to make it uniquely theirs. there are khmers in the countryside still today that practice religious cults since ancient times.

anyways, enough with this already. i and i hope others know what message you're trying to send malay_ako. im not hating im just defending

Great! im glad you see that khmer influenced Cham. So why can't CHam influence Khmer also? Here's your proof angkorwat19 that Champa & even Java influenced Khmer civilization in architcture:

"Kulen Style (802-875)

The Kulen style is a transitional style which commenced in the Pre-Angkorian period and concluded in the Angkorian period. Architecture: Brick sanctuaries with stucco are found at some locations. Most sanctuaries are isolated. Appearance of the "mountain-temple". The architecture and some elements of decoration show influence from Champa (Temple of Damrei Krap) and from Java."

http://www.autoriteapsara.org/eng-3-4-art/1-styles2.htm

you guys are sicK! you guys are so ethnocentric its not even funny. what is so wrong with Khmers being influenced by other ethnciities? What are you getting out of trying to argue that your "pure"? Seriously, tell me what is so bad about recognizing how Malay & khmer influence oen another? Do you feel less of a man/woman or what?This type of Introspective mentality is what brought on the KHMER ROUGE. because of ethnocentric philiosphies. no body likes a stuck up snob who thinks they're superior just because of their Ethnicity.

All i've been doing was presenting the Cultural relationshp with Malay & Khmer Ethnicity. But you guys are so ETHNOCENTRIC! And Angkorwa19 is a funny one. He will recognize when Khmer influences other Ethnicites, but he wont recognize when other Ethnicities influence khmer...

He says Khmer architicture is distinct from Cham Archtiecture even though tey are both derived from Hindu And yet he says Javanese Hinduism and Cambodian hinusim is the same when i try to show the relationship of the Javanaese hinduism influenceing the Cambodian hindu Angkor period.

Get over yourself! We each influence each other.

And lastly to that comment angkorwat19 made about my Malay history:

1) Malays are seafarers, that's our history, its what my ancestors did for a life.

2) Khmers wer'e agrarians ppl who are stationary in one plot of land and form strong centralized states etc.

You can not compare the lifestyles, they are different. You can not look at Malay history through Khmer eyes. because seafaring is not part of khmer history.

Malays life in Islands, Khmers live on a whole land mass on a continent.

I think you people would be more accepting of the idea of Malay unity if instead of islands we were one huge landmass in the ocean. Beucase we sure remained culturally, ethincally, and lingustically unified. we have 1 native austronesain culture, 1 native austronesian tongue, and we are 1 ethnicity called "Malay." We have the ability to unify if we desired because we have so much in common because in fact we are the same people, but we jsut sailed to different islands next to us.

You can not compare Malay seafaring with the evolution of man. I know all man originateds in africa. But when people left africa they change in appearance, and they change cultures and they change languages that became unrelated with one another. When the Malay sailed out of Taiwan 6,000 years ago, they did not change appearance, only those who mixed changed, they did not change cultures, every Malay islander in the pacific and indian ocean still practices native Austroneian culture only soom have mixed with foreign influences, and the Malay did not change languages, We are still all under the Austroenain langauge Family. ALL THESE THINGS PROOVE WE ARE RELATED>Its funny, how you all keep saying "Where's yoru proof, Malay_ako, whuer ur proof" and i keep handing it to you on silver platter. but instead of saying wow, thats cool, you try to argue some more how we malays & khmer have nothing to do with each other and that we didnt influence each other. its pathetic. why didnt the khmer just fly to the moon if they want to be so pure and no one can influence you and whatever you make on the crater is all yours. Funan is multi ethnic kingdom.

this is my last post on this topic...

malay_ako,
i respect the dedication and effort you put into studying about your roots and the origins of the malays. it's pretty interesting...but it's starting to sound ridiculous how you group the filipino malays,indonesian malays,cham malays, and malaysian malays together. it's like grouping the chinese,koreans,and japanese together. the japanese or koreans can't say they were part of the great chinese civilization because the fact is they weren't. who built the great wall of china? the chinese, not the japanese or koreans. yes, the japanese,koreans and chinese are of mongoloid origin but they all have built their own culture and civlization. do you hear any japanese or koreans complaining about the chinese taking all the credit for the great wall of china? the malays of the INDONESIAN ISLANDS and the malays of ANCIENT CHAMPA were the ones RESPONSIBLE for the KINGDOMS OF CHAMPA AND JAVA. malays occupying the philippine islands had NOTHING to do with those kingdoms and helping creating those civilizations. you're getting too technical with this and it sounds really pathetic. could you say anything about what the malays in the philippine islands? what did they accomplish in ancient times? the chams, indonesians, malaysians, and filipinos all have totally different cultures now and different religions. are the majority of filipinos islam? NO, they're christians.

one last thing,
i don't know why you're creating this notion that the khmers have this sense of superiority because of what their ancestors accomplished in ancient times. just because you read stories of pol pot and other khmer rouge leaders doesn't give you the right to generalize the khmer people. most khmers, are proud of what their ancestors have accomplished and we do not go brag about it and tell people how great our ancestors were and put people down. i dont know where you got that crazy idea from.. you need to quit it and focus on the present and stop focusing on the past. KHMER PEOPLE NEVER DENIED THE FACT THAT THEIR CIVILIZATION CAME INTO EXISTANCE WITH THE HELP OF FOREIGN INFLUENCE SUCH AS THE INDIANS AND HINDU RELIGION MIGHT'VE BEEN INTRODUCED TO KHMERS VIA FROM THE MALAYS OF JAVA AND CHAMPA SECOND HANDED. SO I'M NOT TRYING TO DENY THAT POSSIBILITY EITHER. **NOTE I SAY THE MALAYS OF JAVA AND CHAMPA NOT THE PHILIPPINES BECAUSE THE MALAYS IN THAT REGION HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH KHMERS,CHAMS OR JAVANESE PEOPLE IN ANCIENT TIMES.**

Probably thought adaptation and marrying one another but I have to agree with angkorwat19 that we did not came from China. B/c if you look at majority of dark skin Khmer they do not have slanted eyes but round ones. The light ones seem to have slanted eyes, probably of interbleed with the Chinese in Urban areas. And the majority of Thai and Lao have slanted eyes, even if they are dark.

Do Sri-Vijaya or the Saliendra kingdom possess knowledge of irrigation and drainage like Funan and Khmer’s Angkor? Also please answer this question, what language do you think was spoken in Funan? Khmer or Sanskirt?



Are Khmer native to Southeast Asia?



There are many different meanings to the word “Naga”. In its pure definition, the word "Naga" means: purity, authenticity, majesty...etc.... It designs for those who perpetually seeking for the holly beautiful soul, the interior beauty. Those who are shame of sin, afraid to do evil, give up the terrestrial material/needs and searching peace and satisfaction in good way, meditation/pray.. For example the Buddha is considered as a Naga, other personage in the Buddhist story as: Prah Arahan, Anakamibokul etc.... are all Naga. Those teenagers who accept to be monks for a year or two in the age of 13-15 years to thank their parents are also called Naga. The big multiple heads snake which one the Buddha sitting on is also a Naga.




You are not even open to the fact that Funan was a Khmer Kingdom, then why the hell do you even bother debating with me? What’s the point of debating with me when you already made up your mind what the Funan Kingdom was? You cannot assume that you’re right then the debate is dead, you should not be so narrow minded to think that you are right. I believe that Funan was a Khmer/Indian kingdom although I am open to the fact that it could possibly be something else, and possibly had other ethnic within the kingdom, that is why I am debating with you. After all the articles you posted, none of them proves or showed that Funan was a Malay kingdom.



