German Press Pitches into Japan War Crimes Debate
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder apologizes once again for Nazi atrocities, bowing his head before the victims during an event in Weimar on Sunday marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Buchenwald concentration camp.

What Will President Roh See in Germany?by Kim Dae-joong
A German daily on Monday criticized a rightward turn in Japan's leadership saying the island country was increasingly celebrating its warlike past. "Nationalist groups are increasing that loudly publicize the greatness of Japan's old empire and the heroic soldiers of the emperor's army," the conservative daily Die Welt wrote.

"Radicals in black buses appear before the Chinese, Russian and Korean embassies whenever disputes over sovereignty over certain islands restart," the paper said. "A recent example is the Dokdo islets, called Takeshima by Japan, over which Korea has resumed control for the last several of decades after they were taken away from Korea by Japan in 1905."

The paper recounted Japanese war crimes such as the Rape of Nanking, human experiments of Unit 731, and drafting of countless Korean and Chinese women into forced prostitution as "comfort women." "In redefining its history, Japan often hides behind its own victims, reminding people of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japanese history textbooks fail to mention Japanese war crimes and give distorted descriptions of history."

Meanwhile, in the small east German village of Buchenwald, Germans marked Sunday the liberation of the notorious concentration camp where thousands of Jews were confined and killed during World War II. German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, attending a remembrance ceremony in nearby Weimar, again offered regrets for the atrocity. "We cannot change history, but this country can learn a lot from the deepest shame of our history."

"The death of millions, the suffering of the survivors, the torment of the victims -- this is the basis of our task to create a better future," he said. The German chancellor, who has apologized every opportunity he had for Nazi Germany's holocaust, apologized once again, saying, "I bow before you, the victims and their families," AP reported. The Buchenwald concentration camp, where 240,000 Jews, Gypsies, Russians and political prisoners were kept from 1937, claimed the lives of about 56,000 through starvation, torture and hard labor. The U.S. Army entered the camp on April 11, 1945, liberating 21,000 prisoners.

Concentration camp liberation ceremonies are held in various places in Germany in April, when the U.S. military drove back the Nazi army. Each time, the German chancellor, president and deputy chancellor split up to attend various events, apologizing and reflecting on the mistakes of the past.

(englishnews@chosun.com )

a murderer scolding another. what bums.

germany has some very tough anti-racism and holocaust denial laws...you can get arrested for doing the heil hitler salute in germany....germany is admitting to its past mistakes....japan isn't really..or is it?..idk...

It's because the jews are in control. When anyone says anything that criticizes Israel and Zionism, they are all of the sudden "anti-semetic." I remember a Holocaust deniar, I think Irving, that has been arrested and put in jail for writing books about it. As for me, I don't believe in the Holocaust. That "extermination of the jews" as the Final Solution was a public rumour and it did not happen.

Japan has done much more than Germany in apologizing about WWII. Only a person who has done no research on this subject can say otherwise.

Germany has only begun to start paying countries for their WWII era crimes. Japan has paid trillions of yen to surrounding countries. Every single meeting held between Japan and heads of state of East Asian countries as begun with Japan ceremonially apologizing for WWII.

Japan apologizes for things that it shouldn't even apologize for. Such as forced military comfort women. There's absolutely no evidence that proves that there were forced military comfort women and yet Japanese prime ministers continue to apologize. This is a serious problem for Japan...

Apologies apologies, let's see some action to back it up, like the Germans, it's as simple as that.

The germans have ONLY apologized. Japan has paid trillions of yen in war reparations to China, Korea, and variosu other east asian countries.

GERMANY has only BEGUN to pay reparations to countries. The fact that Japan did not demand that its colonial assets be returned to Japan alone entailed over trillions of yen in loss. The Japanese endured atrocities by the Chinese after WWII while the Germans did not. Japan losts its right to have a legitimate army meaning Japan is now defenseless against Chinese attack.

Germany had it MUCH MUCH easier than Japan. Anyone who is educated on this subject can see this.

