The title says it all
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Apr17.html
China's Selective Memory
By Fred Hiatt
Monday, April 18, 2005; Page A17
China, a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council, has made clear that it doesn't think Japan is deserving of similar status.
You might wonder why not. After all, Japan is one of the world's largest contributors of foreign aid and most generous backers of the United Nations, a successful democracy for more than a half-century, with a powerhouse economy and a constitution that forbids aggression.
But here's the problem, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao explained last week: "Japan needs to face up to history squarely." After another weekend of anti-Japanese protests and riots in China, China's foreign minister yesterday amplified that "the main problem now is that the Japanese government has done a series of things that have hurt the feelings of the Chinese people . . . especially in its treatment of history."
Truth in history is an interesting standard for great-power status. One intriguing response would be for Japan to embrace it and suggest politely that, if China wants to keep its Security Council seat, it ought to do the same.
There's no doubt, as Premier Wen implied, that some Japanese have a hard time admitting the terrible things their troops did in China, Korea and other occupied Asian countries before and during World War II. Apologies sometimes seem to be mumbled, and textbooks sometimes minimize past crimes.
Recently, for example, Japan's education ministry approved a textbook that refers to the 1937 Nanjing Massacre as an "incident" during which "many" Chinese were killed, though some estimates of civilian deaths run as high as 300,000. News of these textbooks helped spark the anti-Japanese riots in Chinese cities.
But put the issue in some perspective: Many textbooks receive ministry approval in Tokyo, and no school is forced to use any particular one. Issues of war guilt or innocence, and of proper historiography, are debated endlessly and openly in Japanese newspapers, magazines and universities. Some Japanese demonstrate against politicians who won't go to Yasukuni Shrine -- where Japan's war dead, including some who were judged war criminals, are honored -- while other Japanese demonstrate against politicians who do go.
Compare this to the situation in Premier Wen's China. There
is only one acceptable version of history, at least at any given time; history often changes, but only when the Communist Party decides to change it.
For example, according to a report by Howard W. French in the New York Times last December, many textbooks don't mention that anyone died at what the outside world knows as the 1989 massacre of student demonstrators near Tiananmen Square. One 1998 text notes only that "the Central Committee took action in time and restored calm." Anyone who challenges the official fiction is subject to harsh punishment, including beatings, house arrest or imprisonment.
And if the 300,000 victims of the Nanjing Massacre are slighted in some Japanese textbooks, what of the 30 million Chinese who died in famines created by Mao Zedong's lunatic Great Leap Forward between 1958 and 1962? No mention in Chinese texts; didn't happen.
Well, you might say, how a nation treats its internal history is less relevant to its qualifications for the Security Council than whether it teaches its children honestly about its wars with other nations. A dubious proposition, but no matter; as the Times found in its review of textbooks, Chinese children do not learn of their nation's invasion of Tibet (1950) or aggression against Vietnam (1979). And they are taught that Japan was defeated in World War II by Chinese Communist guerrillas; Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima and Midway don't figure in.
"Facing up to history squarely" isn't easy for any country. Americans don't agree on how to remember the Confederacy. Russia can't yet admit to Soviet depredations in the Baltic republics. And, yes, Japan too often sees itself purely as a victim of World War II.
But in countries that permit open debate, historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, revised, maybe brought closer to the truth. In dictatorships that use history as one more tool to maintain power, there's no such hope.
China's Communists used to find it useful to vilify Russia in their history texts. These days, for reasons of China's aspirations to lead Asia, Japan makes a more convenient villain. Next year might be America's turn. The reasons may be complex, but none of them has much to do with facing history squarely.
fredhiatt@washpost.com
Full Version: China's selective memory
^ Typical American fear of the Red monster.
Obviously all Communists change history because they aren't of a similar mindset whereas Japan under the 'guise of democracy fit into what an American journalist feels is the "good guy".
Of course, in times when Japan is changing history, it is only obvious to accuse the victims of doing the same.
It is very sad to see. The objection to Japan's UNSC seat is a legitimate one.
Obviously all Communists change history because they aren't of a similar mindset whereas Japan under the 'guise of democracy fit into what an American journalist feels is the "good guy".
Of course, in times when Japan is changing history, it is only obvious to accuse the victims of doing the same.
It is very sad to see. The objection to Japan's UNSC seat is a legitimate one.
Oh sure, nothing but american propaganda against China 
2 Please don't try to argue against the facts, nobody distorts history as much as China does, NOBODY. According to the CCP, the GLP and CR started by Chairman Mao did not kill millions of people. Kids in China also do not know anything about Tibet hmmm funny isn't it? Oh and what about China's invasion of Vietnam in 1979 which resulted in her asswhooping? Blocking Japan's seat at the UNSC is hypocrisy at it's finest especially coming from the Chinese.
2 Please don't try to argue against the facts, nobody distorts history as much as China does, NOBODY. According to the CCP, the GLP and CR started by Chairman Mao did not kill millions of people. Kids in China also do not know anything about Tibet hmmm funny isn't it? Oh and what about China's invasion of Vietnam in 1979 which resulted in her asswhooping? Blocking Japan's seat at the UNSC is hypocrisy at it's finest especially coming from the Chinese.
The difference is that China are already on the UNSC. Japan should take a more humble stance and apologise for known atrocities. If they really think that behaving in the way that they are at the moment, would get them onto the UNSC when China has vetoing power, then they really are stupid.
Didn't say that. Every country in the world has blood on their hands but Japan is a country that wants something that China can give them and they are acting way too arrogant for a country that needs another's help.
I think it sums up the current J-government well, arrogant and stupid.
I just find it obvious that the American media would take the Japanese angle and make the Chinese to look unreasonable.
QUOTE
Oh sure, nothing but american propaganda against China
Didn't say that. Every country in the world has blood on their hands but Japan is a country that wants something that China can give them and they are acting way too arrogant for a country that needs another's help.
I think it sums up the current J-government well, arrogant and stupid.
I just find it obvious that the American media would take the Japanese angle and make the Chinese to look unreasonable.
China employs double standard. China doesn't live up to history AT ALL. Blatant denial of the past.
Japan merely has some private civilians stating PERHAPS we should question the validity of Japan = evil stories. This does not equal Japan is whitewashing history.
Japan has much more right to be on the UNSC than the PRC which still commits atrocities and denies history.
Personally though, I don't think that Japan should be on the UNSC for reasons other than this.
Japan merely has some private civilians stating PERHAPS we should question the validity of Japan = evil stories. This does not equal Japan is whitewashing history.
Japan has much more right to be on the UNSC than the PRC which still commits atrocities and denies history.
Personally though, I don't think that Japan should be on the UNSC for reasons other than this.
QUOTE (khu91x @ Apr 18 2005, 07:23 PM)
LOL, nice
QUOTE (Jaimu-Jaimu @ Apr 18 2005, 02:36 AM)
QUOTE
Oh sure, nothing but american propaganda against China
I just find it obvious that the American media would take the Japanese angle and make the Chinese to look unreasonable.
The American media has taken a fairly even-handed approach. Can't say the same for the PRC-controlled media or the Japanese media (to a lesser extent).
QUOTE (doozer3 @ Apr 18 2005, 09:02 PM)
QUOTE (Jaimu-Jaimu @ Apr 18 2005, 02:36 AM)
QUOTE
Oh sure, nothing but american propaganda against China
I just find it obvious that the American media would take the Japanese angle and make the Chinese to look unreasonable.
The American media has taken a fairly even-handed approach. Can't say the same for the PRC-controlled media or the Japanese media (to a lesser extent).
I don't think anybody can precisely pinpoint how bias the American or Chinese media would be unless you are a journalist yourself in those specific fields.
I don’t know I think America is a little bias against China over all, well at least in the past. Things are starting to change. I have seen an American commercial saying visit China. That was a shocker.
Of course America is a little bias in favor of Japan as well. After all it’s like what ever America says Japan does, like the saying goes it is as if they are partners in crime
Not so sure how much these biases are portrayed in the media however considering these countries have a so called “freedom of press”.
I would not be surprised that a PRC-controlled media however would be bias in the least.
Of course America is a little bias in favor of Japan as well. After all it’s like what ever America says Japan does, like the saying goes it is as if they are partners in crime
Not so sure how much these biases are portrayed in the media however considering these countries have a so called “freedom of press”.
I would not be surprised that a PRC-controlled media however would be bias in the least.
QUOTE (item1702 @ Apr 19 2005, 03:21 AM)
I don’t know I think America is a little bias against China over all, well at least in the past. Things are starting to change. I have seen an American commercial saying visit China. That was a shocker.
