Did Vietnam invade or liberate Cambodia?

Greeting All,

I browse through different Asian Culture Forums on this discussion board and learn that some of the forums such as those of the Chinese and the Vietnamese ones are full of posters. Overall, most of those posters in those forums are using a debating technique called “You say, I say” where they try to disprove each other’s contention by bringing in the so-called pieces of evidence. It is quite entertaining to follow the drama if you have time to waste.

Anyway, today I’d like to present the topic “Did Vietnam invade or liberate Cambodia?” to the general readers. I will present my side of the coin, and with your willingness, you must also speak your side of the coin. I predict that it will be quite entertaining to debate on the different contentions.

January 7th, 2004 marked the 25th commemoration of the Vietnamese victory in Cambodia. On the occasion, the head of the ruling Cambodian People’s Party (CPP) thanked the Vietnamese government for ending the ultra-Maoist Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia.

However, while the ruling Cambodian People’s Party went on with its Vietnamese-thanking ceremony, dozens of democratic Cambodian activists disputed that January 7 was a day of shame as it marked the beginning of Vietnamese takeover and the loss of Cambodia’s independence and large parts of land.

Yimsut (2003) wrote that some Khmer view the Vietnamese as “invaders” based on two realities: Vietnam’s occupation policy and historical perceptions.

After successfully ousting the Khmer Rouge government in Cambodia, Vietnam controlled Cambodia for 10 years. Under its control, Vietnam set up and subjugated a puppet regime to run Cambodia. In addition, Vietnam appropriated large portions of Cambodia’s land and caused destruction of the Khmer people. This action of Vietnam clearly showed its true purpose and guiding principle. Only after the Soviet Unions collapsed that Vietnam ended its game and withdrew its forces from Cambodia in 1989.

According to the Khmer historical perceptions of Vietnam, that country has always been identified as the culprit that took over Khmer land and practiced “genocidal policy against the Khmer people”. The valid evidence to support this Vietnamese annexation and expansionism includes Kampuchea Krom and former Kingdom of Champa. Furthermore, as a unified country, Vietnam’s plan for the countries of Laos and Cambodia is still one of territorial spreading out or takeover. Proof of this policy is better seen through Vietnam’s actions in stationing its troop in Laos and occupying the Cambodian islands and land near the Vietnam-Cambodia border.

Some authors supported the Khmer view that the Vietnamese should be considered the invaders of Cambodia. For example, Grandolini, Cooper, & Troung (2004) wrote, “The Vietnamese regime were actually not concerned by the genocidal policy of the Khmer Rouge, but rather with fulfilling their historical ambition of regional domination, as well as stopping the spread of the Chinese influence in Cambodia. Nguyen Co Thach, the then Vietnamese Foreign Minister, later said that, “Human rights were not a question; That was THEIR problem – we were concerned only with security.”

Also it seems that the general Vietnamese view on this discussion board supports the Khmer view that the Vietnamese were the invaders of Cambodia. For example, in the Vietnamese Forum, a poster by the nick of Dai Viet arrogantly wrote that, “…We (Vietnam) [can] invade Cambodia in less than 1 week and capture their capital. We will turn Cambodia into our provinces and impose our culture upon you and you will learn to speak our language, dress our clothes, and obey our laws. Do it, and the Cambodian culture will survive; do it not, and you will see yourself like the Chams, you do remember the lessons of the Chams right? We erased their entire history, and you don't want to be like the Chams, right? If you do not obey the laws from your superior Vietnamese, we will have to destroy your entire civilization and the world will not even recognize your stones at all. Understand this, and you shall live. Understand this not, you shall suffer. WHEN COME TO VIETNAM, DO LIKE THE VIETNAMESE DO."

Another Vietnamese poster named Byron wrote, “The Khmer empire was very huge in land. Until the Vietnamese waged war on it and took lands from the Khmer Empire. Basically the only land left for the Cambodians is Cambodia. And even that land is controlled by the Vietnamese based government.” Byron continued his understanding of Vietnam’s ability to expand as follows, “… After Vietnam took over Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge ran into Thailand, and Vietnamese troops decided to chase them and started shooting artillery over the Cambodian border into Thailand. Thailand was scared and the U.N pressured Vietnam not to attack Thailand because Thailand would probably be defeated since they have never had a lot of combat experience since they've never been in any real wars. If it wasn't for the U.N I think Thailand would be occupied by Vietnam as well.”

So what do you readers think? Were the Vietnamese the “invaders” who capitalized on the Cambodian disability?

Until Next Time,
FKR


Reference:
“Cambodia commemorates end of Pol Pot” retrieved February 21, 2004 from http://www.khaleejtimes.co.ae/ktarchive/070103/theworld.htm

Yimsut, R. (2003) Vietnam: Was It Liberation or Invasion?