One question in regard to the bolded statement. I want to know more about it. Can you explain it further?

You all should shut up now.

I've read nothing intelligent so far.

Then contribute something intelligent. Participation is always healthy.

To be fair, he has a point.

It's just another Barkerintokyo ramble about how cleaner than clean the Japanese are and how brave he is sitting behind his computer and denying all the atrocities that were committed to very real Chinese people by the Japanese.

The guy is so brainwashed and offensive.

Good article posted up by the decline of japan though. Pity Japan can't just swallow their pride, admit their past and maybe not try to simply throw money at the problem. What Gerhard Schroeder did shows genuine class, sympathy and human compassion. Japan should learn a lesson.

Actually I don't think the point is effective in bringing perspectives onto the table. Barkerintokyo may seem brainwashed but if he is then I want to straighten some facts out. I hope he does reply though and not ignoring the genuine responses. I want to see why he views this situation in such way along with the evidences to support his claim.

He's a human and so am I. As long as we can use English to communicate the underlying truth will be brought closer to recognition.

EDIT: No matter how offensive he is, as long as I can understand what he's writing about.

Well you have higher hopes from this discussion than me.

If this was the first thread of this nature I had come across with his views in it, I would be as hopeful as you but you've read elsewhere what sort of things he has been writing and they are straight out of the government's press office.

It would be great if he could write you a realistic response instead of calling all Chinese victims liars and drawing his Japanese soldiers (which may or not have been there at all depending on his argument) with little halos around their heads.

I'm sorry for the skeptical tone but it's getting rather tiresome as every time someone comes to post in these threads, I have to deal with the same thing over and over again.

EDIT: Just saw your edit and it's not just how offensive he is, it's how he takes the extents of probability to the extremes and doubts everything which contradicts his preferred worldview.

^then we would have to straighten out the definitions of which under the prevailiing circumstances imply, in many of his examples. I'll be waiting for his response.

No problem, I wish you the best of luck. I guess I'll be back when he does reply to see what he comes up with this time.

Okay, there goes Jaimu-Jaimu disrespecting me once again.

This is gonna be my last post for tonight, I really have work to do.

It is very well known that the Chinese committed atrocities immediately after Japan surrendered the war. I don't think I really need to elaborate on that one.

What is less known is the number of atrocities commited by the Chinese before the start of the Japan-China war (the specific war fought between China and Japan during WWII). Japan went to war against China because Chinese officers were killing Japanese civilians in the hundreds. I know this place value (the hundreds place value) doesn't register as a large number for many people after the Chinese claim Japan slaughtered 300,000 in Nanking but my belief is that Nanking did not happen or at least is exaggerated immensely. Chinese massacres entailed brutal rapes, mutilation of bodies, ripping out of eyeballs, cutting off of fingers, and other grotesque acts. Sound familiar? Yes, many Chinese claimed that this is what the Japanese did after WWII. The Chinese were able to come up with their stories because they had seem them happen before, by their own Chinese government. Stabbing women in the genitals is a torture technique that has existed in China for a long time. The Japanese had never done this in their history and many of the accusations placed on Japan are merely stories of Chinese torture techniques.

I'll have you know, saying that I'm brainwashed is very illegitimate argument as, as you can probably see, I wasn't educated in Japan. I was educated by the U.S. public education system. I examine historical evidence and balance credibility. The Chinese witnesses have no credibility behind what they say. However, written evidence carries much more weight and say exactly the opposite of what the witnesses say. The Chinese people are the ones who have truly been brainwashed. The whole world knows of the anti-Japanese education that the Chinese government has been employing over the last decade. They do not show anything good that the Japanese have done, they systematically edit documents and forge photographs. These are undeniable facts.

As Lewis Black, a comedian on the Daily Show, said recently in one of his routines, "Yes, Japan's textbooks are full of lies, according to the bastion of truth, the Chinese government." (said with immense sarcasm). Americans know of how ridiculous the Chinese claims are. Only the Chinese are fooling themselves. Ask a Taiwanese person, ask a Malaysian, ask an Indian, as certain Manchurians, ask Philipinos, they'll all tell you the same thing: Japanese army was a delightful and welcome army especially after western colonial rule.