Please do not avoid my questions, again how do you know that the Naga of Nagaland are Malays? How do you know they came to Southeast Asia? How do you know that the legend, when referred to Nagas are the same Nagas in Nagaland? You are not even providing concrete evidence to support your claims, it is all “Strong Beliefs”. If the Legend is written in Khmer, do you think it actually said “NAGA” in the script?



Please… tell the readers who you are? What are your credentials?



How sure are you about Khmer’s Angkor learning Hinduisim from the Javanese? Jayavarman II was in exile to the Javanese court in about 780, the oldest Hindu Temple built by the Khmer was around the 6th century called Phnom Da. This would suggest that the Khmers did not learn Hinduism from the Javanese and that Khmer Hinduism was flourishing in Cambodia well before Jayavarman II being in Exile to Java. What do you have to say about this?



Yes we were influenced by India, but Malays? There is no evidence of it. You are comparing Malays to Khmer? That is like comparing Europe to a country. Why don’t you compare Cambodia and Myanmar to the Malays.



The Malays are also Agrarian, how would you explain settlements of Malays in the Phillipines?



Many Khmers are culturally, ethnically and linguistically unified with the Mons in Myanmar and Mon-Khmer speakers in India and elsewhere. But we are not the same. Sorry, but the Phillipinos, Chams, Malaysians, Indonesians, Pacific Islanders are not the same as well.

[quote=Menikani,Feb 26 2004, 09:07 PM] [quote] Yes, the Cordillera Rice Terraces of the Philippines used complex irrigation and drainage system to construct mountain pyramids of rice terraces of the whole Cordillera Mountain range of the Philippine island of Luzon. Not just one mountain alone but a whole range and this was consturcted some 3,000 to 4,000 years ago by the Malays of the Philippines long before Angkor wat.[/quote]

Do Sri-Vijaya or the Saliendra kingdom possess knowledge of irrigation and drainage like Funan and Khmer’s Angkor? Also please answer this question, what language do you think was spoken in Funan? Khmer or Sanskirt?

[quote] Because Naga is not native to Southeast Asia.[/quote]

Are Khmer native to Southeast Asia?

[quote] Naga which means "snake/serpant" originated in the Indian Subcontinent. It is the custom of the Dravidian people of the Indian subcontinent and thier Harappan civilization which was BEFORE Aryans invaded the Indian subcontinet and made the people and the culture what we know today as "indian."[/quote]

There are many different meanings to the word “Naga”. In its pure definition, the word "Naga" means: purity, authenticity, majesty...etc.... It designs for those who perpetually seeking for the holly beautiful soul, the interior beauty. Those who are shame of sin, afraid to do evil, give up the terrestrial material/needs and searching peace and satisfaction in good way, meditation/pray.. For example the Buddha is considered as a Naga, other personage in the Buddhist story as: Prah Arahan, Anakamibokul etc.... are all Naga. Those teenagers who accept to be monks for a year or two in the age of 13-15 years to thank their parents are also called Naga. The big multiple heads snake which one the Buddha sitting on is also a Naga.


[quote] i am open to the fact that Chenla is the Khmer ethnicity's first true Kingdom, a kingdom belonging exlusively to the khmers. We would not be catering to the idea that Funan was multi-ethnic if we also gave Khmer the title as sole ruler of Funan also. IT is too early in history when the region was multiethnic and too little in evidence for one to say khmer deserves sole credit for it. There is no definite proof as of yet to proclaim that FUnan was definitely Khmer. And i have even given you very purseastive evidence to hint that Funan had Malay influence at the least, if it was not a Malay kingdom.[/quote]

You are not even open to the fact that Funan was a Khmer Kingdom, then why the hell do you even bother debating with me? What’s the point of debating with me when you already made up your mind what the Funan Kingdom was? You cannot assume that you’re right then the debate is dead, you should not be so narrow minded to think that you are right. I believe that Funan was a Khmer/Indian kingdom although I am open to the fact that it could possibly be something else, and possibly had other ethnic within the kingdom, that is why I am debating with you. After all the articles you posted, none of them proves or showed that Funan was a Malay kingdom.

[quote] Aagain, i dont really care much for Funan because it is Foregin hindu civilzation and i am interetest more on the Native Austronesain culture of the Malay Ethnicity the Naga depicted in the Khmer legend is what i am more interested in. And it so happens taht the Naga were said to be the co-founders of Funan. I dont care to claim funan, because Khmer conquered it so it is yours because you adopted Funan's ways and continue to honor them. But Naga is not necessarly khmer's. because the Naga were native Austronesian and their culture is not honored by the khmers.[/quote]

Please do not avoid my questions, again how do you know that the Naga of Nagaland are Malays? How do you know they came to Southeast Asia? How do you know that the legend, when referred to Nagas are the same Nagas in Nagaland? You are not even providing concrete evidence to support your claims, it is all “Strong Beliefs”. If the Legend is written in Khmer, do you think it actually said “NAGA” in the script?

[quote] I'm not here to destory Khmer History. Im just expanding the preception of it and opening yoru eyes to the fact that it was not soley khmer.. I dont understand why people think they are "pure" or that no one could influence their early history.[/quote]

Please… tell the readers who you are? What are your credentials?

[quote] Cambodia Angkor learned their hinduism via Javanese Sailendra's hinduism.[/quote]

How sure are you about Khmer’s Angkor learning Hinduisim from the Javanese? Jayavarman II was in exile to the Javanese court in about 780, the oldest Hindu Temple built by the Khmer was around the 6th century called Phnom Da. This would suggest that the Khmers did not learn Hinduism from the Javanese and that Khmer Hinduism was flourishing in Cambodia well before Jayavarman II being in Exile to Java. What do you have to say about this?

[quote] you guys are sicK! you guys are so ethnocentric its not even funny. what is so wrong with Khmers being influenced by other ethnciities? What are you getting out of trying to argue that your "pure"? Seriously, tell me what is so bad about recognizing how Malay & khmer influence oen another? [/quote]

Yes we were influenced by India, but Malays? There is no evidence of it. You are comparing Malays to Khmer? That is like comparing Europe to a country. Why don’t you compare Cambodia and Myanmar to the Malays.

[quote] 1) Malays are seafarers, that's our history, its what my ancestors did for a life.

2) Khmers wer'e agrarians ppl who are stationary in one plot of land and form strong centralized states etc.[/quote]

The Malays are also Agrarian, how would you explain settlements of Malays in the Phillipines?

[quote] I think you people would be more accepting of the idea of Malay unity if instead of islands we were one huge landmass in the ocean. Beucase we sure remained culturally, ethincally, and lingustically unified. we have 1 native austronesain culture, 1 native austronesian tongue, and we are 1 ethnicity called "Malay." We have the ability to unify if we desired because we have so much in common because in fact we are the same people, but we jsut sailed to different islands next to us.[/quote]

Many Khmers are culturally, ethnically and linguistically unified with the Mons in Myanmar and Mon-Khmer speakers in India and elsewhere. But we are not the same. Sorry, but the Phillipinos, Chams, Malaysians, Indonesians, Pacific Islanders are not the same as well. [/quote]
My Ancestors were the Sri Vijayans. i am anak ang sugbuhanon of Cebu. SRI HUMABON was chieftain of my ancestral island of cebu at the time Magellan sailed his ship in to my island.