Grandolini, A., Cooper, T, & Troung. (2004) Indochina Database: Cambodia, 1954-1999; Part 3 from ACIG.org.

Welcome Back FKR,

I think the Vietnamese Communist Government invaded Cambodia, they do not care for the well-beings of Cambodians. In the process of invading, they ousted out the Khmer Rouge regime. The Khmer Rouge was more extreme then the Vietnamese, and so, to the eyes of the world, Vietnam looked as if they liberated Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge. Their intention was not to "SAVE" or "LIBERATE" Cambodians, but to invade and occupy Cambodia for their own benefit.

It's quite obvious the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia out of their own interests. Many Vietnamese members on this board have already implied that there was nothing wrong to occupy Cambodia and erase Khmer culture and enforce Vietnamese culture upon Khmer people, while themselves complained about how 'evil' Chinese exterminated Vietnamese traditions.

I would say Vietnam was neither. The reason why Vietnam invaded Cambodia was because Pol Pot attacked Vietnam's borders first. Cambodia dared to attack because the Chinese assured him that China would intervene if Vietnam retailiated.

Vietnam retailiated and was able to take Cambodia in 15 days, and the Chinese kept their promised and attacked Vietnam, but the Chinese retreated in 14 days.

I think the Vietnamese knew about the genocide in Cambodia for a long time but that probably wasn't the reason why they attacked. It was because Cambodia had attacked Vietnam first.

But think about this? Would you rather have the Vietnamese in control of Cambodia or the Khmer Rouge?

It is more likely that there wouldn't be a lot of Cambodians left if the Vietnamese didn't remove them from power.

I would have neither.
Actually the KR treated the "Pure Blood Khmer" pretty good like the farmers and Khmer Leur which are tribes living in the mountain since they kept their ways and weren't "corrupted". They mistreated different groups like the Chinese, Cham, Vietnamese, Thais, Laos and South Asian(I was surprised too!Travel Guide: Laos and Cambodia), or anyone that a threat to them such as high associated ppl such as teachers,Buddhist monk and doctors. A lot Khmer intermarried with the Chinese in the cities so they mostly killes those kind of Khmer.

Hey at least Vietnam didn't attack Cambodia first and when they took over Cambodia they didn't make Cambodia a part of Vietnam. Unlike China who attacked Tibet first and made it part of China. I find it funny that you would critize Vietnam for trying to get rid of Khmer culture, when the Chinese do even worse to Tibet. At least there is a Cambodian country that still exist. Can't say the same for Tibet.

I don't want to pick fights with the Chinese anymore but it's getting kind of hard to restrain myself when they keep on attacking Vietnamese people.

Uhm, excuse me? It seems like to me Vietnamese supremacists are doing most of the attacking

1.Cambodian member makes article about whether Vietnam liberated or invaded Cambodia.

2.A Chinese member comes up and tries to lecture Vietnamese members about invading countries is wrong.

3.A Vietnamese member points out to him that the Chinese shouldn't lecture to about the morality of invading countries since the Chinese have also done the same thing.

It seems to me it was a Chinese member here who started it. Now I wouldn't mind a Chinese member critizing Vietam for it if the Chinese never did it before.

It's kinda like a 1000 lbs man calling the 900 lbs man fat.

hey, I don't care China wiped out Vietnamese culture nor Vietnam eliminated Khmer culture. I was just pointing out that you were the one whining about China's oppression on Vietnam first, yet Vietnamese are doing the same.

I never said who started what, it seemed childish to me.

But to the Vietnamese supremacists on this forum is far from being innocent.

How come the Cambodians NOT involve together fighting back for beloved country!
Don't be prayed to the Buddha and wished the God comes down to help!!! You guys should help yourselves first! If you guys NO act, it have NOTHING can be happen! Doing whatever you can! Don't deny the million of your people's crying for help!!! Lives doesn't mean NOTHING. If they mutual respect...Thats greatful...But if they NOT. Starting VERSUS....

BachMaSon,


RockHeart.
:genius:

RockHeart,

You are indeed a brave individual. I like your inspirational motivating comment. I think you would make a great leader to the subjugated Khmer people who are still trapped in Vietnam and Thailand.

You are THE MAN.
FKR

I agree

Let me put it this way. It is the deed of the Vietnamese that saved the Khmer people from being exterminated by the Khmer Rouge regime. It is because of the Vietnamese that the Khmer Rouge were driven way way back north.

Now, the Vietnamese did take Khmer Krom from the Khmer. What about the Laotian, the Thai, the Burmese? Those people took wayyyyyyy more land from you than us and why are you keep targeting us but not those people?