Of course America is a little bias in favor of Japan as well. After all it’s like what ever America says Japan does, like the saying goes it is as if they are partners in crime
Not so sure how much these biases are portrayed in the media however considering these countries have a so called “freedom of press”.
I would not be surprised that a PRC-controlled media however would be bias in the least.
Of course America is a little bias in favor of Japan as well. After all it’s like what ever America says Japan does, like the saying goes it is as if they are partners in crime
Not so sure how much these biases are portrayed in the media however considering these countries have a so called “freedom of press”.
I would not be surprised that a PRC-controlled media however would be bias in the least.
I agree with everything you just said, well-written.
It's hard to say what things they will censor. But that's not for me/us to decide.
What Chinese textbooks don't say
Sunday, April 17, 2005 Posted: 1246 GMT (2046 HKT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHANGHAI, China (AP) -- Some things you won't find in Chinese history textbooks: the 1989 democracy movement, the millions who died in a famine caused by misguided communist policies or China's military attacks on India and Vietnam.
As China criticizes Japan for new textbooks that critics say minimize wartime abuses like the Japanese military forcing Asian women into sexual slavery, Beijing's own schoolbooks have significant omissions about the communist system's own history and relations with its neighbors.
"With rising Chinese nationalism, the efforts to rewrite history, to reinterpret history according to the demands of nationalism have become a major national pastime," said Maochun Yu, a history professor at the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland.
Experts say China's textbooks are written to heighten a sense of national victimhood and glorify the Communist Party that seized power in a 1949 revolution and lashes out at any threat to its rule.
The books describe those who died fighting Japan and other outsiders as having "gloriously sacrificed" themselves for China.
Propaganda paintings reproduced in schoolbooks show Chinese struggling against foreign invaders -- poses imitated by protesters who threw rocks at the Japanese Embassy in Beijing over the weekend during violent anti-Japanese demonstrations in several Chinese cities.
An eighth-grade history book used in Shanghai, China's most cosmopolitan city, repeatedly refers to Japanese by an insulting phrase that roughly translates as "j@p bandits."
The book focuses on Japanese atrocities and repeats China's claim that 35 million Chinese died or were injured during their 1937-45 war.
"Wherever the Japanese army went, they burned, killed, stole and plundered," the book says. "There was no wickedness they didn't commit."
Omissions of major events appear aimed at shoring up China's image of itself as a non-aggressor, especially since the 1949 revolution.
The books don't mention the brief but bloody 1962 border war with India that broke out when Chinese troops attacked Indian positions to enforce territorial claims.
There is nothing on the 1979 war when Chinese troops attacked Vietnam. The assault was ordered to punish Hanoi for ousting the murderous Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia, which was an ally of Beijing.
Also missing:
The 1989 crackdown on democracy demonstrations, when Chinese troops killed hundreds and possibly thousands of unarmed protesters.
The estimated 30 million Chinese who starved to death during the 1958-61 "Great Leap Forward," revolutionary leader Mao Zedong's attempt to speed up China's farm and factory output through mass collectivization.
Textbooks gloss over ally North Korea's invasion of South Korea at the start of the 1950-53 Korean War, a conflict that drew in troops from the United States and other countries on the side of the South and China's army in support of the North.
The texts say only that "civil war broke out," without mentioning how it started. America is portrayed as an invader that forced Beijing to intervene by threatening Chinese territory.
A seventh-grade text also accuses the U.S. military of using biological weapons during the Korean War, repeating a claim made by China, North Korea and the former Soviet Union during the Cold War but never proven.
While Japan's distortions of its history appear driven by a reluctance to accept shame, China's are aimed at preserving communist rule, said Sin-ming Shaw, a China scholar at Oxford University in England.
"Not owning up is a calculated political policy," Shaw said.
SOURCE: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/...n.ap/index.html
Sunday, April 17, 2005 Posted: 1246 GMT (2046 HKT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHANGHAI, China (AP) -- Some things you won't find in Chinese history textbooks: the 1989 democracy movement, the millions who died in a famine caused by misguided communist policies or China's military attacks on India and Vietnam.
As China criticizes Japan for new textbooks that critics say minimize wartime abuses like the Japanese military forcing Asian women into sexual slavery, Beijing's own schoolbooks have significant omissions about the communist system's own history and relations with its neighbors.
"With rising Chinese nationalism, the efforts to rewrite history, to reinterpret history according to the demands of nationalism have become a major national pastime," said Maochun Yu, a history professor at the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland.
Experts say China's textbooks are written to heighten a sense of national victimhood and glorify the Communist Party that seized power in a 1949 revolution and lashes out at any threat to its rule.
The books describe those who died fighting Japan and other outsiders as having "gloriously sacrificed" themselves for China.
Propaganda paintings reproduced in schoolbooks show Chinese struggling against foreign invaders -- poses imitated by protesters who threw rocks at the Japanese Embassy in Beijing over the weekend during violent anti-Japanese demonstrations in several Chinese cities.
An eighth-grade history book used in Shanghai, China's most cosmopolitan city, repeatedly refers to Japanese by an insulting phrase that roughly translates as "j@p bandits."
The book focuses on Japanese atrocities and repeats China's claim that 35 million Chinese died or were injured during their 1937-45 war.
"Wherever the Japanese army went, they burned, killed, stole and plundered," the book says. "There was no wickedness they didn't commit."
Omissions of major events appear aimed at shoring up China's image of itself as a non-aggressor, especially since the 1949 revolution.
The books don't mention the brief but bloody 1962 border war with India that broke out when Chinese troops attacked Indian positions to enforce territorial claims.
There is nothing on the 1979 war when Chinese troops attacked Vietnam. The assault was ordered to punish Hanoi for ousting the murderous Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia, which was an ally of Beijing.
Also missing:
The 1989 crackdown on democracy demonstrations, when Chinese troops killed hundreds and possibly thousands of unarmed protesters.
The estimated 30 million Chinese who starved to death during the 1958-61 "Great Leap Forward," revolutionary leader Mao Zedong's attempt to speed up China's farm and factory output through mass collectivization.
Textbooks gloss over ally North Korea's invasion of South Korea at the start of the 1950-53 Korean War, a conflict that drew in troops from the United States and other countries on the side of the South and China's army in support of the North.
The texts say only that "civil war broke out," without mentioning how it started. America is portrayed as an invader that forced Beijing to intervene by threatening Chinese territory.
A seventh-grade text also accuses the U.S. military of using biological weapons during the Korean War, repeating a claim made by China, North Korea and the former Soviet Union during the Cold War but never proven.
While Japan's distortions of its history appear driven by a reluctance to accept shame, China's are aimed at preserving communist rule, said Sin-ming Shaw, a China scholar at Oxford University in England.
"Not owning up is a calculated political policy," Shaw said.
SOURCE: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/...n.ap/index.html
i'm impressed by the effectiveness of the PRC's educational system
after having talked to a few enlightened Mainlanders who were both born and raised in China, they told me...
the reason why most Mainlanders are so confrontational/emotional about any political issues relating to PRC government (CCP) is because they ferverntly regard any accusations towards the PRC/CCP/China as personal attacks, for that's what they were taught to believe. this idea is then further enforced by the collectivistic nature of the Chinese society. once you step out of line or have an idea that's different from the masses, you'll be branded as a traitor. if you speak up against the government, you'll be a traitor. basically, the party, the people, the country are all ONE...this explains the Chinese people's overzealous nationalism.
this makes it hard for me to discuss about sensitive topics w/ Mainlanders, for they would interpret my negative impressions of the CCP as personal attacks, while i never did mean to offend them for i knew/thought that whatever the CCP did had nothing do w/ with them. the same logic applies for the Taiwanese people. decisions/actions of the various parties or the ROC gov have nothing to do w/ me as an individual for i am free to believe what i want to believe. if you were to attack the position of the Taiwanese government, i would not be offended because i know we come from different backgrounds and were "brainwashed" by our respective educational systems. the point here is not to see who wins a debate, but to put yourself in the other person's shoes and reach some sort of mutual understanding. if i understand your point of view, then you should at least try to understand mine. i haven't been able to reach this level w/ many Mainlanders, only a few
if China were to invade Taiwan, i would hate the CCP, but not the Chinese people; i seriously hope more and more Mainlanders would start to think for themselves.
after having talked to a few enlightened Mainlanders who were both born and raised in China, they told me...
the reason why most Mainlanders are so confrontational/emotional about any political issues relating to PRC government (CCP) is because they ferverntly regard any accusations towards the PRC/CCP/China as personal attacks, for that's what they were taught to believe. this idea is then further enforced by the collectivistic nature of the Chinese society. once you step out of line or have an idea that's different from the masses, you'll be branded as a traitor. if you speak up against the government, you'll be a traitor. basically, the party, the people, the country are all ONE...this explains the Chinese people's overzealous nationalism.
this makes it hard for me to discuss about sensitive topics w/ Mainlanders, for they would interpret my negative impressions of the CCP as personal attacks, while i never did mean to offend them for i knew/thought that whatever the CCP did had nothing do w/ with them. the same logic applies for the Taiwanese people. decisions/actions of the various parties or the ROC gov have nothing to do w/ me as an individual for i am free to believe what i want to believe. if you were to attack the position of the Taiwanese government, i would not be offended because i know we come from different backgrounds and were "brainwashed" by our respective educational systems. the point here is not to see who wins a debate, but to put yourself in the other person's shoes and reach some sort of mutual understanding. if i understand your point of view, then you should at least try to understand mine. i haven't been able to reach this level w/ many Mainlanders, only a few
if China were to invade Taiwan, i would hate the CCP, but not the Chinese people; i seriously hope more and more Mainlanders would start to think for themselves.
