http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4453055.stm

I have no comment.

Oh, and I'm not too sure if it belongs here or in the Chinese section, I figured both.

But seeing as how people will migrate here anyway, probably, I might as well not x-post.

what's that called? freedom of speech? why should our government stop our people from protesting? the Japanese need to learn

Protests are healthy signs of public initiative taken to show that they're aware of what is going on in the world. As long as the demonstrations are in an orderly/law abiding fashion then why should the native government intervene? You'd imagine the officials would have learnt their lesson from the Tiananment square massacre.

If someone hit my car simply because it was Japanese, they would get the biggest @$$ whooping ever.

^And what if some group hit your car? How would you go about to @$$ whoop them?


Anyway that's violence, it is not acceptable in ANY protest.

Anyone is allowed to protest, a PEACEFUL protest.

You are allowed to do sit-ins, boycotts, etc. You can fast, self-flagellate (though it is not recommended), but you ARE NOT allowed to hurt others and destroy other people's property and break the law.

China has a responsibility to police illegal activities. Policing illegal activities is NOT repressing freedom of speech. What's happening in China isn't even a protest anymore. They are just riots. And riots need to be surpressed.

These sort of protests have happened in the past under any number of authoritarian government when another race has been pinpointed as an "enemy".

No way would the Chinese government make any substantial effort to stop violent protests that co-incide with their ideas, if anything they can use the protests as evidence that anti-Japanese behaviour from the government is what people want.

It's not right that property is being destroyed but with such strong feelings you have to expect it. I don't think it's the most sensible way to go about things but as long as it doesn't come to violence against peoples on a scale, then I don't think the police should put themselves in danger to intervene.

The fact that China's government promotes violent riots shows either one of the two following hypotheses:

1. China can no longer control the people and the country has fallen into mob rule.

2. China is basically waging a war against Japan by violently attacking Japanese land (foreign embassies are basically that country's land). China is violating international law requiring host countries to protect foreign embassies and China is refusing to apologize.

Either way, these recent Chinese riots are very disturbing.

That works for me. Under normal circumstances I would say such an action is inexcusable but these aren't normal circumstances and although not condoning it by any stretch of the imagination, I do understand somewhat.

Look bottom line: Riots are inappropriate and shouldn't be allow what so ever. It's a common fact everybody agrees to. End of story.

Run them over of course with my Japanese car.

Lol alright you do that.

hahaha dry as sand.

Driving over someone with a toyota is much harder than driving over them with a tank, haha.

no one laughing? pretty bad joke, i guess, saw it on the daily show...

I forgot my cars not running. I might just have to push it really fast...

Where was freedom of speech in 1989? Perhaps it is under that tank. I truly do hope that the japanese learn about the PRC after these protests.

that was 1989 but now its all changed...but what have japan changed from ww2?absolutely notin........still acts agresstion and innocent(most japanese thinks they were the victims of ww2 like atomic bomb hited droped in hiroshima and nagasaki,yet they dont know why the casues)

^ Riiight. China can change in a decade but japan cannot change in half century. Take that garbage to a leftist. Perhaps they will tolerate it.

has ur goverment officially apologe to the chinese and koreans???
has ur goverment officials stop going to that shrine of war crimanls????
has ur goverment stop distoring the ww2 yet?????
I see no changes.........

I see no changes.........

Neither do I.

Hey Barker, why don't you tell us what some Japanese Rightists did to inflict damage upon Chinese property and the Chinese embassy. Japanese police investigation on that is almost nil no? You seem to have this mentality of China = wrong, and Japan = right in your brain. The world is anything but black and white.

Arguing with Japanese nationalist, and even worse, arguing with American anime geeks about Japan is like arguing with a brick wall.

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Dealing with americans period is like dealing with a brick wall. Except the brick wall is infested with disease spreading parasites. Then the contractor has the gall to tell you that it is there for your own good from a thousand miles away.

Arguing with Chinese is even worse. The Chinese refuse to believe that there are different perspectives to history.

I will not apologize until the Chinese prove that Japanese atrocities had occurred with valid evidence. Not some shady Communist witnesses, not with faked photographs, and not with forged documents. I want real evidence that japan had done something wrong and until China does so I will not apologize.