The tribes of Lapulapu of MACTAN ISLAND and Humabon of CEBU ISLAND were part of Sri Visayan Empire in the 14th century. After the Empire was defeated by the Maja Pahit Empire of ancient Sumatra and Borneo, the tribes became part of a group who fled and eventually settled in the islands of the Visayas Central Philippines. Another group of those Sri Vasayans, that included the tribes of Datu Puti and Datu Sumakwel, went out and settled in Panay Island. Lapulapu, even before his momentous meeting with Magellan, had been training his men because of his bitter rivalry with Rajah Humabon, whom he accused of having grabbed a portion of his father's land, particularly the sea area between the Mactan Island and Cebu.The feud between these two local chieftains contributed significantly to the early development of the "old" arnis (Native Martial Art.) The showdown between Lapulapu and Humabon, however, was never realized. Rather, it was in the battle of Mactan where the native martial art was put to a real test against the modern weapons of the foreign invaders. The rest is history. Rajah Lapu Lapu slaughtered the Spaniard and killed Magellan.

----
And even though the Spaniard kept coming back other Ma’i (Philippine) nation tribes continued the struggle.

MAGUINDANAO An Islamic sultanate set up by Malaccan* noblemen (from Malaysia)fleeing the Portuguese conquest of Malacca. They settled in the southern part of the island of Mindanao in the Philippines. Maguindanao is famous for its violent resistence to Spanish conquest. It was only subdued towards the end of the 19th century, just before the Spanish lost control over the islands to the United States.

SULU An archipelago in the extreme southwestern corner of the Philippines, just east of Sabah (Malaysia), the northeast corner of Borneo. The region is the home of a people outsiders call Moros, a feroce and deeply independent sea-going nation; IT WAS NEVER CONQUERED by the Spanish authorities in the Philippines.

Sulu are the rightful owners of the Sabah State of Malaysia. IT was given to us by the Sultan of Brunei (of Borneo) for Sulu aid in military dispute.

The AUSTRONESIAN ADHERING IGOROT TRIBES OF LUZON ISLAND WERE ALSO UNABLE TO BE CONQUERED BY SPANIARDS.

2ndly The Malays of Madgascar sailed from the Philippines and Borneo area. So if you think about it, without the Ancestors sailng to Madgascar, they wouldnt exist.

3rdly the Malays of the South Pacific Sailed from the Phiilippine Region. So if you think about it, without the Ancestors sailing to the Southpacific, they wouldnt even exist.

4th, there are sea tribes in the Philipppines called Bajao & Sama. They are people who never live on land and spend their whole lives on boats and only set foot on land to die. They are the most extreme type of sea-faring malay. And because these people do not live on land they spread out over the ocean. In Malaysia they are known as “Orang Laut” which means “sea people” because “orang” means Man/people in Bahasa Riau the root language of Bahasa Malaysia & Bahasa Indonesia. An example of Orang is “Orang-utang” which means Man of the Forest. which was given to that red monkey of Indonesia.

In Myanmar these people are called “MOKEN” and live near the islands of Mergui and Puket in Thailand.

So you see, even though this tribe left and are scattered over different islands in the Philippines, Indonesia, and the Indian Coast of Myanmar, theya re the SAME people who speak the Same Austronesian language and same sea-faring AUstronesian culture. and are the same ethnicity.

You can compare this to the Negrito of the Philippines and the Negrito of Malaysia where they are called Orang Asli (first people). They are the Same people. Do you know what split them up? White people. White people are the ones who carved up the Malay Archipelago. The Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia was a big mistake! because it cut up the Malay, just like how the Europeans cut up africa, without regard to Ethnic boundaries. The Malay ARchipelago should have been one entity because the people are one entity. That is why in the Philippines Moros of Southern island of Mindinao are trying to segregate from the Philippines becasuse they are musilm.

White people introduced this Christianity which seperatd the Malays.

http://www.docepares.net/EKAhistory.html

http://members.tripod.com/Taclobanon/Prespanish.htm

also Japanese are anthropologically discovered to come from Korea, BUT the Japaneese people are disgusted by the Koreans. They won’t even acknowledge it. Chinese, Korean, Japan are so nationalistic ethnocentric, belliegrent mean people to one another. The Japanese Governemnt wont even apologize for the atrocities incurred by their ethnicity during WWII.

Whereas the Malay of the Malay ARchipelago has Native Austronesian tradition of Brotherhood with people no matter what island they’re on. Its totally different mentality and lifestyle the people of East Asia and the Malay of the Malay Archipelago.

Chinese, Koreans, japanese are ISOLATIONISTS who settle in one spot and thats it, they severe ties with one another.

Malay are the TOTAL OPPOSITE. We live on islands so this encoruage us to sea-fare back and forth and contibute to each other history, plus we are raised to be friendly to one another.

Do you understand the cultural differences between East Asian and Malay Asian?

here’s another. In the Malay world, Women are treated with respect and given rights equal to man.

In East Asia women are treated as subservients. And historically oppressed and treated as property in Japan etc.


Did you know the island of Bali in Indonesia is the only Hindu Practicing island? Did you know that during the time when Islam was taking over, Javanese and Sumatran and Champa are said to have fled to Bali to seek refuge because it was the only place where they could freely continue to practice their Hindu lifestyle? So how can you write off the Immigration of Javanese, Sumatran, and Champa to Bali. I know they mixed and formed Balinese identity, but that is all it is to form a “Nationalistic” or REGIONAL idenity. They show how alll Malay are mixed with one another and in fact we are one people.

What did the Malays of the Philippines accomplish in ancient times? The Banaue Rice Terraces.

The Majority of the Filipinos are NOT Muslim, But before 16th Century when the white spaniard came and try to destory and replace everything with Christianity, they were muslim.

Sulu Region was majority muslim

Mindinao island was muslim/indigenous

the Visaya region was Hindu/indigenous

and Luzon island was Indigenous Malay and mixed with a little hindu and Muslim

Did you know the oldest written record of the Philippines is the Laguna Copper Plate found in Laguna Lake in the Northern island of Luzon in the Phiippines?

THE LAGUNA COPPERPLATE is the earliest written historical record of the Philippine islands found on the island of Luzon. Dating back to 900. C.E, it is written in indian derived KAVI script in a mixture of old Tagalog, old Malay, and old Javanese languages.

This clearly shows the interaction between Malay so the Philippines, Malays of Malaysia and Malays of Java in EARLY TIMES BEFORE THE WHITE MAN CAME AND SPLIT UP THE ISLANDS>

http://mi.aacdn.us/1MalayEthnicity/lagunacopperplate.gif

You have to remember white man are the ones who split up the islands and the Malay Ethnicity. Malays have no concept of borders, we sailed from island to island. Only when Foreign influences came did we start that.
---


Hinduism was the religion of the Philippines From the 600AD to 1500AD the Filipinos were followers of Kali the female goddess .She has a multifaceted character, known for her violence, peace, compassion, chaos, and wisdom. The language and culture became saturated with reference to their goddess. The words for happiness (‘kaligayahan’), freedom (‘kalayon’), and the family/tribe (‘kaliman’) all derived from the Kali faith. Each family or ‘kaliman’ also had its own uniquely shaped sword known as a ‘kalis’." This faith did much to complement the Malay's native Austronesian tradition of Matriarchal and homage to the female

Malays of the Philippines are a result of immigration:

1) is the Native Negrito
2) is the Proto- Malay the Igorot who constructed the banaue rice terraces
3) is the Malay who returned to the Philippines and spread the Buddhist/Hindu/Muslim culture and lifestyle they learned when they had settled in the islands outside the Philippines.