Well it's an educational flaw. They don't really develop the student's critical analysis about many issues regarding CCP. But things will change over time as the communication systems (internet and satelite TV) strengthen to provide the Chinese people a broader perspective on the world.
Most important of all I think, is that they should identify the controversial nature of issues in student's education.
Most important of all I think, is that they should identify the controversial nature of issues in student's education.
"For example, according to a report by Howard W. French in the New York Times last December, many textbooks don't mention that anyone died at what the outside world knows as the 1989 massacre of student demonstrators near Tiananmen Square. One 1998 text notes only that "the Central Committee took action in time and restored calm." Anyone who challenges the official fiction is subject to harsh punishment, including beatings, house arrest or imprisonment.
And if the 300,000 victims of the Nanjing Massacre are slighted in some Japanese textbooks, what of the 30 million Chinese who died in famines created by Mao Zedong's lunatic Great Leap Forward between 1958 and 1962? No mention in Chinese texts; didn't happen.
Well, you might say, how a nation treats its internal history is less relevant to its qualifications for the Security Council than whether it teaches its children honestly about its wars with other nations. A dubious proposition, but no matter; as the Times found in its review of textbooks, Chinese children do not learn of their nation's invasion of Tibet (1950) or aggression against Vietnam (1979). And they are taught that Japan was defeated in World War II by Chinese Communist guerrillas; Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima and Midway don't figure in."
That's like one semester of Chinese history right there.
And if the 300,000 victims of the Nanjing Massacre are slighted in some Japanese textbooks, what of the 30 million Chinese who died in famines created by Mao Zedong's lunatic Great Leap Forward between 1958 and 1962? No mention in Chinese texts; didn't happen.
Well, you might say, how a nation treats its internal history is less relevant to its qualifications for the Security Council than whether it teaches its children honestly about its wars with other nations. A dubious proposition, but no matter; as the Times found in its review of textbooks, Chinese children do not learn of their nation's invasion of Tibet (1950) or aggression against Vietnam (1979). And they are taught that Japan was defeated in World War II by Chinese Communist guerrillas; Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima and Midway don't figure in."
That's like one semester of Chinese history right there.
Yeah right. I have a copy of your chinese textbook right here and none of that is in there.
On the other hand, I have a copy of the Japanese textbooks and they talk about comfort women and nanking massacre and other things and include pictures that have been proven fake. Japanese textbooks are using lies to prove that these events have taken place. It is only natural that these should be removed from the textbooks.
On the other hand, I have a copy of the Japanese textbooks and they talk about comfort women and nanking massacre and other things and include pictures that have been proven fake. Japanese textbooks are using lies to prove that these events have taken place. It is only natural that these should be removed from the textbooks.
Meatball youve hung yourself already.
QUOTE (Ogumo @ Apr 19 2005, 01:30 PM)
Meatball youve hung yourself already.
if you're referring to barker i agree
QUOTE (Jasel @ Apr 19 2005, 01:32 PM)
QUOTE (Ogumo @ Apr 19 2005, 01:30 PM)
Meatball youve hung yourself already.
if you're referring to barker i agree
Wait wait. I take it back. Ive just seen the "AsiaFinest is really dangerous...." thread.
2
this should be part of "Chinese have selective memory" thread.
agreed. will try to merge to that topic which is
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33759
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33759
Just a quick question to all those Chinese nationalists who demand an apology but has Mongolia ever apologized for what Genghis Khan did? Have they ever issued an apology to China for conquering and ruling them for nearly a century not to mention Russia, the Middle East, Hungary, and all other areas they viciously conquered? No in fact the Mongolians today worship and revere Genghis as a god. Why don't you Chinese see anything wrong with that? Oh that's right since GK successfully conquered China unlike Japan, the Mongol hordes are now Chinese all of a sudden 2 Atleast be thankful most Japanese today do not worship Hirohito that way.
2 Atleast be thankful most Japanese today do not worship Hirohito that way.
still not that good of a topic
the focus should be placed on the Chinese government's educational system, which encourages this "selectivity" of historical events that continually portrays China as a victim/non-agressor and other aspects that reinforces Mainlanders' fervent nationalism
the focus should be placed on the Chinese government's educational system, which encourages this "selectivity" of historical events that continually portrays China as a victim/non-agressor and other aspects that reinforces Mainlanders' fervent nationalism
QUOTE (CTM2000 @ Apr 19 2005, 11:10 PM)
Just a quick question to all those Chinese nationalists who demand an apology but has Mongolia ever apologized for what Genghis Khan did? Have they ever issued an apology to China for conquering and ruling them for nearly a century not to mention Russia, the Middle East, Hungary, and all other areas they viciously conquered? No in fact the Mongolians today worship and revere Genghis as a god. Why don't you Chinese see anything wrong with that? Oh that's right since GK successfully conquered China unlike Japan, the Mongol hordes are now Chinese all of a sudden 2 Atleast be thankful most Japanese today do not worship Hirohito that way.
2 Atleast be thankful most Japanese today do not worship Hirohito that way.can't really compare that way
back then, there were no codes of conduct to warfare; simply put, we were all freakin savages. but when it came to ww2, despite the irrationality behind even having started a war in the first place, every military had to follow a strict code of conduct to prevent the death of innocent civilians. evidently (key difference between ww2 and previous wars), the Germans and the Japanese didn't play by these rules. Now, the Germans have already apologized, therefore so must the Japanese.
QUOTE (caolucai @ Apr 19 2005, 11:21 PM)
QUOTE (CTM2000 @ Apr 19 2005, 11:10 PM)
Just a quick question to all those Chinese nationalists who demand an apology but has Mongolia ever apologized for what Genghis Khan did? Have they ever issued an apology to China for conquering and ruling them for nearly a century not to mention Russia, the Middle East, Hungary, and all other areas they viciously conquered? No in fact the Mongolians today worship and revere Genghis as a god. Why don't you Chinese see anything wrong with that? Oh that's right since GK successfully conquered China unlike Japan, the Mongol hordes are now Chinese all of a sudden 2 Atleast be thankful most Japanese today do not worship Hirohito that way.
2 Atleast be thankful most Japanese today do not worship Hirohito that way.can't really compare that way
back then, there were no codes of conduct to warfare; simply put, we were all freakin savages. but when it came to ww2, despite the irrationality behind even having started a war in the first place, every military had to follow a strict code of conduct to prevent the death of innocent civilians. evidently (key difference between ww2 and previous wars), the Germans and the Japanese didn't play by these rules. Now, the Germans have already apologized, therefore so must the Japanese.
This is something I wanted to tell the angry vietnamese that were complaining for 1000 years of Chinese rule , saying that China deserved the attrocities.
^^that logic makes no sense. They should apologize because it was wrong. The fact that Germany apologized has nothing to do with the issue. Also military's "codes of conduct" to vary from country to country. And most countries have instances of them being broken.
QUOTE (Jasel @ Apr 19 2005, 11:42 PM)
^^that logic makes no sense. They should apologize because it was wrong. The fact that Germany apologized has nothing to do with the issue. Also military's "codes of conduct" to vary from country to country. And most countries have instances of them being broken.
I think the point he was making is , during ww2 we had a sense of humanity and a code of warfare. Unlike 1000's of years ago when there basically was no rules of warfare or human rights of such. Which is why I feel it stupid for vietnamese to be comparing chinese rule over vietnam to attrocities commited during ww2. 1 it has nothing to do with each other , 2 look at the difference in time periods.