Now, the japanese government has apologized repeatedly (not really sure what the hell it is they apologize). Japanese prime ministers are like windup dolls. They're sent off to china and Korea just in order to bow like crazy. They apologize and apologize, hoping to appease the tensions but it does nothing. FInally, a more powerful (but not powerful enough) leader, Koizumi, enters the political scene and semi-asserts his beliefs. Though these days Koizumi is bending, Koizumi has been right to say "no" when Japan had only known how to say "yes" all this time.

Arguing with a Japanese nationalist is like arguing with a brick wall? Don't make me laugh. Chinese will only say, "This is common sense" or "Everyone knows." The point of this argument is to discuss whether what everyone believes is true or not. Saying that "everyone knows" is does not prove that it is right. Everyone used to believe that the world was flat. Everyone used to believe the earth was the center of the universe. That does not make it truth. Just because there are alleged victims does not make it fact. I can accuse you all of raping my parents but that does not make it true. Exagerating numbers to 300,000 is a crime. What if I told you that in the Tsushu massacre, the Chinese killed 300,000 Japanese civilians? Does that make it truth? No, 264 people were killed and that is what's documented. 264 is still a terrible crime and the gruesome way they killed the Japanese civilians is uncondonable. However, that's a very VERY different story from 300,000. The numbers matter and debating the numbers means we can get a better understanding of history.

China needs to become more liberal. Chinese people have been brainwashed with their anti-Japanese education and they can't see anything else. This needs to change.

The chinese are becoming very nazi-like.

Meatball:



It's about 50/50.



What the hell kind of evidence do you want? Hell imperial soldiers have even confessed to such crimes. That alone is proof enough. I understand how perhaps you feel the chinese are untrustworthy. Fine. Though look at all the people that claimed to have been or injured or have lost a family memeber. Are some of the stories exaggerated for propaganda use? I would not for a moment put it past the chinese people. However many of them are true. I would even go as far as to say the vast majority. They cannot all be lieing comrade. My only true questions are about the actual numbers that were slain.



Yes because they are communists they are liars. You are thinking like an american.



Whoa there. You apologize eh? Your appology wont really matter on anything more than an individual level. In anycase I personally wouldn't appology either way. To appologize one must be guilty of actual crime. An appology from your mouth would be nothing more than a nice gesture. As for evidence? What do you want them to start digging up chinese corpses and mailing them to you so that you can view the gunshot wounds to the back of the heads? Or perhaps the wounds inflicted by the manufactured swords that cut through their bodies.



I say just one more big appology to everyone and then never again.



And america is doing the winding up. Until japanese are willing to take back their indepence from the america imperialists perhaps you should learn to enjoy.



One of the many inferior elements of japanese society that should be destroyed. No japanese should bow to anyone outside of japan. Simple as that.



I thought you liked koizumi? I supported the man because I thought he would stand up for japanese people for a change. Exactly as you say he only half asserts his beliefs. The only way japan will see true indepence is with a rightist. Inshihara would be a prime candidate. The word "no" would be said each time. More about that another time though.



While japan needs to become less liberal.



Japan needs the most to change the systems that the imperialists have placed on the nation first.

Ogumo, I can easily get my entire school to say anything if I just paid 10,000 yen to each student. I can get each person in my school to testify that the Chinese had raped them. But that does not make it truth. This is basically what China is doing, but now, it does not even need to give the people money. Chinese people have been so deeply brainwashed, they will say things without even thinking about what they're saying.

No doubt, the Chinese experienced hell during WWII. Of course. They were fighting a war. I'm sure they must have resented the Japanese very much for pushing around the POWs and forcing them to stay in little houses with terrible food and having guns pointed at them as they were told not to move. Yeah, but that does not equal, Japanese soldiers going crazy and raping/looting. There are VERY VERY few Japanese ex-soldiers who "admitted" to committing crimes. These people confessed on books that made millions of yen in money. Investigations have been made by private organization to check the validity of their statements and they have been found false. For example, the most famous Japanese ex-soldier confession is that of Yoshida (his first name has just slipped my mind). Yoshida confessed to forcible transport of Koreans to comfort stations. However, when Korean elders of the regions Yoshida stated were asked whether that actually happened, the elders denied the events. In fact, Korean historians of those regions state that Yoshida was blatantly lying. But Koreans have been caught up in teh comfort women fever and they refuse to believe that this whole comfort women issue was started by a JAPANESE! The comfort women idea didn't even exist twenty years ago! That's unbelievable now!