Some things they brought were:

music and instrument called the KULINTANG which is derived from the Indonesian Gamelan which is a row of boss brass gongs. In the Philippines they are traditionally played by women.

http://www.kulintang.com/kulintang.html

http://mi.aacdn.us/Nusantarian/kolintang_msu801.jpg

they also brought with them weaponry of the kris (a sword originating in the island of java in Indonesia from their Hindu culture)

http://www.oldasia.net

"In 200 B.C the Malays migrated to the Philippines, bringing a wavy bladed knife from the island of Java. The ‘Kalis’ or ‘Kris’ is the first foreign weapon to be incorporated into today’s Filipino martial arts." -

But the Malays of the Philippines forged the largest krises of all the Malay, uniquely designed to be more like a sword then a dagger. As the term also changed from Keris to Kalis.

http://mi.aacdn.us/Nusantarian/Video4.jpg

They also brought with them a Martial Art known as Kali. In the Philippines it developed to be known as Escrima..

Then later around the 16th century the Spanish Colonizers come into play:

They sailed in from the east on ships lead by the explorer Magellan who encountered the Malays of the islands and then claimed the lands under Spanish rule as he tried to convert Cebuano islanders from the island landed to Christianity.. but on the neighboring island of Mactan, a leader named Rajah Lapu Lapu refused to be converted to Christianity and refused to become a subject of Spain, so when Magellan and his men landed on Mactan, Rajah Lapu Lapu was ready with his own army wielding their Kamplin (Visayan swords) of which Lapu Lapu eventually slayed Magellan and the spaniards retreated and would not return for another 50 years..

img src="http://mi.aacdn.us/Nusantarian/battleofmactan.jpg

This marks the beginning of the SPanish Colonial period which did much to erase, replace, and repress much of not only NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE but also the adopted FOREIGN influence of HINDUISM and ISLAM. So today the inhabitants of the Philippines are a result of a very ambigious "lost" and "forgotten" mix with Hispanic culture being very prominent as it is the most recent introduction and most imposing of all cultural influences. But now we as Malays of the Philippines must retrace our roots and re-discover our Pre-hispanic roots. And maybe even Pre-Islamic roots and Pre-hindu roots and find respect for our true origins as a member of the MALAY ethnicity and a practioner of the NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE and speaker of the NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE which not only do we share with other islanders in the Philippines, but also islanders of Indonesia, Malaysia, Cham of Vietnam, Malays of Madagascar, Malay-Polynesians of the Pacific and elsewhere that our brother Malay’s Ancestors had sailed to in their simple yet efficient outrigger canoes in the most Ancient of times. We are all Brothers with one another and our aboriginal Austronesian culture and tongue is a great and honorable one. Cherish it just as much as you would your foreign adopted cultures not matter if your a Malay of the Philippines who took in Christanity or a Malay of Indonesia and Malaysia who adopted Islam, or even a Malay of Bali who adopted Hindu Culture..

malay_ako, please answer the questions I had for you, and also please post relevantly.

ok can u please write the questions again? some things i may not know, and that is why i didn't answer them before. But what i do know ill answer for sure.

[quote=malay_ako,Feb 26 2004, 11:00 PM] [quote=Menikani,Feb 26 2004, 09:45 PM] malay_ako, please answer the questions I had for you, and also please post relevantly. [/quote]
ok can u please write the questions again? some things i may not know, and that is why i didn't answer them before. But what i do know ill answer for sure. [/quote]
Sure. Here are the questions again.






-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[quote] Yes, the Cordillera Rice Terraces of the Philippines used complex irrigation and drainage system to construct mountain pyramids of rice terraces of the whole Cordillera Mountain range of the Philippine island of Luzon. Not just one mountain alone but a whole range and this was consturcted some 3,000 to 4,000 years ago by the Malays of the Philippines long before Angkor wat.[/quote]

Do Sri-Vijaya or the Saliendra kingdom possess knowledge of irrigation and drainage like Funan and Khmer’s Angkor? Also please answer this question, what language do you think was spoken in Funan? Khmer or Sanskirt?

[quote] Because Naga is not native to Southeast Asia.[/quote]

Are Khmer native to Southeast Asia?

[quote] Naga which means "snake/serpant" originated in the Indian Subcontinent. It is the custom of the Dravidian people of the Indian subcontinent and thier Harappan civilization which was BEFORE Aryans invaded the Indian subcontinet and made the people and the culture what we know today as "indian."[/quote]

There are many different meanings to the word “Naga”. In its pure definition, the word "Naga" means: purity, authenticity, majesty...etc.... It designs for those who perpetually seeking for the holly beautiful soul, the interior beauty. Those who are shame of sin, afraid to do evil, give up the terrestrial material/needs and searching peace and satisfaction in good way, meditation/pray.. For example the Buddha is considered as a Naga, other personage in the Buddhist story as: Prah Arahan, Anakamibokul etc.... are all Naga. Those teenagers who accept to be monks for a year or two in the age of 13-15 years to thank their parents are also called Naga. The big multiple heads snake which one the Buddha sitting on is also a Naga.


[quote] i am open to the fact that Chenla is the Khmer ethnicity's first true Kingdom, a kingdom belonging exlusively to the khmers. We would not be catering to the idea that Funan was multi-ethnic if we also gave Khmer the title as sole ruler of Funan also. IT is too early in history when the region was multiethnic and too little in evidence for one to say khmer deserves sole credit for it. There is no definite proof as of yet to proclaim that FUnan was definitely Khmer. And i have even given you very purseastive evidence to hint that Funan had Malay influence at the least, if it was not a Malay kingdom.[/quote]

You are not even open to the fact that Funan was a Khmer Kingdom, then why the hell do you even bother debating with me? What’s the point of debating with me when you already made up your mind what the Funan Kingdom was? You cannot assume that you’re right then the debate is dead, you should not be so narrow minded to think that you are right. I believe that Funan was a Khmer/Indian kingdom although I am open to the fact that it could possibly be something else, and possibly had other ethnic within the kingdom, that is why I am debating with you. After all the articles you posted, none of them proves or showed that Funan was a Malay kingdom.

[quote] Aagain, i dont really care much for Funan because it is Foregin hindu civilzation and i am interetest more on the Native Austronesain culture of the Malay Ethnicity the Naga depicted in the Khmer legend is what i am more interested in. And it so happens taht the Naga were said to be the co-founders of Funan. I dont care to claim funan, because Khmer conquered it so it is yours because you adopted Funan's ways and continue to honor them. But Naga is not necessarly khmer's. because the Naga were native Austronesian and their culture is not honored by the khmers.[/quote]

Please do not avoid my questions, again how do you know that the Naga of Nagaland are Malays? How do you know they came to Southeast Asia? How do you know that the legend, when referred to Nagas are the same Nagas in Nagaland? You are not even providing concrete evidence to support your claims, it is all “Strong Beliefs”. If the Legend is written in Khmer, do you think it actually said “NAGA” in the script?

