Lest open the debate to a wider range of theories.

Here are some questions to all the Masterdebaters and Cunninglinguist in the prior thread.
Jayavarman II, Javanese or not, was not the only forfather of Angkorian Civilizaton. Who was his father, Jayavarman the First, where was he born, who assinated him, and how. Who conquested his land first?

How about the Indian Perspective that claimed that the Varman dynasty of Cambodia, that Included Jayavarman II and his ancestors were Indian. There are genealogical links between a royalty of Kambuja and that of Pallavas of Kanchi in South East India. The two royalties intermingled. When King Paramesvara Varman II (728-32) of the Pallava Kingdom in Kanchi died. No male was left to continue his lineage. Except for one Child named Nandivarman II. Nandivarman II was already a prince FROM CAMBODIA. He was brought to India to rule the Throne of the Pallavas, because he was believed to be the love child of King Paramesvara Varman II and a Cambodian Princess. NOW REMEMBER THIS, "Paramesvara" is the posthumous name for Jayavarman II. And all of this happened before Jayavarman II(770-850) was a little fish in hid daddy's balls.
SOURCE: Saving Angkor, by C.M. Bhandari

I can go into the The Theories about the Kambujas of Bengladesh and the KAmbojas of Kashmir. But those are all outlandish.

the only influence khmers received from java was in architecture and how to perform god-king rituals... khmers and chams were the only hindus in SEA correct? those indonesian kingdoms were buddhists if i'm not mistaken..

devarajas are of Indian origin. Some Indonesian Kingdoms were Hindus too, and some still are like the Island of Bali.

.

[QUOTE]Lest open the debate to a wider range of theories.[/QUOTE]

I think it is FUN to deal with GUESSES ---- you know like the THEORIES of how the dinosuars became extint on earth.

[QUOTE]Jayavarman II, Javanese or not, was not the only forfather of Angkorian Civilizaton. Who was his father, Jayavarman the First, where was he born, who assinated him, and how. Who conquested his land first?[/QUOTE]

Really? OH OK. I wonder how you can come up with that conclusion above? Do you have the evidence to back up your view above? While it is true that Jayvarman the second had a father just like you and I, how do you know for a fact that His Majesty Jayvarman the First was the FATHER of Jayvaramn the Second? You have proof of that? If you browse through the lineage of the various ancient Kings starting from Funan to the end of the Angkorian period, you will quickly note that not ALL kings were related to each others. There were many contenders for the throne. Some of the ancients Kings didn't even have the royal blood related to the previous ruling monarch. They were just noblemen. So without evidence, it is never a safe thing to conclude that Jayvarman the First was the father of Jayvarman the second.

However according to this website, here is a little information on Jayvarmarman the First and answer to your questions posted:

[QUOTE]|AD514 - c. AD539 King Rudravarman is the last of the great kings of Funan.

|c. AD550 Prince Bhavavarman of the Funan royal family (and grandson of King Rudravarman) becomes King of Chenla upon the Chenla king's death. Chenla is inhabited by the Mon-Khmer people whose leaders are related to the Funan royal family before the time of Bhavavarman. In addition, when the Funan king dies, he siezes Funan as well. Within a few years, Funan becomes a vassal state to Chenla.

c. AD600 - AD611 Bhavavarman is succeeded by Mahendravarman and then by Isanavarman, both of whom are strong kings and complete the process of integrating Funan into Chenla. The capital of Chenla is initially at Sambor, some 40 miles southeast of Angkor.

|AD616 - AD635 King Isanavarman rules the Kingdom of Chenla with his capital at Sambor Prei Kuk.

|AD635 - AD656 King Bhavavarman II rules Chenla.

|c. AD750 Jayavarman I becomes King of Chenla. His reputation is as a strong war-like king who expands the Chenla kingdom through his many conquests. Ruined temples from this time still stand in the land around the Angkor region. Wars of succession divide and weaken Kambuja. Contact with India is broken and trade ceases. As the Kingdom of Chenla declines, the Saliendra dynasty in Indonesia rises to power. It is possible that this Indonesian dynasty may have, in part, descended from the royal family of Funan.

|Late AD800 This is a period of weakness and eventual disintegration into individual states for the Kingdom of Chenla. There is an administrative breakdown which results in the separate states being powerless. Meanwhile the Saliendra dynasty, the ruling house of the Indonesian Empire, becomes increasingly powerful and starts expanding in southeast Asia. The Saliendra king of Java invades Chenla and claims the throne, possibly on the grounds that he is descended from the royal house of Funan. Cambodia becomes a vassal state of Java.