Chinese people are really lying. They probably experienced a terrible time. However, this is because a war was going on. With information from the Nationalist and communist propaganda bureau telliing the citizens in hiding that the neighboring town was gruesomely massacred, the citizens came to believe that they were truth. Many of the "witnesses" are secondhand witnesses. Many had not actually seen anything. In many cases, they were probably killed by accidental civilian casualties or by Chinese soldiers who were undergoing the "scorched earth" policy.

There's no solid evidence to back up their testimonies too. Yes, we can bring up millions of witnesses, but not a single solid evidence. Witnesses aren't enough, that's what I'm just saying. And when I said Communist witnesses, I was not emphasizing that they are Communist. I was just saying that because they are on teh Communist party's payroll, or at least influence, they are being fed information and their memories get fuzzy. During the war, before the war, and after the war, the Chinese war survivors have been hearing their governments tell them that Japanese had been committing atrocities. They are getting their memories muddled by this constant brainwashing.

We need SOLID evidence. Until Japan is proven guilty, Japan remains innocent. The burden of proof lies in the prosecuter.

Japan doesn't need to become less liberal, freedom is teh best thing Japan has right now. And by limiting freedom, that is not going to accomplish anything. That's only going to irritate the Chinese and make Japan stoop down to the Chinese level. We need to ask the international community to help liberalize China.

Oh, and also, if you insult me by calling me "meatball" you're just stooping down to the level of the Chinese insulting me too. Calling me "meatball" is neither making your argument more convincing nor making you sound more intelligent.

But Barker, you still haven't provided a strong enough counterclaim to the testimonies of people directly involved in the atrocities.

Of course human testimony is unreliable but until you provide some concrete, it is still the most reliable source in this case.

Barker, the war atrocities were confirmed by the UN tribunal at that time... They wouldn't have hung people without strong enough evidence, since you seem to have a favorable preference toward Western views, right? There were multiple interpretations of the evidence, from multiple points of view, and from multiple nations. I think it oughta to be accurate enough. As for "Communism propagandas," you do realize that there are "Democratic propagandas" as well right =)

barkerintokyo:

Do you know what? I don't care about the history issue anymore. If you want to believe it is all lies fine. No need for me to do the chinese and korean's work for them. I have gone far off track dealing with it.



To hell with china and their feelings. They certainly do not go out of their way to spare ours. Japan needs to do the best for japan only. Just like they want no one to deal with their internal affairs they should have no say at all with ours.



Thats just the thing. Japan is not free. Japan will not be free until it regains indepence from america. Not a moment before.



Yes because the chinese are really down there. Look meatball you have already insulted me with your "japan" has freedom comments. Absolutely disgusting.

Damn right. How can a country be "free" with another country's military swarming throughout the country?

Yeah just like the American Revolution we had to send you guys out of our country.

Certainly we have nothing to learn from you, RED!
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Just go back to your home work and come back at me! OK?
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barkerintokyo
I am a proud Japanese, like you but remind you Old Japanese army have done awful and atrocious acts long before we were born.
This is the fact.
Then some years ago, our prime minitor has officially apologized to Chinese people and their government.
But we can't help those sticky Chinese nature, no matter what we do.
They just coming back with the same old complain.
Mind you, Koreans are the similar.

As whole world knows, Japanese are far advanced in technologies, quality of every products, much better international relations, but Chinese and Koreans don't have.

We have big problem, that is the animosity between Chinese/Korean and Japanese.
We forget past history but they never be able to forget even 60 years past.
We can not help them.
It is in their blood and mind.

The strange nature of Chinese and Koreans is they don't trust their own people.
I am an independent industrial engineer.
I have so many good Chinese and Korean customers.
There are few Chinese and Korean competitors in mu industry, but they hire me instead of their fellows in their own communities.

I do my best to avoid buying goods made in Korea and China, products possibly contain components from those two countries, certainly never use maintenance parts for my customers even I pay much higher price.

They can hire me, they can buy Japanese goods and services.
Then I personally have been boycoting Chinese and Korean goods and services for many years however I love watching Chinese acrobats.