[quote] I'm not here to destory Khmer History. Im just expanding the preception of it and opening yoru eyes to the fact that it was not soley khmer.. I dont understand why people think they are "pure" or that no one could influence their early history.[/quote]

Please… tell the readers who you are? What are your credentials?

[quote] Cambodia Angkor learned their hinduism via Javanese Sailendra's hinduism.[/quote]

How sure are you about Khmer’s Angkor learning Hinduisim from the Javanese? Jayavarman II was in exile to the Javanese court in about 780, the oldest Hindu Temple built by the Khmer was around the 6th century called Phnom Da. This would suggest that the Khmers did not learn Hinduism from the Javanese and that Khmer Hinduism was flourishing in Cambodia well before Jayavarman II being in Exile to Java. What do you have to say about this?

[quote] you guys are sicK! you guys are so ethnocentric its not even funny. what is so wrong with Khmers being influenced by other ethnciities? What are you getting out of trying to argue that your "pure"? Seriously, tell me what is so bad about recognizing how Malay & khmer influence oen another? [/quote]

Yes we were influenced by India, but Malays? There is no evidence of it. You are comparing Malays to Khmer? That is like comparing Europe to a country. Why don’t you compare Cambodia and Myanmar to the Malays.

[quote] 1) Malays are seafarers, that's our history, its what my ancestors did for a life.

2) Khmers wer'e agrarians ppl who are stationary in one plot of land and form strong centralized states etc.[/quote]

The Malays are also Agrarian, how would you explain settlements of Malays in the Phillipines?

[quote] I think you people would be more accepting of the idea of Malay unity if instead of islands we were one huge landmass in the ocean. Beucase we sure remained culturally, ethincally, and lingustically unified. we have 1 native austronesain culture, 1 native austronesian tongue, and we are 1 ethnicity called "Malay." We have the ability to unify if we desired because we have so much in common because in fact we are the same people, but we jsut sailed to different islands next to us.[/quote]

Many Khmers are culturally, ethnically and linguistically unified with the Mons in Myanmar and Mon-Khmer speakers in India and elsewhere. But we are not the same. Sorry, but the Phillipinos, Chams, Malaysians, Indonesians, Pacific Islanders are not the same as well.

I dont know about Sri-Vijaya & Sailendra irrigation & drainage, i haven't studied into it. i dont know what language was spoken in funan, no one does.




No, Khmers are not native to Southeast Asia. Thhe only people native to southeast asia are Negritos. Malays are not native to southeast asia but we were the 2nd people to inhabit SOutheast asia




the pure defintion for naga is Serpant and it comes from India; not khmer; not southeast asia.




a debate is when 2 or more people get together and present information to suport their different views.. if i agreed with you that would NOT be a debate. i dont think you even read those sites but maybe one or two and if that you probaly just scroll through with a narrowmind.




the culture of naga of nagaland is assocaited with the igorot of the philippines the ingdenious non=conquered tribes, also the indgneiosu malay tribes of taiwan. and the ingenious dyaks of indonesia.

the language of naga are sinotibetian because they live in a region of sino-tibetian speakers. kinda like in the philippines the negritos orignally had their own distinct language but when the malays came the negritos eventually lost their indegnious langauge and are now austronesian speakers. even through the negritosadopted an austronesian tongue the negritos of the phlippnies still remained isolated as they retreated to the mountains. this is just what happen to the naga of nagaland.

i presented the similarities between the naga snake cult of the nagas of nagaland and the naga of khmer legend.




hi. im tony im 19 m tn. filipino malay. i like to read southeast asian history and study my native austronesian culture which goes beyond the southeast asian region as my ancestors were seafaers whooailed the indian and pacific oceans and parts of the asian mainland and south american coasts. im not a professor but i read professors, anthroplogists, lingustics material and i am posting them here.




Thats true, but i am talking about ANgkor period. Angkor was made from Scratch. And Jayavarman II learned his hinduism from the Sailendra of Java. Some scholar say Jayavarman was even born on Java and was raised in Java. Jayavarman II learned from Sailendra dynasty of Java before going back to cambodia, his ancestoral land and establish angkor from scratch.




i have given you many links to sites saying malay influenced khmer. i dont compare myanmar to the malays because i havent come across much myanmar/malay history aside from the Austronesain Moken who live on the Mergui islands off myanmar and puket island of thailand. Moken are related to the Orang laut of malaysia and the Bajao/Sama of the Phlippines.

Malay & khmer is not like comparing Malay as Europe to Khmer as another country because Malays are homogenous in native austronesian culture, Malay ethnicity, and Austronesian language. Europe is full of different ethnicities and language speakers and cultural diversity.



yes malays are agrarians and seafarers. but predomienatly Seafarers. we are not all one way or all another way.




who are you to say Filipino Malays, Cham Malays, Malaysian Malays, Indonesian Malays and Polynesians (Malay+Papuan) have no right to cultivate our Ethnic, Cultural, and Lingustic simlarities? the Polynesian has already done that, that is why they call themselves the Polynesian Triangle.

We embrace our bonds between us. Khmer is centralized history. you seperate yourselfs, that is your culture and your lifesyle, that is NOT Malay Austronesian culture and lifestyle.

Don't think everyone acts and thinks the way Khmers do. We are 2 different cultures, ethnciites, and language speaekrs.

malay_ako,
answer this question: where were the malays who settled in the islands of philippine, indonesia, and malaysia when "your people" the chams were struggling to keep their land? you talked about unity, but where was it? i've also read that chams also had asylum in java after they lost all their land but i never came across that they settled in the philippines. if you ask me, the chams and javanese can relate more than other malays who weren't even close to being involve in warfare and struggling to keep their civilization alive in ancient times with the kingdom of champa and java. also, there were small groups of malayans who settled in cambodia even before chams lost all their territory and the chams and the malays from java reunited with one another. so that's why i say chams and javanese people can relate more.

you also talked about your people civilized themselves then why did filipinos adapted spanish names when you guys were colonized? almost all the cities and towns in the philippines have spanish names. tagalog is also a diversed language and filipinos borrowed so many spanish words and english words to fit their taste. how is the filipino culture now? if the malays were such strong minded people, why did they allow the spanish colonize them and enforce laws on them? i can't say that about other malays such as the chams because the chams are true warriors and they fought so many wars against their powerful neighbors. chams have always acknowledge the differences between them and the khmers.

women in cambodia were never treated as subservients. a chinese scholar who visited cambodia long ago wrote that the men treated women differently from what he has ever seen. they were treated very fairly and not as properties. men gave women a lot of respect.

yea i know you have to resort to questioning the brotherhood of the Malay Ethnicity. Ok i know my identity i am confident with the malay history of seafaring and migration. i know my history as an Austronesian speaker and Austronesian culture and a person of the Malay Ethnicity. Malays originate in taiwan and then went to the phlippines, and then they broke up into 2 groups, one sailed east to become the polynesians and the other sailed west and south to populte the indonesian islands and then malaysia and Vietnamese coast wehre they became chams. some malays continued west and hit the indian subcontient and then otheer amlay kept sailing west till they reasched madagascar. This was all done in ancient times starting 6,000 years ago. But we all retained our native austronesian culture and native austronesin language and Malay ethnicity. All these things maybe be mixed or influenced by Foregin ifnluence who civiled the malay under hindu/buddhist/islam/christain.

the phlippines is NOT totally conquerd by the SPniards. The igorot Malays of the Luzon native austronesain culture people

the Lumad Malays of mindinao native austronesain culture people

and the Moro Malays of sulu, muslim/austronesain mixed culturr people

were UNCONQUERABLE. they could not be opreseed in 300 years of spanish rule and 50 years of american imperalism.