Most Cambodians who have been esceped from their country to resettle in oversea. They were fascinated the foreigner country's sights. They were feeling ashame to be Cambodians. They didn't even care about their people were suffered, miserabled, persecuted by the Viet Regime...Come on people! You must be taken a "chance". No matter what, you must be participated together and making a strong decission. In order to resolve your Mother-Land's Crisis immediately. The invassion of Viet to your country was long enough. Are you feel hurt when some one stress you? Do you think, you can't fight the Viet??? If NOT, Why?? If YES, Starting to fight NOW!!! Don't watse times...

BachMaSon,


RockHeart.
:genius:

How the heaven can u say this crap!?!
You got any proof??
At LEAST someone from EVERY backgournd this.
AND if you know Khmer history you know we were Hinduism and we could be praying to Shiva or something.
Another thing is Buddha, himself say that he doesn't know if "god" exsist but we have the choice to believed whatever we want as long it in good heart and not harming others.
Oh yea don't tell me that Khmer is doing nothing and just praying to God unless been to every Khmer house and plz.... man don't also tell me that you never seen a Viet praying to "god. Cause your statement is over generaziling and basically prejudges.

What is your problem???


Are you talking about yourself?!?
Many Khmers are proud for who they are.
Not to be prejudges liek you....
but I seen more Viet saying that they Chinese then I see Cambodians claiming something else.
I am proud to be Khmer! fascinated the foreigner country's sights,,, I am mad that now , doesn't Vietnamese video "paris by night" sing English songs? Like that guy trying to be Ricky Martin??? Hhahah man look at yourself before you saying things!

Don't talk about power because Khmer had thier own land a lot longer than the Vietnamese.
I am part Viet but ppl like you make me feel ashame from being closed-minded and big ego.

You made a good point but Lao don't put it in our face or mistreating our ppl.
And I don't know what you talking about but personally I like Vietnam better than Thailand. At least you guys don't claim everything is yours and say Viet this and that like the Thai ppl.*my two cent*

I don't hate anyone based on their country but I am just look at the basic culture and yea, most Khmer don't like Thai.

Hey Kambolizhuz,

Don't give up so fast! Staying calm and rethink a little deeper...
If you all NOT reunited fighting back the enemy while they come over and over to demolish your people. Who will come to help you?? Do you think the Buddha or the God involving with your issue??? By the time, you waiting for help, may be your people melt to be water...

If you're related blood Khmers, but your comments were offended on Viets. So you're working for Viets as a SLAVER. And you betray your beloved country and your compatriots!! But if i mistaked for your comments, please accept my apology.

BachMaSon,


RockHeart.
:genius:

Hey, Tibet is originally owned by chinese....

I don't believe in God nor have I pray to him,, so that just prove you wrong
Khmer are doing something to help the country, I see a lot of different in only 3 years from 99 to now. Look at the DVDS

I was mad because you OVER generalize! You are saying that Khmer ppl are doing nothing and just praying. And saying that Khmer are ashamed about being Khmer.
Yes, I realize these thing happen but have to take that this happen in every race.
Look at the Japanese, and even Vietnamese, I have seem more culture influenced in them then the Khmers. But I can't also really say that since I have not meet all of them. Basically I just hate over generalize statement.



What do mean by this????

I personally think that Vietnam did liberate Cambodia from Pol Pot. The Cambodian population was about 5 million, and Pol Pot murdered 1 million people already. I think the Vietnamese government did liberate Cambodia and return the government back to the people. We acted like the U.S. invading Iraq and put the government back to its people.



Are there any differences between Thailand and Vietnam in the eyes of a Cambodian?

It was seven million ppl and 1.7 million ppl died.
I wouldn't personal say liberate since it was more for the Vietnamese troop interest rather then feeling sorry for the Khmer who are suffering.
In my opinion the U.N. were actually the one since they were there to set up refugee camps.

In my eyes, I feel like the Viet look down upon on Khmer and the Thai don't hate Khmer but they rather be white(look at their stars) and since Khmer are dark we are more look at as being ugly. The problem with the Thai is that they are wealter and get to expose their culture to the west and claiming it all theirs. It thai this and thai that, Muay-Thai, SukoThai, thai curry blah blah . Someone thought curry originated from Thailand when it actually from India. I don't have a problem of them exposing it to the west but at least give Khmer some credits for their influences.

No, the Vietnamese people actually respect the Cambodians for their glory history during the times of Angkor Wat. I am actually impressed and honored that Cambodia is next to Vietnam, because Cambodia has the Angkor Wat, which stood out for South Ease Asia.

As for the Thai, they are proud that Thailand was not colonized by any European nation, that is why they think they are more superior then the rest of other SEA nations, but that's just my opinion.

I've always considered the Khmer to be a distant relative of the Vietnamese.