What you've claimed about China doing all sort of nasty things (if it was true) was nevertheless not an excuse to invade a whole bloody country. Besides the Nanjing massacre, the Japanese have caused countless damage to millions of lives in Asia. This was a war. There is no point telling people how good certain portion of the Japanese soldiers conducted themselves during various occupations. The underlying theme is, that the initiation of a large scaled warfare itself provides enough reason to discredit ANY nation the benefits of their actions. War is a monster. Saying the monster had commited some 'lawful' acts elsewhere to remedy the accusations of its fallacy is very much erroneous because there are always more damage done in a war than any other forms of diplomatic struggle. Japan's "Great asian war" falls into the same general category, let alone the scale of the conflict in which Japan took its ambition about. In this same manner I oppose war between China and Taiwan. And likewise, Japan is in the wrong if they are to deny the Nanjing massacre. This goes back to the argument on its validity.

Well, it would be inexcusable if Japan really did commit atrocities in Asia but the question is, "Did Japan?"

That's why the impartial studying of history is sooo important today. Whether Japan really did a bad job in managing its colonies and captured territories can really affect Japan-Sino relations.

Chinese people try to prevent any debate on this topic. If anyone tries to suggest that Japan hadn't done wrong in Asia, Chinese will label him a "rightist," a "militarist," and other names. If China won't comply to academic reexamination, Japan-Sino relations can never get better.

I'm not trying to excuse alleged Japanese actions by bringing up Chinese actions. I'm just trying to ask whether Japan had legitimate reason to enter China.

Well to avoid making this an exact repeat of the thread on the subject Barker, you could just put a link to it and write your points assuming that the Nanking massacre happened. Otherwise we are just repeating.



Let's stick with that as opposed to covering familiar ground.

My standpoint: Japan did not have a legitimate reason to invade China in a full scale war.

Apart from imperialist desires, I agree.

Yeah also BT, we aren't talking about atrocities here, I'll place the Nanjing massacre aside just for now. This is about the intiation of, as Japan claimed, a "Great Asia War". Why was there a necessity for Japanese government to make this decision?

That's a very good question to ask and its a question that all peoples must freely discuss.

There are several prominent views as to why Japan took the actions that it did. They are because Japan's Meiji Constitution was inadequate, because general's of the Japanese army became insubordinate, because Japan entered the tripartite agreement, because Japan didn't accept America's offers in the 19th century, because Japan didn't accept the Hull Note, and etc. However, the common theme of these answers is that Japan was at fault. The problem with this thinking is that Japan's actions are not placed in perspective of the place and time. People say today that Japan had reasons to go to war, but they were wrong. Well, you can't judge the actions of countries seventy years ago with the standard of judgements and morals of today.

1853, Commodore Perry arrives in Tokyo Bay with gigantic military vessels and coerces Japan to open to unfair trade and unequal treaties. The powerful European countries and America called Japan a third world country and treated Japan terribly. The world at the time was a kill or be killed world. It was an era of war. Survival of the fittest was a popular idea. Social darwinism was the dominant intellectual philosophy. For a country like Japan, there was only two choices: become a colony of the western world or join the western powers. Japan decided upon the second choice. They adopted the motto "fukokukyouhei," wealthy nation, powerful army. And thus, Japan underwent the Meiji Restoration and the incredible modernization.

The Unequal Treaties were ended with Japan defeating China in the Sino-Japanese war. Extrality was ended with Japan's victory in the Japan-Russo War. With a powerful army, finally the world recognized Japan as a true nation. That was the sad state of world affairs at the time. Wealth and powerful army are two things that could not be separated.