QUOTE (freefallz @ Apr 18 2005, 10:05 PM)
QUOTE (doozer3 @ Apr 18 2005, 09:02 PM)
QUOTE (Jaimu-Jaimu @ Apr 18 2005, 02:36 AM)
QUOTE
Oh sure, nothing but american propaganda against China
I just find it obvious that the American media would take the Japanese angle and make the Chinese to look unreasonable.
The American media has taken a fairly even-handed approach. Can't say the same for the PRC-controlled media or the Japanese media (to a lesser extent).
I don't think anybody can precisely pinpoint how bias the American or Chinese media would be unless you are a journalist yourself in those specific fields.
Most of the main legitimate American press is "fair" to a fault. Notwithstanding charges by conservatives that the mainstream press is "liberal", most journalists simply state the facts and almost always give both sides of the story (or at least give the other side an opportunity to explain themselves).
In addition to the mainstream press, there are also plenty of conservative "news outlets" (Fox News, Wash. Times, Wall Street Journal, NY Sun, NY Post) and to a lesser extent, liberal news sources - where the "news" has more of an editorial format.
Regardless, American media is notorious for being a thorn in any administration's side and likewise, would be seen as such, in particular by govts., not used to having such an aggressive press (probably, only the British press is more aggressive).
The Japanese media is somewhat constrained by the press clubs, which have a history of self-censorship, especially when it comes to news stories that are unfavorable to the govt.
The PRC press, while at times, have successfully circumvented govt. controll regarding a few news items - in particular, govt. corruption in the countryside - the govt. still pretty much controlls the press and media.
Pretty much every culture had some "code of warfare" although some might be more intricate then others.
QUOTE (Jasel @ Apr 19 2005, 11:54 PM)
Pretty much every culture had some "code of warfare" although some might be more intricate then others.
true...almost every culture/nation has infringed upon their own sets of conduct for warfare but the difference here is that the Japanese had a total disregard for these "rules" for their objective was to break the will/spirit of the Chinese people at their capital city <--- this is actually part of a testimony from a Japanese officerl; heard it on the History Channel
QUOTE (item1702 @ Apr 18 2005, 10:21 PM)
I don’t know I think America is a little bias against China over all, well at least in the past. Things are starting to change. I have seen an American commercial saying visit China. That was a shocker.
Of course America is a little bias in favor of Japan as well. After all it’s like what ever America says Japan does, like the saying goes it is as if they are partners in crime
Not so sure how much these biases are portrayed in the media however considering these countries have a so called “freedom of press”.
I would not be surprised that a PRC-controlled media however would be bias in the least.
Of course America is a little bias in favor of Japan as well. After all it’s like what ever America says Japan does, like the saying goes it is as if they are partners in crime
Not so sure how much these biases are portrayed in the media however considering these countries have a so called “freedom of press”.
I would not be surprised that a PRC-controlled media however would be bias in the least.
The position of the U.S. govt. does NOT equal the position of the U.S. press (which, if it does impart a POV, certainly has a wide variety).
The American press loves nothing more than to point out misdeeds, whether done by its own govt. or by foreign govts.
Whether it be Japanese textbooks, Japanese WWII atrocities, Tiananmen Square, etc. - the U.S. press dishes the dirt on everyone.
(Look at the news stories regarding the Japanese businessmen/prostitution scandal - the U.S. press not only stated the facts (made Japanese look bad), but it also stated the Chinese reaction (made Chinese look bad - possible overreaction?) - but they mitigated it by putting the Chinese reaction in CONTEXT by also giving info. regarding Japan's actions in China during WWII, and in particular, the timing - the anniversary of Japan's 1931 occupation of NE China).
Most Chinese people not only do not care that Mongolia never issued an apology many of them are even brainwashed to the point that they believe Genghis Khan was Chinese and that his conquests were based on unifying China. Wow can we talk about saving face to the maximum extreme? Going by that logic, Japanese militarism should be seen as a unifying force in Asia correct? The only reason most Chinese feel the way they do about the Mongols is because they actually succesfully conquered all of China and many of them sinicized and even today half of the horde's territory are in the hands of the CCP (Inner Mongolia) and now suddenly the Mongols are magically Chinese as well as the Manchus. Hmm which begs the question had the Japanese done the same, would they be Chinese today now too in the eyes of these delusional Chinese? Chinese textbooks and historical revisionism is by far the worst ever witnessed in this world. Chinese children are not taught about the CCP's miserable failures in the CR or the GLP. They are not taught about China's invasion of Tibet, India, and Vietnam. The CCP are responsible for so many atrocities, the reason the Chinese are so anti-Japan and US is because they need a guilty culprit to take their place and who better to blame than evil Japan right? Chinese history itself is based on imperialism either militarily or organic colonialism. In fact so many CHinese like to brag about the Sinification effect being that everyone around them got assimilated into the Chinese race. The Chinese people are responsible for more destruction of races and ethnic groups that any culture in history. Atleast Europe became independent after the fall of the Romans. Atleast Alexander's empire, Genghis Khan's empire fell apart within a generation, ever since China was unified, more ethnic groups and peoples have been subjugated than anyone in history. I wouldn't mind if the Japanese government apologized hell I wouldn't mind if they even paid reparations just as long as the CCP decides to apologize to the Tibetans and Inner Mongolians and Uighurs, repay them for occupation, and give them back their lands.
The world during 1940 didn't work the way it did during the 1200's. Your a idiot for even trying to compare ww2 war crimes and gengis khan's conquest.
CTM2000, you should do a bit more research on the conflict in regards to China and Vietnam. I personally think they are two very different situations in terms of military occupation.
Barker, you said that you have both the Chinese textbook and the Japanese textbook. Just curious, how many languages do you know how to speak and read? Chinese writings are hella hard to learn you know, especially for a high level history text.
How come China still denies the rape of Tibet? The rape of nanking was written by a Chinese michael moore, Iris chang, whose parents were from China. It is full of errors and exaggerates with racist comments. I am really offended by how she portrayed the Japanese as a bunch of rabid rapists. My Taiwanese grandfather told me that the Japanese were nothing like that, especially the ones he served with in WW2
QUOTE (MasaoTakashi @ Apr 20 2005, 04:22 PM)
How come China still denies the rape of Tibet? The rape of nanking was written by a Chinese michael moore, Iris chang, whose parents were from China. It is full of errors and exaggerates with racist comments. I am really offended by how she portrayed the Japanese as a bunch of rabid rapists. My Taiwanese grandfather told me that the Japanese were nothing like that, especially the ones he served with in WW2
Interesting...
Still having fun trolling around Taipeirot? =)
look at this taiwanese fu-k, just so anti-china and suckin up to japan, using a japanese name "masao"... feel fu-kin embarassed man, do you even have your own country? does taiwan really deserve to exist?
not that i approve of china's acts tho, don't get me wrong. the PRC's gotta be the most ridiculous regime of 20th century, and fu-kin free tibet, uighur-xinjiang, and manchuria. But they did suffer from j@p imperialism, and taiwan should shut its fu-kin mouth about that.
what is up with taiwan? i personally don't recognize it as a country, not that i think greedy china should take it, but it just isn't. They dont really have an identity, so they stick to china or japan whenever convenient. When it comes to WW2, they' fu-kin Japanese, then again they're so fu-kin busy considering themselves "the real chinese republic" and every taiwanese fu-k claims direct mainland ancestry, then again when they're confronted with anti-chinese feelings they are so "taiwanese" and so "not chinese!".
give me fu-kin break. Already your chiang kai-shek cronies don't deserve respect, now don't come in and fu-kin defend japan just cuz the PRC hate em, please. you japanese? wapanese? who the fu-k are you?
not that i approve of china's acts tho, don't get me wrong. the PRC's gotta be the most ridiculous regime of 20th century, and fu-kin free tibet, uighur-xinjiang, and manchuria. But they did suffer from j@p imperialism, and taiwan should shut its fu-kin mouth about that.
what is up with taiwan? i personally don't recognize it as a country, not that i think greedy china should take it, but it just isn't. They dont really have an identity, so they stick to china or japan whenever convenient. When it comes to WW2, they' fu-kin Japanese, then again they're so fu-kin busy considering themselves "the real chinese republic" and every taiwanese fu-k claims direct mainland ancestry, then again when they're confronted with anti-chinese feelings they are so "taiwanese" and so "not chinese!".
give me fu-kin break. Already your chiang kai-shek cronies don't deserve respect, now don't come in and fu-kin defend japan just cuz the PRC hate em, please. you japanese? wapanese? who the fu-k are you?