|c. AD800 - AD850 Jayavarman II, a young man connected to the Chenla royal family and educated at the Saliendra court in Java, returns to Chenla in AD790. He becomes king around AD800. Initially he extends his kingdom by seizing land to the north and east of Chenla. His 50-year reign is decisive in developing the Khmer Kingdom by establishing its constitution, religion and capital. His reign also sees important changes in Khmer architecture. He builds several capitals, but finally establishes his principal capital at Roluos, about 10 miles southeast of today's town of Siem Reap. He names this city Hariharalaya.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]How about the Indian Perspective that claimed that the Varman dynasty of Cambodia, that Included Jayavarman II and his ancestors were Indian. There are genealogical links between a royalty of Kambuja and that of Pallavas of Kanchi in South East India. The two royalties intermingled. When King Paramesvara Varman II (728-32) of the Pallava Kingdom in Kanchi died. No male was left to continue his lineage. Except for one Child named Nandivarman II. Nandivarman II was already a prince FROM CAMBODIA. He was brought to India to rule the Throne of the Pallavas, because he was believed to be the love child of King Paramesvara Varman II and a Cambodian Princess. NOW REMEMBER THIS, "Paramesvara" is the posthumous name for Jayavarman II. And all of this happened before Jayavarman II(770-850) was a little fish in hid daddy's balls.
SOURCE: Saving Angkor, by C.M. Bhandari[/QUOTE]

Well to this source of yours, I will ask you again for the evidence. According to the royal family lineage, I will agree with you to a certain extent that the original patriarchal royal bloodline was of the Indian original brahmin. However, one should never forget that the fact that FUNAN was already ruled by Her Majesty Royal Princess Soma way before the original Indian Brahmin. Regarding the the LINKS between the royal lineage of Kambuja and that of Pallavas of Kanchi in SouthEast India, I need to read up on more corroborating evidence.

The using of the name or title of "Paramesvara" as the basis of the family lineage is not a very safe assumption to begin with. I am not easy with that kind of basis. The King of Pallava Kingdom in Kanchi had a living royal name of "Paramesvara Varman II", while His Majesty King Jayvarman II of Kamboja chose the title of "Paramesvara" after his death. How does this show family connection in anyway? Titles never show any family connection at all. In addition, what really defies logic is the account of this prince named Nandivarman II from Cambodia who became ruler of Pallavas because he was supposedly the son of King Paramesvara and a Cambodian princess. Even if it was so, how does this account show the fact that His Majesty Jayvarman II of Cambodia are directly related to King Paramesvara Varman II of Pallava Kingdom? Nandivarman II was clearly not the same person by the name of Jayvarman II because Jayvaraman II was the Khmer captive returning to Cambodia from Java, while Nandivarman II was the ruling King of Pallava Kingdom. Again, the fact that Jayvarman II of Cambodia chose the "posthumous" name of "Paramesvara" does not prove any family connection to the royal family of Pallava Kingdom.

So to claim that Jayvaraman II of Cambodia "was a little fish in his daddy's [King Paramesvara of Pallava] balls" is very ABSURD not to mention STUPID. In addition, if King Paramesvara of Pallava Kingdom was Jayvaraman II's father, then what about your question of Jayvarman the First as Jayvaraman the Second? This stupid confusion is going nowhere.

Here is a little history about how the Khmer ancient Kings were a little related to the Original Indian Brahman. In addition, if we look closely, the Indian Brahman was not even of royal bloodline, but he was only a Brahman. So actually, the royal bloodline had always been of the First Funan Queen Soma. It is no wonder that ALL the contenders to the throne always CLAIMED that their ancestors were related to Queen Soma in order to gain the popular support for their right to the throne.