At the time, Japan wished that China and Chosen peninsula would immitate Japanese modernization and stand at the same level as the west. However, China and Korea continued to stubbornly stick with the old order (that China is the center of the universe and Korea, being the closest country to China, is the second best country in the universe). This "foreign policy" recognizing that any country outside of China is barbarian is called "kaichitsujo" (華夷秩序). China since the ancient times has had an emperor (皇帝) and no other country had one. All surrounding countries were forced to pay tribute to this emperor. This tribute even included comfort women. Yes, Korea had been giving Chinese emperors comfort women throughout its history. China gave official seals to leaders of surrounding countries that granted them the permission to rule. However, when Shoutoku Taishi changed himself from the status of king to emperor (天皇), Japan-Sino relations deteriorated. Japan was now out of the system. Japan was now the lowest country in the world to China. Korea then began to boast its superiority to Japan. According to Confuscian values, Japan became the lowest brother, Korea, the eldest, and China the father.

China continued to believe this foolishly when European powers had surpassed China greatly. China loses in teh Opium Wars and is half made into a colony. Even still, China and Korea stick with the old philosophy that CHina is the supreme land. This philosophy is inherently racist and they viewed Japan's Meiji Restoration as a destroyer of the old order. China said that Japan's imitation of the west is imitation of beasts and China and Korea stubbornly refuse to modernize.

Japan feared the terrible situation. If China and Korea fell into the hands of the west, Japan would be next, they thought. Japan needed a Korea that had a modern western government and western military. In fact, in Korea, a coup occurs that advocates the imitation of Japan's modernization. This is called the Koushin Incident (again, the word the Chinese dislike, "incident."). However, this coup fails. The father of Japanese modernization and the man on he 10000 yen bill today, Fukuzawa Yukichi, was a prominent lover of Korea. He wished that Korea will join Japan in modernizing rather than fall to western colonialism like China. Russia to the north were eyeing the Chosen peninsula and once Russia takes that, Japan would be next, they feared.

In 1894, the Japan-Sino War happens. China was obliterated by the modern army that Japan had. With this defeat, China begins to open its eyes. The powers had reversed. China, who used to accept Japanese interns, "kenzuishi" and "kentoushi," is now the one sending interns to Japan to learn how to modernize. The first thing that Japan demanded after defeating China was the independence of Korea. However, once Korea's independence was created, Korea's allegiance still remained to the old order. Taking advantage of Korea's bad self-governing, Russia invaded Korea. What Japan had feared most suddenly occurred.

In 1904, Japan goes to war with Russia. Japan very narrowly defeats Russia. With this incident, many leaders of Asian countries come to Japan to learn about how to gain independence. Kuon De, of Vietnam, Bihari Bousu of India, Rikarute of Philipines, and U Ottama of Burma are some of the most prominent figures (sorry about terrible spelling of these names, I only know how to spell them in Japanese). With the defeat of the Russians, Korea becomes a protectorate of Japan. Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan, becomes the leader of Korea. He immediately begins modernizing Korea by building a central bureaucracy, civil code, creating a central bank of Korea, starting the industrial revolution there, creating schools, and other such things. Ito's philosophy was that once Korea is modernized enough, Korea will declare its own independence from Japan. However, anti-Japanese riots begin to occur in Korea. The Korean imperial court pretends to support Japan but in secret meets with Russians. Japanese politicians feel threatened and push for the annexation of Korea. Ito is adamantly against this. However, Ito is assassinated by a Korean who wrongly believes that Ito is anti-Korean. 1910, Korea is annexed by Japan. The foreign minister of Korea at the time, Li Seigyoku (i don't know the Korean name) says that the only way for Korea to continue to exist is become part of Japan.

Korea becomes part of Japan at this point. Before this annexation, great famines occurred in Korea frequently and walking on the streets, you would see bodies of those died from starvation. Corrupt officials would steal from the peasants, there was no system of juries or courts, and bribery was rampant. However, when Japan establishes its hold on Korea, all of these problems seem to disappear. Japan does a proper census and finds the population of Korea, they survey the land, water, and forests. They corrected agriculture methods, taught the Koreans Hangul, fixed a civil code, created proper health care, built railroads, built ports, and built factories. In 1931, Litton's investigations of Japanese activities representing the US states that Japan's modernization of Korea is a miracle. A couple decades ago, Koreans were in fear of corrupt government, had been starving, and had no industry. But now he would look out of his train window and see the people plowing fields and smoke billowing from factories. Crime rate was at an all time low and the people obeyed the law. There was order in Korea, he said. He also said that Japan's method of colonization is unique and has never been done before by any other country.