QUOTE (hi-head @ Apr 22 2005, 12:48 AM)
look at this taiwanese fu-k, just so anti-china and suckin up to japan, using a japanese name "masao"... feel fu-kin embarassed man, do you even have your own country? does taiwan really deserve to exist?
not that i approve of china's acts tho, don't get me wrong. the PRC's gotta be the most ridiculous regime of 20th century, and fu-kin free tibet, uighur-xinjiang, and manchuria. But they did suffer from j@p imperialism, and taiwan should shut its fu-kin mouth about that.
what is up with taiwan? i personally don't recognize it as a country, not that i think greedy china should take it, but it just isn't. They dont really have an identity, so they stick to china or japan whenever convenient. When it comes to WW2, they' fu-kin Japanese, then again they're so fu-kin busy considering themselves "the real chinese republic" and every taiwanese fu-k claims direct mainland ancestry, then again when they're confronted with anti-chinese feelings they are so "taiwanese" and so "not chinese!".
give me fu-kin break. Already your chiang kai-shek cronies don't deserve respect, now don't come in and fu-kin defend japan just cuz the PRC hate em, please. you japanese? wapanese? who the fu-k are you?
not that i approve of china's acts tho, don't get me wrong. the PRC's gotta be the most ridiculous regime of 20th century, and fu-kin free tibet, uighur-xinjiang, and manchuria. But they did suffer from j@p imperialism, and taiwan should shut its fu-kin mouth about that.
what is up with taiwan? i personally don't recognize it as a country, not that i think greedy china should take it, but it just isn't. They dont really have an identity, so they stick to china or japan whenever convenient. When it comes to WW2, they' fu-kin Japanese, then again they're so fu-kin busy considering themselves "the real chinese republic" and every taiwanese fu-k claims direct mainland ancestry, then again when they're confronted with anti-chinese feelings they are so "taiwanese" and so "not chinese!".
give me fu-kin break. Already your chiang kai-shek cronies don't deserve respect, now don't come in and fu-kin defend japan just cuz the PRC hate em, please. you japanese? wapanese? who the fu-k are you?
And who the fu-k are you to judge who Taiwanese are? yeah China did suffer from Japan's imperialism so what does that have to do with Taiwan , don't take your anger on Taiwan you stupid fu-k. Taiwan is a country so suck it up and get used to it. Quit being a little b!tch always trying to point fingers cause your country is fu-ked up.
then how come www.xanga.com/the_rightway aka barkerintokyo says the opposite?
It’s very sad to know that this is how history is being taught in China…
Let’s talk about the “class A” war criminals shall we? This is what Niel McDonald has to say about the war trials after WWII:
A Legacy of Issues
The Tokyo Trial has raised many questions. It has been argued that, "The rules of evidence at the Tokyo Trial functioned to facilitate the prosecution and impede the defence".60It was stated at the London Conference, "that it is for the Tribunal to decide whether the evidence has value in the direction of proof even though a national code may not allow proof in that form".61
The indictment was only concerned with the acts of Japanese individuals regardless of similar infringements committed by the victorious nations. Any reference to these matters was deemed inadmissible evidence.62 The Soviet Union had declared war against Japan thus breaking an existing treaty and were guilty of crimes against peace.63The dropping of two atomic bombs should have found the Americans guilty of crimes against humanity.64
Arguably, "[at] Tokyo there were five justices (of eleven) to whom exception might have been taken for one reason or another".65 The Chinese justice was a politician not a judge in his own country. The Russian justice could speak neither English, nor Japanese, the official languages of the Trial. The Filipino justice, who claimed the sentences were not severe enough, had been a prisoner of war for most of the war and had been a survivor of the famous "Bataan death march".66 The second American justice, Major General Myron H. Cramer had previously submitted to President Roosevelt, a legal document concerning the responsibility for the attack on Pearl Harbour. Finally, President Webb had been the "Australian war crimes commissioner" and during the war had "investigated Japanese war crimes on New Guinea".67
Given the standing of the defendants and the severity of the charges, the primary question remains why had Emperor Hirohito not been indicted and why had he not been called to give testimony? Twenty-three men in his service were found guilty of conspiracy to wage war, when surely Hirohito was responsible. "A record was made of the statement in which the Emperor informed Japan of his decision to capitulate. When that imperial decision was broadcast, the whole of Japan knew that the war was over".68
Justice Webb stated, "[t]he authority of the Emperor was proved beyond question when he ended the war....".69At the beginning of January 1946 a secret order was circulated from the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff stating that the Emperor was not to be indicted or called as a witness.70 It was later discovered in 1949, that the "U.S. State Department added [on] January 14 that all 11of Japan's enemies, including Russia, agreed to exempt Hirohito to facilitate Japan's surrender and occupation of the country".71
In reference to the question of conspiracy, Takayanagi quoted the western legal scholar Francis B. Sayre in saying"[i]t is a doctrine as anomalous and provincial as it is unhappy in its results. It is utterly unknown to the Roman Law; it is not found in modern Continental codes; few Continental lawyers ever heard of it. Furthermore, Sayre argues that, "[u]nder such a principle everyone who acts in cooperation with another may some day find his liberty dependant upon the innate prejudices or social bias of an unknown judge. It is the very antithesis of justice according to law".72
Hirota and Shigemitsu had always advocated" Asia for the Asians" by implementing diplomatic and economic policies not military force. Without a Hitler, organisations like the S.S. or the Gestapo, where was the evidence of a conspiracy?
The final judgement took seven months to write and consisted of 664 pages. This was written by a majority of seven justices from Canada, China, New Zealand, the Philippines, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom and the United States.73 The majority had not been deliberated among the 11 justices "they just decided among themselves to write the judgement".74 After the majority had completed the judgement, they presented it to the remaining four justices, Bernard, Pal, Roling and Webb. Both Pal and Roling saw this as a "serious violation" of the Charter.75
Three justices wrote separate dissenting opinions, Henry Bernard from France, Radhabinod Pal from India and B.V.A Roling from the Netherlands. Sir William Webb from Australia also wrote a separate opinion. Bernard "dissented on two procedural grounds and on the ground that the Japanese Emperor had not been indicted".76
Furthermore, he stated "[a] verdict reached by a tribunal after a defective procedure cannot be a valid one".77Pal dissented on several grounds, firstly, that "no conspiracy had been proved; rules of evidence had been slanted in favour of the prosecution; aggressive war was not a crime in international law; even the conventional war crimes had not been proved".78
Pal argued that all the defendants were innocent on all charges and therefore, should be acquitted.79 Roling did not agree with the death sentence for Hirota, he argued that he "had not been proven guilty on any charge".80 He argued that Oka, Sato and Shimada, all military men, "should have been sentenced to death instead of life imprisonment".81 Finally, he argued that "one military man: Hata, and three politicians, Kido, Shigemitsu and Toga....should instead have been acquitted".82 Webb was against the death penalty and argued that the Tribunal could not justify the guilt of some of the Emperors closest advisers when he himself was not indicted or called on to testify.83
It was not until 1977, that the whole judgement of the Tokyo Tribunal was published by B.V.A. Roling, and R. F. Rutter. This included the majority judgement, the three dissenting opinions by Bernard (France), Pal (India) and Roling (the Netherlands), the separate opinion by President Webb (Australia) and the concurring opinion of Jaranilla(the Philippines). This is in contrast to the forty-two volumes that have been published by the British and Americans in French and English on the Nuremberg Tribunal.84
The lack of access to the total Trial documents until 1977 may suggest an element of shame as to the outcome of the Tribunals. It may also disguise a fear that the precedent set at these trials was potentially dangerous to individual rights. Furthermore, any country that had waged a war between 1945 and 1977 could, by precedent, be indicted by a similar Tribunal.
There have been no prosecutions for the crime against peace since the Nuremberg and Tokyo Trials in 1945. Nevertheless, "there have been about thirty international wars and more than a hundred civil wars".85 How can we justify the Tokyo Charter that sentenced career diplomats to death supposedly for conspiracy, when the question of command responsibility by the American military in Vietnam has been swept under the premise of "victors justice".
It is my opinion that the Tokyo Tribunal was a classic case of "victors vengeance". This is demonstrated in so many circumstances related to the trial, including inconsistent rules of evidence, ex post facto or retroactive legislation, failure to indict the Emperor, the flimsy charge of conspiracy, exception to five of the justices, individual responsibility, no acquittals and the contrast to international law.