TAGALOG IS A AUSTRONESAIN LANGUAGE WHICH INFLUENCE OF SPANISH. SPANISH MERELY INFLUENCED IT.FILIPINO MALAY DID NOT HELP CHAM MALAY BECAUSE WE ARE TOO FAR TO BE DIRECTLY CONERNED WITH THE REGION OF SOUTHEAST ASIA. JUST LIKE THE MADAGASCAR MALAY DID NOT HELP THE CHAMS BECAUSE MADAGACAR MALAY ARE 6,000 MILES AWAY FROM CHAMPA AND SO THEY WERE ISOLATED SOMEWHAT. BUT JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE ISOLATED DOESNT MEAN THEY ARE NOT RELATED.

IF YOU HAVE A GRANDMOTHER WHO LIVES IN NEW YORK SHE IS A NEW YORKER.

IF YOU HAVE AN UNCLE WHO LIVES IN TEXAS HE IS A TEXAN.

BUT ARE THEY NOT IN THE SAME FAMILY?

NEW YORKER AND TEXAN ARE JUST REGIONAL IDENTITIES... THE FAMIY IS STILL THE SAME.

THIS IS LIKE THE MALAY. CHAMPA IS JUST A NATIONAL IDENITITY BUT THEY ARE STILL ETHNICALLY MALAY.

FILIPINO IS A NATIONAL IDENITY, BUT WE ARE STILL ETHNICALLY MALAY.

how would you know exactly what our culture or our lifestyle is? from reading from books and $hit online? khmers have not seperate themselves from others. there are many different khmers... khmer leur, khmer krom, khmer-chinese, khmers, and many others. doesn't sound like khmers seperate them from others.

6,000 years is a long time... you don't think that after 6,000 years the malayans have evolved and created their own culture and built their own civilization? i don't know how you can say malays retained their native culture when it's been 6,000 years, they've moved on to start their own culture already man.

I AM TALKING ABOUT WHEN PEOPEL BECOME NATIONALISTIC THEY HAVE DEFINAITE BORDERS & IDENTITIES. THE MALAYS DID NOT HAVE BORDERS, THEY SAIL FREELY FROM ISLAND TO ISLAND AND INFLUENCE EACH OTHER BUT KEPT SIMILAR IDENTITY AS MALAYS AND AUSTRONESAIN SPEAKERS PRACTICNG AUSTRONEAIN CULTURE.

SOMETIMES PEOPLE GET ETHNOCENTRIC OR TOO NATIONALISTIC AND AS A RESULT LIKE TO THINK INTROSPECTIVELY AND THINK NO ONE OUTSIDE THE BORDER COULD EVER HAVE INFLUENCED THE PEOPLE WITHIN.

Well, The earliest written language to have been found in the region is in Sanskrit, so Sanskirt is one of the possible languages in Funan, also like I previously mentioned, the Chinese derived the word “Founan” from the Khmer word, “Phnom” or “Bnam”, so the Khmer language also had to be present in Founan. What is your take on this? Founan and Khmer Angkor and Chenla(Kambuja) had much in common with each other e.x. they are both known for their excellent irrigation and drainage system. What do the Sri-Visjaya and Saliendra had in common with Founan? Do not say Trading because all Kingdom traded with others.



If you say Khmer are not native to Southeast Asia, then why did you say, 'Because Naga is not native to Southeast Asia', when I brought up the possibility that the Khmer themselves were the nagas? Why did you say this if you believed both the Nagas of Nagaland and Khmers migrated to Founan region and are both not native to Southeast Asia land?



Other sources says otherwise:

http://amekhmer.free.fr/Site_En/culture_en/encu_naga.htm



You should atleast be open to other possibilities, not just hold on to your NARROW-MINDED VIEWS. I am open to other possibilities that is why I am here dabating you. The sources and websites you posted holds a lot of information, most of them are irrelevant to the discussion, me reading them would just be a waste of my time, maybe there is a specific paragraph or page you want me to read? Although I do go through them, I browse through them for the Quotes you pasted to make sure that it does say so.



Well, I see a lot of similarities with a lot of Native Tribes of Africa, South America, Pacific Islanders and many parts of the world to the Native Phillipines. Are they associated with each other then?



Again, were does it say Angkor started from scratch? Any particular website you want me to read? Do not post a website that just states ‘Angkor started from scratch’, I want proof behind, or an example. You just find ways to discredit Khmers, you disagree with everything I posted. So are you still holding on to your belief that Khmer’s Angkor was influenced by Java after I proved you wrong? The religion of the land didn’t change did it? How would they start from scratch, if the religion and architecture basicly, everything from the Chenla Era are still the same? Now you claim Angkor started from scratch? Heh, I agree with Angkorwat19, you are ridiculous.



Well, you’re right, it is more like comparing Aryans(Iran, Afghanistan, Germany, etc) to a single nation. Why don’t you compare Mon-Khmer(Cambodia, Myanmar, parts of Thailand, Parts of India etc) to the Malays(Phillipines, Madagascar, Indonesia etc.)?



Many people see the difference between Filipino Malays, Cham Malays, Malaysian Malays, Indonesian Malays and Polynesians (Malay+Papuan), not just me. Many people also see the difference between Chinese, Korean and Japanese. So don't get mad at me for seeing the differences and acknowledging that these nations are unique in their own ways.

Also, if it was scientifically proven that Founan was a Malay Kingdom, what do you want from it?



The Native Americans also lived without borders. Time changes and you have to change with the times. I think it's great for people to live without borders and freely roam the earth without conflicts, if the Khmers were like the Malay race just sailing the earth freely, that would be nice, cause then there would be no wars and everyone just get along.

i said East Asian countries such as Japan treat women as subsevients.. Cambodia is a Southeast Asian country. Its good to see Camboia has similar treatement as the Malay Ethnicity. There is so few in the world who respect women in society.

Aagain, i dont know the agricultural history behind Sri-Viajaya and Sailendra civilization because i have not studied that portion of their history.

But here's an example of the Philippine Igorot Malay's complex irigation and drainage system of the Cordillera Rice Terraces carved out of the whole Cordillera Mountain Range which were constructed 3,000 to 4,000 years ago:

http://worldwall.com/papers/800x600/batad.jpg

http://www2.sfu.ca/fuga/images/jpegs/fuga28.jpg

Here are the ties between Funan/Sailendra/Srivijaya/Philippines:

Sailendra royalty claimed to be direct descendant of Funan royalty who fled to java when Chenla, the khmer's first true Kingdom conquered Funan. Then Sailendra Dynasty of Java was conquered by the Hindu Sanjaya Dynasty of Java, when Rakai Pikatan, a prince of the Sanjaya dynasty, seized control of Central Java. The Sailendra fled to Srivijaya Kingdom based in palembang Sumatra where they blocked all Javanese shipping throughout the SOuth China Sea for more than a century. then SriVijaya eventually collaspe and the SriVijaya fled to the central islands of the Philippines in what is known today as the Visayan islands. When Magellan sailed to the philippines in 1521, he met with Sri Humabon Rajah king of the island of Cebu (which is the island i am from) The Rajah Humabon of Sugbo (Cebu) was the son of Shri Bantug Lamay who was the son of Shri Bataugong of the same kingdom of Sri Vijaya. "Sri" is an indian honorific title like "king" an example of this is Sri Lanka. "Rajah" is an indian title which means "King/Cheif" Rajah Lapu Lapu was the cheif of Mactan island who slayed Magellen when he landed on Mactan island which negiobrs Cebu.