Greeting "tqt"

You wrote, "I've always considered the Khmer to be a distant relative of the Vietnamese."

Somehow after reading your statement, I have become so reflective. Is it POSSIBLE that the Khmer and the Vietnamese are actually related? What are the pieces of evidence that help answer this essential question? Within that essential question, what are the related ISSUES that need to be confronted with? What is the truth, if the truth is supposed to set the knowledge seekers free?

I personally have not research any information on the topic, but I am very interested in learning more about what you already know as the possible link between the Khmer and the Vietnamese.

I know for a fact that the Khmer and the Viets did not share a common border for centuries.

Reportedly, different sources say that there are noticeable similarities between the Khmer and the Veits even if the members of the two groups choose to deny them.

Those sources say that if the Chinese influences were to be taken out from the Vietnamese language, and the Indian influences were also to be taken out from the Khmer language, both the natural Vietnamese and Khmer languages are more akin. There are examples of course but I don't remember. I only know that natural Vietnamese number names and Khmer number names are very much alike. The Khmer eat their traditional fish paste, the Viets also make their fish sauce from their fish paste. Due to the different ethnic interbreeding, the Khmer have become tannish or brownish complexion, while the Vietnamese retain their light complexion.

Who are the Vietnamese and who are the Khmer? What common ancestors were these two people belong to?

If the Khmer and the Viets are shown to be distantly related, then it is sad that they are killing cousins in the present.

Tell me more, tgt.
FKR

I am sorry if I sound over generalize, I meant that how i feel about SOME Vietnames and don't get me wrong there Khmer who has a big ego and look at others. Like my Viet friend say that like the old or traditional Vietnanese think Khmer are very ugly because we are dark and stuff. And when I go our Asia town here down in Denver, some of the Vietnamese store owner(all old ladies) i encounter just give me and my mom dirty looks or ignore us when we want to buy phone cards so we can call Vietnam. It like they are ashamed that we are Vietnamese(that what they think).

Yea, what you say about the Thai is true but I don't feel like they show that off as much as claiming Thai this and that. At the Japanese admitted they were influenced by the Chinese, and Kimono are actually from China, or how all their borrow words are made into Katakana, instead of Kanji or Higakana.

My bad Kanji is Chinese it just pronoun different in Japanese or Nippon.
p.s. my second year in Japanese class but I kinda give up and I am planning to go to China next year for three weeks, for my junior high....in high school.
Wish me luck, I am applying this year and hope the program choose me to go.
If I do make it, I'll be the second Asian in my school to go to China!

Saved? Do you understand the meaning of the word? Khmer Rough was after Kampuchea Krom taken by the Vietnamese. Now, do the Vietnamese have DEED?? What does the meaning of that word? I do not understand but please do explain. But I do think the meaning of that word is to HELP not to SUPRESS.

As for RockHeart, Khmer will fight back once that Hun Sen is gone. You do remember the first try do you? Where many Cambodian from the United States went to Cambodia and try to murder Hun Sen.

I am a Khmer Krom but if you need MEN to fight, give me a call.

Always show your pride my friends.
Thay_

We, KhmerPride from many decades ago! We always mutual respect to the human privileges. We never unconformed the International Law or Human rights. We would like to legitimize the law for human been. We always elaborate opinions of consensus before we act. But if the enemy intentional feeling to massacres our compatriots, and invade our beloved country...We, KhmerPride around the world reunited to attack back that disastrous oppresion for all entirelives!!! Its time for Khmers react now!!

KhmerRevolution,

RockHeart,
:genius:

Where in China will you be going to?

If you are going to Beijing or Shanghai, two Chinese cities I'm very familiar with, I'd be more than happy to give you some tips

Also, you can check out some of my pictures from Beijing and Shanghai on my homepage.

http://homepage.mac.com/weverusa/

Enjoy

For me, if i have a chance to go to visit the China. I will like to combat at Shanghai. According for your homepage is Shanghai is a great city of China. My aunt is still living there. The year before China took over Hong-Kong, that the year i went to there...

I loved the styles eating who are living in China...Most them loved to eat Nodles, and drove the bycicles to work There're many narrow streets around the city, the streets were fullnoisies of multi-travellors, anywhere and anyplace were fully of traffice. Especially, at the night time while the city mixed colors show up. Its so wonderful land of China city!!

BMS

RockHeart.
:genius:

If I do go I think we are going to stay at Kumming(spelling?) and then spend 2 two in Beijing and visit the Great Wall !!! It a three weeks trip.

Ah, Kunming. That's in Yunnan province. A very beautiful place. I have pictures from Yunnan too

Yea, my friends brought many pictures too. It is really beautiful, oh yea I heard that it the flower place od China or that a different city ? Shanghai would be fun to go to since it very modern.