This was a political show piece, a sham, a demonstration of the might and power of the victorious nations. The precedent was constructed in defiance of international law for the purpose of retribution. These trials were conducted to demonstrate that crime does not pay. All they have shown is that the victor is in the most commanding position to determine the course of history.
You cannot seriously use the war criminal labels as proof that Japan had committed war crimes. The Japanese defendants didn’t have lawyers and they weren’t allowed to defend themselves. The Chinese war tribunals killed almost every single Japanese person who was indicted (for breaking laws that didn’t exist). Never was any evidence provided; if one Chinese witness said they were a victim, the Japanese soldier would be found guilty. These trials don’t prove anything.
You mention that China is not the only country that disapproves of Japan's current actions. However, PRC, China, and HK are all the same country. Along with South Korea, you only mentioned two countries, niether of which has free education systems. China teaches its children to hate Japan and continue to indoctrinate Chinese adults through constant anti-Japanese propaganda. Taiwanese were educated by the Nationalists who employed a systematic anti-Japanese education. The Taiwanese under the democratic Japanese education learned to love order. As a result, they learned to like the Japanese occupation as well. Civilians weren’t killed systematically in Taiwan, once the soldiers who resisted the Japanese occupation had been defeated, the Taiwanese people were fairly cooperative. This was probably because in their hearts, they despised the former Chinese rule and were aware of the law and order that existed in Japan. The Nationalists did not bring democracy to Taiwan, they took it away from Taiwan. They lost their freedom of speech, they lost their rights, and they were systematically killed in the “White Terrorism.” The 2.28 Incident shows the Taiwanese resentment.
If the reason why you think Japan should not join the UNSC is because Japan does not atone for its war crimes, then maybe you should read what Americans have to say about this issue. The Chinese whitewash and outright lie about their history much much more than what Japan is accused for. I gave one example in a past post.
Oh and apologies. Chinese people have not been educated properly, so they are not aware of Japan’s INCREDIBLE donations of ODA to the Chinese as a direct apology for WWII actions. Also, they haven’t heard about any of these.
It’s very sad to know that this is how history is being taught in China…
Let’s talk about the “class A” war criminals shall we? This is what Niel McDonald has to say about the war trials after WWII:
A Legacy of Issues
The Tokyo Trial has raised many questions. It has been argued that, "The rules of evidence at the Tokyo Trial functioned to facilitate the prosecution and impede the defence".60It was stated at the London Conference, "that it is for the Tribunal to decide whether the evidence has value in the direction of proof even though a national code may not allow proof in that form".61
The indictment was only concerned with the acts of Japanese individuals regardless of similar infringements committed by the victorious nations. Any reference to these matters was deemed inadmissible evidence.62 The Soviet Union had declared war against Japan thus breaking an existing treaty and were guilty of crimes against peace.63The dropping of two atomic bombs should have found the Americans guilty of crimes against humanity.64
Arguably, "[at] Tokyo there were five justices (of eleven) to whom exception might have been taken for one reason or another".65 The Chinese justice was a politician not a judge in his own country. The Russian justice could speak neither English, nor Japanese, the official languages of the Trial. The Filipino justice, who claimed the sentences were not severe enough, had been a prisoner of war for most of the war and had been a survivor of the famous "Bataan death march".66 The second American justice, Major General Myron H. Cramer had previously submitted to President Roosevelt, a legal document concerning the responsibility for the attack on Pearl Harbour. Finally, President Webb had been the "Australian war crimes commissioner" and during the war had "investigated Japanese war crimes on New Guinea".67
Given the standing of the defendants and the severity of the charges, the primary question remains why had Emperor Hirohito not been indicted and why had he not been called to give testimony? Twenty-three men in his service were found guilty of conspiracy to wage war, when surely Hirohito was responsible. "A record was made of the statement in which the Emperor informed Japan of his decision to capitulate. When that imperial decision was broadcast, the whole of Japan knew that the war was over".68
Justice Webb stated, "[t]he authority of the Emperor was proved beyond question when he ended the war....".69At the beginning of January 1946 a secret order was circulated from the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff stating that the Emperor was not to be indicted or called as a witness.70 It was later discovered in 1949, that the "U.S. State Department added [on] January 14 that all 11of Japan's enemies, including Russia, agreed to exempt Hirohito to facilitate Japan's surrender and occupation of the country".71
In reference to the question of conspiracy, Takayanagi quoted the western legal scholar Francis B. Sayre in saying"[i]t is a doctrine as anomalous and provincial as it is unhappy in its results. It is utterly unknown to the Roman Law; it is not found in modern Continental codes; few Continental lawyers ever heard of it. Furthermore, Sayre argues that, "[u]nder such a principle everyone who acts in cooperation with another may some day find his liberty dependant upon the innate prejudices or social bias of an unknown judge. It is the very antithesis of justice according to law".72
Hirota and Shigemitsu had always advocated" Asia for the Asians" by implementing diplomatic and economic policies not military force. Without a Hitler, organisations like the S.S. or the Gestapo, where was the evidence of a conspiracy?
The final judgement took seven months to write and consisted of 664 pages. This was written by a majority of seven justices from Canada, China, New Zealand, the Philippines, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom and the United States.73 The majority had not been deliberated among the 11 justices "they just decided among themselves to write the judgement".74 After the majority had completed the judgement, they presented it to the remaining four justices, Bernard, Pal, Roling and Webb. Both Pal and Roling saw this as a "serious violation" of the Charter.75
Three justices wrote separate dissenting opinions, Henry Bernard from France, Radhabinod Pal from India and B.V.A Roling from the Netherlands. Sir William Webb from Australia also wrote a separate opinion. Bernard "dissented on two procedural grounds and on the ground that the Japanese Emperor had not been indicted".76
Furthermore, he stated "[a] verdict reached by a tribunal after a defective procedure cannot be a valid one".77Pal dissented on several grounds, firstly, that "no conspiracy had been proved; rules of evidence had been slanted in favour of the prosecution; aggressive war was not a crime in international law; even the conventional war crimes had not been proved".78
Pal argued that all the defendants were innocent on all charges and therefore, should be acquitted.79 Roling did not agree with the death sentence for Hirota, he argued that he "had not been proven guilty on any charge".80 He argued that Oka, Sato and Shimada, all military men, "should have been sentenced to death instead of life imprisonment".81 Finally, he argued that "one military man: Hata, and three politicians, Kido, Shigemitsu and Toga....should instead have been acquitted".82 Webb was against the death penalty and argued that the Tribunal could not justify the guilt of some of the Emperors closest advisers when he himself was not indicted or called on to testify.83
It was not until 1977, that the whole judgement of the Tokyo Tribunal was published by B.V.A. Roling, and R. F. Rutter. This included the majority judgement, the three dissenting opinions by Bernard (France), Pal (India) and Roling (the Netherlands), the separate opinion by President Webb (Australia) and the concurring opinion of Jaranilla(the Philippines). This is in contrast to the forty-two volumes that have been published by the British and Americans in French and English on the Nuremberg Tribunal.84
The lack of access to the total Trial documents until 1977 may suggest an element of shame as to the outcome of the Tribunals. It may also disguise a fear that the precedent set at these trials was potentially dangerous to individual rights. Furthermore, any country that had waged a war between 1945 and 1977 could, by precedent, be indicted by a similar Tribunal.
There have been no prosecutions for the crime against peace since the Nuremberg and Tokyo Trials in 1945. Nevertheless, "there have been about thirty international wars and more than a hundred civil wars".85 How can we justify the Tokyo Charter that sentenced career diplomats to death supposedly for conspiracy, when the question of command responsibility by the American military in Vietnam has been swept under the premise of "victors justice".
It is my opinion that the Tokyo Tribunal was a classic case of "victors vengeance". This is demonstrated in so many circumstances related to the trial, including inconsistent rules of evidence, ex post facto or retroactive legislation, failure to indict the Emperor, the flimsy charge of conspiracy, exception to five of the justices, individual responsibility, no acquittals and the contrast to international law.
This was a political show piece, a sham, a demonstration of the might and power of the victorious nations. The precedent was constructed in defiance of international law for the purpose of retribution. These trials were conducted to demonstrate that crime does not pay. All they have shown is that the victor is in the most commanding position to determine the course of history.
You cannot seriously use the war criminal labels as proof that Japan had committed war crimes. The Japanese defendants didn’t have lawyers and they weren’t allowed to defend themselves. The Chinese war tribunals killed almost every single Japanese person who was indicted (for breaking laws that didn’t exist). Never was any evidence provided; if one Chinese witness said they were a victim, the Japanese soldier would be found guilty. These trials don’t prove anything.