http://members.tripod.com/Taclobanon/Prespanish.htm



I meant the word "Naga" is not native to Southeast Asia and is not native to the khmer ethnicity. the term Naga originated in the indian subcontient of the Dravidian people during the time of their harappan civilization they practiced Snake Cult. This is at a time before the Ayran invaders entered the Indiann subcontient and tranfoormed the peopel and culture into what we know today as "india" Aryans introduced such things as the Caste System and Patrilienial custom. The Dravidan practiced Matrilieinal custom and as i shown you, the Austronesian malay on their seafaring migration westward entered the Indian subcontient and the Dravidan and the Austronesian had interaction and cultural distriubtion, and the Dravidians recieved Matriilianl culture of the Malay's AUstronesain culture and the Malay recieved this naga/snake cult tradition of the the dravidian. which they spread as they voyaged back home to southeast asia. And The Naga of Nagaland are remanents of the dravidian/austronesain cultural mixture as it is said in:

http://members.fortunecity.com/dikigoros/themalays.htm

and many other sources.



Ok Naga tardition of the dravidan is likeca. 3000-1500 BC old. Mention of the Naga in Khmer is what? like 1 Ad when the Hindu came and co-founded Funan. Obviously Naga tradition goes far longer than in Southeast asia. Naga cult is pre-aryan. the Hindu who came to Southeast asia and co-founded funan were Indo-Aryan.




its nice to debate, but don't be ready to refute everything i say jsut for the sake of debate. i guess i am open to possiblities, i just read it wrong, i thought you said i should agree with you on things i do not or something, which doessnt make sense to me. yes their are specific paragaraphs that i am refering to, i apologize that i did not cut them out for you so you can easily find them.




You are generalizing the Native Austronesian culture of the Malay Ethnicity with those of Africa, South America which is very disrespectful. If you actually studied Austroneain culture you would discover the distinct qualities of it that make it unique from African and South American tribal cultures. Right now you are on the outside looking in but you haven't open the book and really went indepth on Austronesain culture. And Pacific islanders do share Austronesain simliaries because in fact they are Malay+Papuan peoples, they are part of the Austronesian culture. they are the most pure because they did not become influenced by hinduism, buddhism, islam, but only chrsitainity in recent times.



Angkor started from scratch because Jayavarman II came out of Sailendra Java and established Angkor from scratch with the insperiation of the hindu culture he learned while he was rasied in Java. You did not proove me wrong. This is historical literatrue that Jayavarman II was raised in Sailendra court of Java and learned Javanaese hinduism and then returned to cambodia and founded Angkor from scratch. Jayavarman II would eventually gain independence from Sailendra who was in control of much of the region at this time. Hinduism archticture of Cambodia has many different stages. Its not all the same.

Kulen Style (802-875)

Jayavaraman II unified the country and declared the Khmer kingdom secure. Mahendraparavata (present-day Phnom Kulen) and Hariharalaya (present-day Roluos) were the central cities of Jayavaraman II.

Religion: Hinduism, cult of Shiva, God-King (Cakravartin).

The Kulen style is a transitional style which commenced in the Pre-Angkorian period and concluded in the Angkorian period.

Sculpture: Becomes more formalized and less natural. The body of the statue is solid and the chest cleaved. The face is square and the weight balanced on the left leg, with the right left set slightly forward. The supporting arch is no longer necessary. The first headdresses, the symbols of royalty become characteristic of the Angkorian period.

Architecture: Brick sanctuaries with stucco are found at some locations. Most sanctuaries are isolated. Appearance of the "mountain-temple". The architecture and some elements of decoration show influence from Champa (Temple of Damrei Krap) and from Java.

Main Monuments: At Phnom Kulen (Prasat Damrei Krap, Prasat Rup Arak, Prasat Neak Ta, Aram Rong Chen).

http://www.autoriteapsara.org/eng-3-4-art/1-styles2.htm



ok that is a good analogy. let's go with that. But u must also keep in mind that Native Austronesian culture is strict on the concept of Family and extended family and communial ties & brotherhood. So it is natural that a Malay acknowledges his brotherhood with other Malay on other islands.



Yes i too acknowledge that FIlipino Malays, Cham Malays, Malaysian Malays, Indonesian Malays, and POlynesians (malay+papuan) are unique in their own ways. But the root culture, language, and ethnicity is Malay/Austronesian. Everything else is just foreign influence.

Many people see the differences, but i concentrate on the similarities. which is much respectable and honroable and ideal since there is so much infighting in the world espeically between the Muslims vs the Christians, and i don't want the Malay world to victimize themselves and kill each other just because we were forced to adopt Muslim and Christian lifestyles. I don't want to see the Musilm Malays killing the Christian Malays and vis versa when we are sharing these islands. If only we concentrate on what bonds us together and not those petty foreign influences that segregate us, we will be a much more peaceful region.

I really wouldn't like anything if it is scientifcally proven that Funan was a Malay kingdom except kindness betwen the Khmer ethnicity and Malay ethnicity and friendship. Funan is Khmer because Khmer Chenla absorbed Funan. Funan is an Indianized Kingdom, a foreign influences just like Islam and Christianity. I honor the Native Austronesian culture and history of the Malay and i am very interested in the Naga depicted in Khmer legend if they are indeed austronesian as various instances may suggest:

1) naga is said to be the original inhabitants
2) naga is not said to be the khmer themselves
3) the snake cult//matrilienal aspects
4) the evidence showing the Austronesian exploring early dravidian naga cult india
5) the pressence of the Naga of Nagaland who seem very similar to the naga depicted in khmer legend
6) the naga of nagaland's cultural similarities to the Igorot (mountain) Natives of the PHilippines/the taiwan aboriginals/ the dyaks of Borneo. all these are without a doubt shown to be related and distinct to the Native Austroneain Culture.




You only say this if it is benefitial to you. But what if time changed and cambodia was completely dismantled and absorbed between thailand and vietnam? would you say you have to change with the times. And what about as time changed and khmer krom ended up in the hands of vietnamese.. are u going to follow the philopshy of we just need to accept that and change with the time?

I know time changed to split up the Malay archieplago and Malay Penninsula into 3 seperate nations because of what the white man did. But we don't need to forget our relation with each other. We don't need to stop talking and sharing from one another just because suddenlty in the 16th century white men sail their boats to the Malay archipelago and began to cut up the islands amongst themselves.



An afrocentrist will try to claim a history as there's merely if he discovers that there were people with black skin in the region. I on the otherhand, have clearly defined boarders of my Malay Ethnicities territorial extent and migration which is from Madgascar to Easter island. I do not claim anything that is not shown to have Malay Ethnciity, Austroneain culture, or Austronesain language. I do not claim assocaition with somone's history just because they have the same tanned skin complextion as me.