[QUOTE]|c. AD100 The Kingdom of Funan, part of the lands which will become the vast Khmer Empire or Cambodia, is established by the legendary Indian brahmin, Kambu.

|c. AD245 Two Chinese ambassadors visit Funan and produce a report on all aspects of life in the kingdom.

|AD357 King Chandan, who is probably of Indian origin, comes to the throne of Funan. He is succeeded by another brahmin ruler.

|AD514 - c. AD539 King Rudravarman is the last of the great kings of Funan.

|c. AD550 Prince Bhavavarman of the Funan royal family (and grandson of King Rudravarman) becomes King of Chenla on the Chenla king's death, and when the Funan king dies, he siezes Funan as well. Within a few years, Funan becomes a vassal state to Chenla. Chenla is inhabited by the Mon-Khmer people whose leaders are related to the Funan royal family before the time of Bhavavarman.[/QUOTE]

|c. AD600 - AD611 Bhavavarman is succeeded by Mahendravarman and then by Isanavarman, both of whom are strong kings and complete the process of integrating Funan into Chenla.

|AD616 - AD635 King Isanavarman rules the Kingdom of Chenla.

|AD635 - AD656 King Bhavavarman II rules Chenla.

|c. AD750 Jayavarman I becomes King of Chenla. His reputation is as a strong war-like king who expands the Chenla kingdom through his many conquests. Ruined temples from this time still stand in the land around the Angkor region. Wars of succession divide and weaken Kambuja. Contact with India is broken and trade ceases. As the Kingdom of Chenla declines, the Saliendra dynasty in Indonesia rises to power. It is possible that this Indonesian dynasty may have, in part, descended from the royal family of Funan.

|Late AD800 The Saliendra king of Java invades Chenla and claims the throne, possibly on the grounds that he is descended from the royal house of Funan. Cambodia becomes a vassal state of Java.

|c. AD800 - AD850 Jayavarman II, a young man connected to the Chenla royal family and educated at the Saliendra court in Java, returns to Chenla in AD790. He becomes king around AD800. Initially he extends his kingdom by seizing land to the north and east of Chenla. His 50-year reign is decisive in developing the Khmer Kingdom by establishing its constitution, religion and capital. His reign also sees important changes in Khmer architecture. He builds several capitals, but finally establishes his principal capital at Roluos, about 10 miles southeast of today's town of Siem Reap. He names this city Hariharalaya.[/quote]

About Jayavarman II . Several versions are given about his background : Indian descent, Javanese, Khmer etc. Several versions what he was doing on Java too. Prince in exile, HOSTAGE, sailendra KING, Prisoner. All contradictory !!


The India-centric versions should be taken with the most caution. According to them everything was not just India-inspired to a certain level but 100% Indian. The style, the rulers, everything! They never heard of SEAsians taken inspiration but creating own unique styles. There are even Indian sites that speak of "Angkor Vat, the glory of INDIA/ns "

Hello Tony, how are you doing? It is me, Cambodge. I hope I have not caused too much ill-feeling within you about various responses to you on another thread. Anyway, I just want to clear the bad clouds between the two of us so that we can have a fresh start. Before I comment on your post, let me just say this out to and to the world. Some sources CLAIMS that the Khmer of Chenla destroyed the non-khmer Kingdom of Funan. This is a false statement. According to the the royal lineage accounts of the various ruling kings of Funan, Chenla, and Angkor Empire, All of the ruling kings of the different eras were related. According to the Chinese historical accounts, the state of Funan subjugated the state of Chenla. However, the ruling kings of both states were related. In fact, the absorption of Funan into the emerging Chenla was also done by non other than the royal member of the ruling house of Funan. It was done like this: First the grandson of the ruling King of Funan became King of Chenla after the death of the Chenla's king. Then after the ruling king of Funan died, his same grandson also took over Funan and absorbed into Chenla. The Kings of Angkor Empire were also related to both Chenla and Funan rulers. The present-day Cambodian royalty is also related to the Angkorian Kings through the bloodline of a female princess.



Thank for the information. I will keep watch for that kind of claim from them Indians.

^Those India-centric Devoute Hindus are pissed that the that largest Hindu monument isn't at there home turf. Thats all.... Its was the Ancient Khmers who pleased Vishnu well.... Or was it Shiva?

And the other source: http://ignca.nic.in/nl_00810.htm The book has it in depth.

I didn't mean to use the source seriously. I just find it intriqueing. Just wanted to ingite that spark you and TonyL had in the prior debate. The moderator block of that thread wasn't justified, I bet its still in review. ANyways.... You may notice that King Sihanouk also had a doing in the book, wrote the preface... So it could just be outlandish propoganda for all we know.

In ancient Hindu Khmer, what is the most worshipped and the main god above others?
Is it Lord Vishnu or Lord Shiva?
In ancient Javan Hinduism, Shiva seems to be the chief god that rule the Trimurti (Hinduism main three gods; Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva).
How's in Khmer?