You mention that China is not the only country that disapproves of Japan's current actions. However, PRC, China, and HK are all the same country. Along with South Korea, you only mentioned two countries, niether of which has free education systems. China teaches its children to hate Japan and continue to indoctrinate Chinese adults through constant anti-Japanese propaganda. Taiwanese were educated by the Nationalists who employed a systematic anti-Japanese education. The Taiwanese under the democratic Japanese education learned to love order. As a result, they learned to like the Japanese occupation as well. Civilians weren’t killed systematically in Taiwan, once the soldiers who resisted the Japanese occupation had been defeated, the Taiwanese people were fairly cooperative. This was probably because in their hearts, they despised the former Chinese rule and were aware of the law and order that existed in Japan. The Nationalists did not bring democracy to Taiwan, they took it away from Taiwan. They lost their freedom of speech, they lost their rights, and they were systematically killed in the “White Terrorism.” The 2.28 Incident shows the Taiwanese resentment.
If the reason why you think Japan should not join the UNSC is because Japan does not atone for its war crimes, then maybe you should read what Americans have to say about this issue. The Chinese whitewash and outright lie about their history much much more than what Japan is accused for. I gave one example in a past post.
Oh and apologies. Chinese people have not been educated properly, so they are not aware of Japan’s INCREDIBLE donations of ODA to the Chinese as a direct apology for WWII actions. Also, they haven’t heard about any of these.
QUOTE (hi-head @ Apr 22 2005, 12:48 AM)
look at this taiwanese fu-k, just so anti-china and suckin up to japan, using a japanese name "masao"... feel fu-kin embarassed man, do you even have your own country? does taiwan really deserve to exist?
not that i approve of china's acts tho, don't get me wrong. the PRC's gotta be the most ridiculous regime of 20th century, and fu-kin free tibet, uighur-xinjiang, and manchuria. But they did suffer from j@p imperialism, and taiwan should shut its fu-kin mouth about that.
what is up with taiwan? i personally don't recognize it as a country, not that i think greedy china should take it, but it just isn't. They dont really have an identity, so they stick to china or japan whenever convenient. When it comes to WW2, they' fu-kin Japanese, then again they're so fu-kin busy considering themselves "the real chinese republic" and every taiwanese fu-k claims direct mainland ancestry, then again when they're confronted with anti-chinese feelings they are so "taiwanese" and so "not chinese!".
give me fu-kin break. Already your chiang kai-shek cronies don't deserve respect, now don't come in and fu-kin defend japan just cuz the PRC hate em, please. you japanese? wapanese? who the fu-k are you?
not that i approve of china's acts tho, don't get me wrong. the PRC's gotta be the most ridiculous regime of 20th century, and fu-kin free tibet, uighur-xinjiang, and manchuria. But they did suffer from j@p imperialism, and taiwan should shut its fu-kin mouth about that.
what is up with taiwan? i personally don't recognize it as a country, not that i think greedy china should take it, but it just isn't. They dont really have an identity, so they stick to china or japan whenever convenient. When it comes to WW2, they' fu-kin Japanese, then again they're so fu-kin busy considering themselves "the real chinese republic" and every taiwanese fu-k claims direct mainland ancestry, then again when they're confronted with anti-chinese feelings they are so "taiwanese" and so "not chinese!".
give me fu-kin break. Already your chiang kai-shek cronies don't deserve respect, now don't come in and fu-kin defend japan just cuz the PRC hate em, please. you japanese? wapanese? who the fu-k are you?
man...you seriously need to redirect your hatred somewhere else cuz you aren't making any sense...have to read up some more on the issue before taking on this kind of attitude
Chinese people have engrained in their minds that Taiwan is part of China and Taiwanese people asserting their own unique heritage and culture is an insubordination, which is why the Chinese hate Taiwanese. China currently aims nuclear missiles at the Taiwanese island and America classifies the Taiwan Straight as the area most likely to have a nuclear war.
Taiwanese people also experience Japanese occupation, just like Manchuria. Taiwanese people know what happened in colonies of Japan. Their testimonies are just as credible as the Chinese. Then why do Chinese outright deny what the Taiwanese say about Japan? Because it goes against their foreign/domestic policy to make Japan lose face.
What I'd like to say is, hear what the Taiwanese people have to say too. Because they're just as credible and entitled to their views as well.
Taiwanese people also experience Japanese occupation, just like Manchuria. Taiwanese people know what happened in colonies of Japan. Their testimonies are just as credible as the Chinese. Then why do Chinese outright deny what the Taiwanese say about Japan? Because it goes against their foreign/domestic policy to make Japan lose face.
What I'd like to say is, hear what the Taiwanese people have to say too. Because they're just as credible and entitled to their views as well.
I am Taiwanese and I think Japan has made the world a better place by occupying us.
QUOTE (barkerintokyo @ Apr 22 2005, 06:04 PM)
Chinese people have engrained in their minds that Taiwan is part of China and Taiwanese people asserting their own unique heritage and culture is an insubordination, which is why the Chinese hate Taiwanese. China currently aims nuclear missiles at the Taiwanese island and America classifies the Taiwan Straight as the area most likely to have a nuclear war.
Taiwanese people also experience Japanese occupation, just like Manchuria. Taiwanese people know what happened in colonies of Japan. Their testimonies are just as credible as the Chinese. Then why do Chinese outright deny what the Taiwanese say about Japan? Because it goes against their foreign/domestic policy to make Japan lose face.
What I'd like to say is, hear what the Taiwanese people have to say too. Because they're just as credible and entitled to their views as well.
Taiwanese people also experience Japanese occupation, just like Manchuria. Taiwanese people know what happened in colonies of Japan. Their testimonies are just as credible as the Chinese. Then why do Chinese outright deny what the Taiwanese say about Japan? Because it goes against their foreign/domestic policy to make Japan lose face.
What I'd like to say is, hear what the Taiwanese people have to say too. Because they're just as credible and entitled to their views as well.
Proof the nuclear missile part Barker, i've never heard of that!
There's this common notion that people who were educated in China did not received a proper education on some of the history courses. So I suppose that must mean you have? I'd have to say this is likewise for everyone else in any other country if you want to argue about this. Unfortunately education will always be shaped by the nation's own sense of righteousness, and for Japan it places them in a difficult situation among the international community due to their position in WW2. Real history constitutes everything that have occurred in the past and I hope one day those facts can be accessed on the internet by everyone. As of the current historical database, there definitely appears to be more information directed to villify Japan on the issue of the second world war. So on the balance of probability we are lead to believe such incidents did take place in reality. Also we have to remember how many of the participants in this forum were actually educated in their native country (eg in China), keeping in mind that the motive behind the pointing of fingers are sympathised by nations who have suffered under the Japanese assault. From a pragmatic point of view, I am not not all be surprised by the delight shown on the Japanese occupation. Who knows, maybe Germany (if they won the war) could have improved the living standards in some of its occupying countries and there were places where people there enjoyed their occupation. But too bad we didn't give them a chance to show it further(a bit unfair isn't it?).
BT, I wouldn't use the word insubordination to describe what the mainlanders (in your described case) feel towards Taiwanese. I can see you are using logical assumptions to conclude such 'effect', which is healthy, but to be honest 'insubordination' doesn't do the justice at all to convey thoughts of incongrueity between the mainlanders and Taiwanese. They may be people in China who feel this way; to have someone in another region subordinating to them. But those are just, excuse my languange, downright idiots. Subsequently it doesn't take one to recognise Taiwan as a part China to have necessarily been exposed to the Chinese 'propaganda' education system.
BT, I wouldn't use the word insubordination to describe what the mainlanders (in your described case) feel towards Taiwanese. I can see you are using logical assumptions to conclude such 'effect', which is healthy, but to be honest 'insubordination' doesn't do the justice at all to convey thoughts of incongrueity between the mainlanders and Taiwanese. They may be people in China who feel this way; to have someone in another region subordinating to them. But those are just, excuse my languange, downright idiots. Subsequently it doesn't take one to recognise Taiwan as a part China to have necessarily been exposed to the Chinese 'propaganda' education system.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Apr22.html
QUOTE
In a museum film, Pearl Harbor is described as a "battle for Japan's survival," while one exhibit blames the 1937 Nanjing Massacre -- in which Chinese officials say Japanese soldiers slaughtered 300,000 people -- on the Chinese leaders who fled the city while ordering their men to fight to the death. After the fall of Nanjing to the Japanese, the museum notes, "the Chinese citizens were once again able to live their lives in peace."