2ndly as it may look to you that i am trying to claim alot of things, that is just my Malay Ethnicities history. we were sea-farers who settled many islands and regions in the Indian and Pacific Ocean. whereas most people's histories only settled in one region and became centralized. Our ancestors had different paths. and so we have didferent histories and lifestyles. Its up to you to respect a lifestyle that is different from your own and not try to look at the whole world as living the exact same way as you. Maybe the Malay Ethnicity is not compareable with cambodia. Maybe the malay ethnicity is compareable with other seafaring people, like Ponehcian or greek? But definitatly not a centralized people.

i'm gonna have fun with malay_ako . this flip guy flips flops and changes the history of his so called "malay ethnicity people". this quote he says malay originated in southern china and on another quote he said malays all originated in taiwan but i can't find that quote for some reason. he keeps acknowledging that all the malay people are the same when IN FACT THEY ARE NOT. DO YOU SEE KHMER PEOPLE CLAIMING THAT THEIR ANCESTORS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MON KINGDOM? MON AND KHMER PEOPLE ARE CLOSELY RELATED ETHNICALLY AND LINGUISTICALLY. but i agree with that guy who says this MALAY_AKO GUY IS LIKE ONE OF THOSE AFROCENTRISTS WHO TRIES TO CLAIM THAT HIS PEOPLE WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXISTANCE OF OTHER CIVILIZATIONS AHAHHAAHHAHAHAHA. MY MALAY ANCESTORS WERE SEAFARING PEOPLE AND THEY WERE ALREADY CIVILIZED BEFORE THE INDIANS,EUROPEANS,CHINESE,ETC. AHAHAHAHAH. KEEP IT UP AND YOU'LL BECOME A "FLIPCENTRIST" AHAHAHHAAH.

Here a chart that shows Khmer was the first ethich group to get influenced by Indian scripts.

Kamboliouz:

wow how do you read that map? does that mean the tagalog script of the philippines hasn't changed since it's origins around 600 bc or is that 600 ad?

And to Angkorwat19:

"The speakers of this language family are thought to have originated in southern China (the Yellow River valleys) and migrated via Taiwan into the islands of the Philippines (about 2500BC), Indonesia and out into the Pacific (about 1000BC)."


Even though The Malay Ethnicity ulitmatly orginated in China it was on Taiwan that our Austronesain culture and Language really develtoped so i don't like to go any futher than Taiwan island.

2ndly, you are not malay and you do not practice our native austronesian culture so you don't know anything about brotherhood and family as the malay sees it. if you would like to learn, go to the south pacific and learn the Polynesian (Malay+Papuan's) concept of the "POLYNESIAN TRIANGLE."

http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_malayo.html

the fu-k you talking bout? you dont know jack $hit bout me homie. i acknowledge the fact that the khmer culture was influence buy the indians. you know bout Hanuman? do you know he derived from Indian legends? do you know that i believe in this legend. no you didnt. this proves that im not ethnocentric or too nationalistic as you would say. im not even full blooded cambodian. you need to stop coming up with your own conclusions about other people. you might be smart, but youre also an idiot.

i think you misread the chart.

looks to me like its says that the tagalog language didnt get influence by indian scripts until the 1950s.

the chams,indonesians,malaysians,and polynesians are not your brothers. quit referring to this "Brotherhood" thing. you are a filipino so get that straight. you need to get in touch with reality more there buddy. just like the mons and khmers are not brothers and sisters yet we are close cousins who migrated at about the same time to mainland SEasia. do those groups i mentioned ever say that they are your brothers?it's been 6,000 years since the malays branched out, and you "claim" that the culture and language is still the same when it's been 6,000 years. i highly doubt that and that's probably just a fairy tale. were filipinos ever became hindus back then? you claimed that the white man separated the "malay ethnic people" apart, but you didn't say indians separated "malay people" apart. could you give me a link of your filipino history? i don't want the history of the origins of malay because that is irrevelant to what you are today. khmers and mons have been doing what they been doing for the past several centuries such as raising cattle, plowing, harvesting rice, traditional dances, and religion. the chams is an ethnicity, they have their own religion and culture and it's totally different than filipino's culture and religion. indonesians and malaysians make up several different ethnicities.

no thats not true lakk, because as of today 2004 we use roman lettering and so does vietnam. this is because when the spaniards came during the 1500's they eventually encourage us to write in roman lettering. But when they first arrived in the phlippien the malays of the philipipnes were already writing in our own script called "baybayin" it is dierived from indian script just like all other script of southeast asia. and our oldest writing script tablet of the philippines is the laguna copperplate which dates back to 900 CE. (1,100 years ago) The language used in the document was a strange mixture of Sanskrit, Old Javanese, Old Malay and Old Tagalog. So this shows the connection between the natives of the Philippines, natives of Indonesia, and the Natives of Malaysia. (remember at this time there was no such countries as Phlippines, Indonesia, Malasyai, thiese countries were created by white men during the 20th century AT THIS TIME THERE WAS ONLY THE MALAY ARCHIPELAGO AND MALAY PENNINSULA AND THE MALAY ETHNCIITY WAS SIALING FROM ONE ISLAND TO ANOTHER)

http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/lcieng.htm

i think the chart stops at 1950 because that was the date it was created in 1950 and they meant it as the (present date).. is that correct kamboliouz?

it's hard to believe filipinos had their alphabets sanskritized since they were never hindus or buddhists.

LOL HE GOT U MALAY_AKO

we were hinduinzed before the 16fth century with our own hindu writing script but when the spaniards came in the 16h century they converted us to christianity and told us to stop using our writing script and adopt roman lettering. When magellan (spanish exploer) came to the philippines he met with Rajah Humabon "Rajah" is ain indian name which means "Chief" Rajah Humabon was the son of SriVijaya court.

"From the 600AD to 1500AD the Filipinos were followers of Kali. The language and culture became saturated with reference to their goddess. The words for happiness (‘kaligayahan’), freedom (‘kalayon’), and the family/tribe (‘kaliman’) all derived from the Kali faith. Each family or ‘kaliman’ also had its own uniquely shaped sword known as a ‘kalis’."

KALI IS A 2,000 YEAR OLD HINDU GODDESS who was created when the Dravidan and the Malay Austronesian mixed on the indian subcontient long before Indian subcontinetn was invaded by Aryans and made India what it is today culturally and ethnically.

During Pre-Colonial times in the Philippines:

The Visayan (central islands) were HIndu; and Mindanao (southern Islands) were muslim; and Luzon (Northern island) were indignous Austronesain. cultured.

no he didnt i just prooved him wrong.

why are you khmers so hateful? why are you ready to attack me. why do you think your right and everyone else is wrong? why are you being so ethnocentric? why do you hate to be called southeast asian and rather call yourself "indian" and not mongioliod liek the rest of southeast asians? why do you hate when people show evidence that Cambodian Ethnicity were influenced by malay Ethnicity? But why are you quick to point out when Cambodians infliuecned other Ethnicities?? Why do you want to believe your "pure?" What will it accomplish to be pure? You wil only be introspective and think yoru better than everyone else in southeast asia.

it's really difficult to find information about filipino people being hindus. provide me a link please.

here's what i found about filipinos writing system:

What about writing? Of writing, the Philippines had its own written text, a form of which is still used by the Mangyan in Mindoro and Palawan today. They are not Chinese nor Hindi related but are seen to be related to writing found to be used also by the Bugis, a minority group who live in Celebes. Some Filipino scholars say that these writings come from the Bugis. Scholars from Celebes however, think that the Bugis got these writings from the Filipinos.

here's the link: http://members.aol.com/TaraCelest/artsculture.html

who's hating? i think it's all in your mind since you have developed a deep hatred for cambodians.

you never explain to me about the 6,000 years of seafaring and settling down. how is the austronesian language and culture still the same?