One thing I want to see is how Chinese economy stands up after Olympic games.
Chinese economy is booming right now, it actually over heating.
Just take look young Chinese in streetsin big cities, they don't look like good old hard working Chinese.

Look at Korean, their economy was booming, Korean automobiles, electronics were spreading all over the world with extreamely longer warranty.
But world won't trust Korean autos, they can't sell even no matter they set prices much lower than all others.

Just wait and see, how Chinese can do after Olympics.
Once Chinese production cost starts creeping up and booming economy starts cooling down, Giant Chinese follows Korean history of past 20 yeras.

Mean while, we Japanese must work smart and learn more to stay better than them.
I know we have big problem with young gutless Japanese.
We call them NEET which means "Not employed, educated and trained" some thing like that.
Those NEET is so visible in big Japanese cities and even in country side.
They just talk but useless and are dangerous.
Oh! Problems and more problems.

I find you sad that you bow down to the Red Chinese. You should learn from the younger generations and your parents on how to be a better patriot to your country.

Even watching all these mainland Chinese-made movies , you can see how good they brainwashed people. "marching crowd shouts "abortion is good , 1 is enough" over and over. Alot of Chinese need to free their minds and redevelope their nation.

While you made MANY (incorrect) statements based upon your biases - your statement above shows that you really don't know crap.

First of all, Samsung Electronic's profits were about 10x what Sony's profits were last year.

Second, Hyundai Motors is poised to compete head to head with the best of Japan (Toyota and Honda) with the latest version of the Sonata and XG (now called Azera) which will debut later this year in the U.S.

The heads of Toyota and Honda both acknowledged that Hyundai/Kia was their biggest threat. Plus, Hyundai/Kia sales in the U.S. have broken sales record after record for each quarter and world sales, in probably 2-3 more years, will make Hyundai/Kia the 5th largest auto maker in the world.

Having said that - there are many fine Japanese Corporations which make great products - unfortunately, YOU are NOT one of the "quality" made in Japan "products" if you believe in all of this uber-nationalistic crap that all weak-minded, bigoted and xenophobic losers spout out (whether they be Chinese, Korean or Japanese).

Too Much Korean pride can be a bad thing. Khu is right, China needs to stop force feeding their Chicomm propaganda to their sheep-peoples. We seriously need a war to free the Chinese from the Matrix and free Taiwan from Chinese duress.

i will love to see your kind try MT.

HAHAHAHAHA 2 THE MATRIX? Oh man....Sheep-peoples? What delusional world are you living in?

Too much Korean pride is a bad thing? I'd say too much TAIWANESE pride on the same note can be a bad thing, exampled through you.

To better understand barkerintokyo's and other holocaust/genocide deniers' mentality and motivations, as well as methods, please see the following article linked below...it very much summarizes why and how he and many other rightwing japanese deny the truth...

http://www.cgs.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ws/workshop_040625.eng.htm

^ Oh hi!

Well even with that it is hard to be convincing since the source itself poses prejudice against those type of attitudes.

Not to mention that this lecture is a draft and never once mentions specifically Japanese Nanking Massacre denial theory.

But I must admit to one thing though: I'm guilty of mistrusting witnesses. However, when I was younger, I was full of hatred for my own country and believed fully the witnesses of China. However, as I grew up, and read up more on the events of Nanking, the more I began to question these witnesses. Since the primary sources have much more credibility than these "witnesses" (haha, now I'm putting quotation marks around them) and these two sources of information conflict, I was forced into mistrust.

I have been told from my parents and from my grandparents that it is better to be tricked than to trick. This is Japanese spirit and Japanese philosophy. But this is a philosophy coming from a relatively secluded peaceful nation. This kind of thinking does not/cannot apply to the real world. I have grown cynical over the years but everyone has to grow up right?

Ah yes, actual witnesses don't count as "primary sources", videos and dated unaltered photographs from the time period don't count. What counts are those selected infallable Japanese sources who all say the exact same thing.

It's time to lay down the cards and show us the "primary sources" you have? Where is it, I want to demolish them and make you a laughingstock of this forum...

Even other Japanese are writing about what you deny...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...g=UTF8&v=glance

What primary sources do you have to proof Barker? Former IJA personnel aren't that eager to speak otu these days due to threats from the dumbass right wing