"Individuals and people have their own respective views on history, culture and tradition," said Takao Fuji, an influential lawmaker from Japan's ruling Liberal Democratic Party who attended the ceremony. "We are worshiping here with a pure heart, and we would like neighboring countries such as China and South Korea to understand that."
Leading analysts concede that the new thinking has opened the door for revisionist views of Japanese history. Newspaper editorials and best-selling books in Japan have extolled the nation's early military expansion, particularly the victory in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905 that launched Japan as a global power. Tokyo's popular governor, Shintaro Ishihara, remarked two years ago that the Korean people "chose" to be annexed by Japan. "You may call it colonialism," he said, "but it was carried out in the most developed and humane manner."
There is no question, analysts say, that China and the two Koreas have periodically used anti-Japanese propaganda as a tool to stoke nationalist flames and deflect public wrath from their leaders. Japan, many here note, has done far more to clear the air of history than China, whose textbooks still neglect the massive human rights abuses committed by the ruling Communist Party.
But many say Japan is also undergoing a surge of nationalism.
But critics describe the shrine and its adjacent museum as being anything but a symbol of peace. Here, World War II is instead called "the Greater East Asian War," while the invasion of China is described as "the China Incident." The adjacent museum, which moved to an expanded new building in 2003, displays the short sword used by Gen. Korechika Anami -- who advocated a continuation of the war after the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- to commit suicide at dawn on Aug. 15, 1945, the day Japan surrendered.
A film at the museum asks visitors to ponder the following statement: "The soldiers fought for the nation. Can you say they did a bad thing?"
"Individuals and people have their own respective views on history, culture and tradition," said Takao Fuji, an influential lawmaker from Japan's ruling Liberal Democratic Party who attended the ceremony. "We are worshiping here with a pure heart, and we would like neighboring countries such as China and South Korea to understand that."
Leading analysts concede that the new thinking has opened the door for revisionist views of Japanese history. Newspaper editorials and best-selling books in Japan have extolled the nation's early military expansion, particularly the victory in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905 that launched Japan as a global power. Tokyo's popular governor, Shintaro Ishihara, remarked two years ago that the Korean people "chose" to be annexed by Japan. "You may call it colonialism," he said, "but it was carried out in the most developed and humane manner."
There is no question, analysts say, that China and the two Koreas have periodically used anti-Japanese propaganda as a tool to stoke nationalist flames and deflect public wrath from their leaders. Japan, many here note, has done far more to clear the air of history than China, whose textbooks still neglect the massive human rights abuses committed by the ruling Communist Party.
But many say Japan is also undergoing a surge of nationalism.
But critics describe the shrine and its adjacent museum as being anything but a symbol of peace. Here, World War II is instead called "the Greater East Asian War," while the invasion of China is described as "the China Incident." The adjacent museum, which moved to an expanded new building in 2003, displays the short sword used by Gen. Korechika Anami -- who advocated a continuation of the war after the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- to commit suicide at dawn on Aug. 15, 1945, the day Japan surrendered.
A film at the museum asks visitors to ponder the following statement: "The soldiers fought for the nation. Can you say they did a bad thing?"
I agree wholeheatedly with everything that that article said.
Pearl Harbor was a "battle for Japan's survival." Americans are starting to teach that in their own schools as well.
Chiang Kai-shek did leave Nanking and force their remaining soldiers to continue fighting. There is enough evidence that shows that once the soldiers surrendered or were taken as POWs, the civilians enjoyed a more orderly life.
Takao Fuji is entitled to practice Shinto and is entitled to honor war dead at Yasukuni. Americans honor their war dead as well. What do you think Arlington Cemetary is?
Ishihara Shintaro is right when he said that the Koreans willingly accepted Japanese colonization. However, he failed to be specific when. Of course, at first, the Koreans bore hatred of the Japanese, their mother country was China. However, once the Japanese ruled Korea for a long period of time, with much resistence, the Koreans eventually called for their own annexation by Japan. One of the bestsellers in Korea at the time before Japan's annexation of Korea was a book calling for the Japanese to annex Korea.
Japan IS experiencing patriotism. Nationalism and patriotism are the same thing except to different degrees and "nationalism" has a negative connotation. However, a country without patriotism is a dead country. Patriotism is a good thing anywhere. Japan NOT having patriotism was even more eery and sad. Things may be changing, but here in Tokyo, I'm not seeing any difference.
Critics do describe the museum as "anything but a symbol of peace." But that's what critics do, by definition. I've visited Yasukuni Shrine and its adjacent museum many times and whenever I see that museum, I get very very sad at what the Japanese government did during WWII. It makes me very sad that young Japanese, Taiwanese, and Koreans fought for the Greater East Asia War (which Chinese people have taken the liberty of adding a negative connotation to but in actuality, contains no negative denotations) and lost their lives for it. There are several rooms dedicated to those that died. There are wills on display and reading them makes you very sad. These young people tell their family that they don't want to die, but they must, for the sake of their country.
The soldiers who died for the country during WWII did nothing wrong. They had pure hearts that loved their country. Yasukuni shrine merely tries to remember those that died. In one of the first rooms of the museum, they play a movie. It is a very sad movie that tells the plight of the Japanese youth, as well as the Taiwanese and the Koreans who also fought valiantly for a country that wasn't truly their own. This museum does nothing to "beautify" or "whitewash" history. I urge Chinese people to actually visit this museum and see for themselves what's on display. You'll be shocked to see how liberal it is.
However, the Chinese war memorials that were created by the hundred since the 80s does nothing but beautify what the Communists did during the war and paint black, the actions of the Japanese army and government. They blatantly ignore all evidence that shows the wonderful actions of the Japanese in Manchuria, Korea, and Taiwan. Only ONE textbook passes an EXAM and China and Korea become infuriated. It doesn't even mean schools are gonna use it. However, when China's government writes its own textbooks full of lies, Japan is dead silent. None of this makes sense...
Pearl Harbor was a "battle for Japan's survival." Americans are starting to teach that in their own schools as well.
Chiang Kai-shek did leave Nanking and force their remaining soldiers to continue fighting. There is enough evidence that shows that once the soldiers surrendered or were taken as POWs, the civilians enjoyed a more orderly life.
Takao Fuji is entitled to practice Shinto and is entitled to honor war dead at Yasukuni. Americans honor their war dead as well. What do you think Arlington Cemetary is?
Ishihara Shintaro is right when he said that the Koreans willingly accepted Japanese colonization. However, he failed to be specific when. Of course, at first, the Koreans bore hatred of the Japanese, their mother country was China. However, once the Japanese ruled Korea for a long period of time, with much resistence, the Koreans eventually called for their own annexation by Japan. One of the bestsellers in Korea at the time before Japan's annexation of Korea was a book calling for the Japanese to annex Korea.
Japan IS experiencing patriotism. Nationalism and patriotism are the same thing except to different degrees and "nationalism" has a negative connotation. However, a country without patriotism is a dead country. Patriotism is a good thing anywhere. Japan NOT having patriotism was even more eery and sad. Things may be changing, but here in Tokyo, I'm not seeing any difference.
Critics do describe the museum as "anything but a symbol of peace." But that's what critics do, by definition. I've visited Yasukuni Shrine and its adjacent museum many times and whenever I see that museum, I get very very sad at what the Japanese government did during WWII. It makes me very sad that young Japanese, Taiwanese, and Koreans fought for the Greater East Asia War (which Chinese people have taken the liberty of adding a negative connotation to but in actuality, contains no negative denotations) and lost their lives for it. There are several rooms dedicated to those that died. There are wills on display and reading them makes you very sad. These young people tell their family that they don't want to die, but they must, for the sake of their country.
The soldiers who died for the country during WWII did nothing wrong. They had pure hearts that loved their country. Yasukuni shrine merely tries to remember those that died. In one of the first rooms of the museum, they play a movie. It is a very sad movie that tells the plight of the Japanese youth, as well as the Taiwanese and the Koreans who also fought valiantly for a country that wasn't truly their own. This museum does nothing to "beautify" or "whitewash" history. I urge Chinese people to actually visit this museum and see for themselves what's on display. You'll be shocked to see how liberal it is.
However, the Chinese war memorials that were created by the hundred since the 80s does nothing but beautify what the Communists did during the war and paint black, the actions of the Japanese army and government. They blatantly ignore all evidence that shows the wonderful actions of the Japanese in Manchuria, Korea, and Taiwan. Only ONE textbook passes an EXAM and China and Korea become infuriated. It doesn't even mean schools are gonna use it. However, when China's government writes its own textbooks full of lies, Japan is dead silent. None of this makes sense...
What a big show....
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