Japan's investment in their newly acquired Korea was incredible. Japan made absolutely no profit by modernizing Korea. In fact, they were losing tons of money. China tries to imitate Japan's success in Korea but fail at this point. Starting 1911, with Sonbun's attempt to create a modern China, civil war breaks out in China. In a period of 20 years, regions of China go to all out war 500 times. Ironically, the only place where there was peace was inside the "spheres of influence," the colonies of the westerners and Japan. Inside the spheres of influence, there was an established common law, there were police enforcing the law, and there was system of checks and balances preventing corruption. Outside, there was warfare.

Then, WWI occurs. During WWI, the Bolshevik revolution occurs. Russia becomes socialist. 1921, the Chinese Communist Party forms. 1922, the Japanese communist party forms. In China, Chiang Kaishek becomes the head of the Nationalist Party and in 1926 begins a systematic raping and looting for the ultimate goal of unifying china. The Socialists of Russia gave huge amounts of aid to the nationalists. Russia was trying to create chaos between the Nationalists and Communists because in chao, does a socialist nation truly emerge. Russian schools began a systematic brainwashing of its citizens to love socialism/communism and hate other nations. One of their biggest desires was to isolate Japan and create anti-Japan and anti-European sentiments in China.

Meanwhile, the Communists were inflitrating even the Nationalist party. Chiang Kai-Sheck realized this and this leads to the First Nanking Incident. 1927, massacre, rape, and loot the foreign embassies in Nanking. The world is angered by this and the Nationalists' prestige is lowered. Britain and America send troops to China. Japan follows suit. But before the Japanese army gets there, the Nationalist army destroy Japanese stores, kill 9 Japanese military officers trying to restore order, and 400 civilians are killed. Specifically 14 Japanese people were very gruesomely killed.

One thing that must be understood when understanding the Japanese troops in China is the Chinese people's responses. To the Chinese, they didn't care who their leader was anymore. No leader had remained in power for long. When the Japanese forces entered, the people welcomed the Japanese. The Japanese had a much better reputation than the Chinese land pirates and corrupt governments.

Anyway, at this point, the importance of Manchuria starts to get revealed. The foreign minister of America had calmly noted that for Japan's safety in Asia to be assured, Japan absolutely needs Manchuria. Also, China expert at the time, John V A. Macmally says Japan, for its own safety and security, needs Manchuria's resources. Japan was modernizing rapidly. During Edo, there were only 26000000 people. By the Japan-Russo war, there were 40000000. Before the start of WWII, there were 80000000. This population could not be sustained with Japan's resources at the time. MacArthur after the war acknowledges that Japan had no choice but to go to war. Even today, if America cuts off its resources to japan, Japan would die.

Japan tries to get some formal treaties with Manchuria. However, manchuria's leader at the time, Chousakurin (sorry, don't know Chinese name) was very corrupt. He used 90% of the peasants' taxes on military. He was extremely anti-Japanese. The Japanese government tries to reach an agreement but Chou doesn't comply. But before things could get better, a Japanese military officer of the Kantou Army kills Chou without orders. The Japanese prime minister is forced to resign for his lack of control over matters. This PM is Tanaka Giichi, now famous for his "Tanaka Memorial" which alleged states Japan's plans to take over the world. However, this Tanaka Memorial turned out to be written by the Chinese and this propaganda was spread throughout the world and anti-Japanese feelings around the world were reaching a peak. Chinese propaganda also made the First nanking Massacre something teh Japanese were responsible for when it was clear that Japan was the victim.

At the worst timing, the Great Depression hits. America and European countries stop their exporting and Japan was cut off from its resources. For a decade, US and other capitalistic countries were unable to rise out of their Great Depression. However, Communist Russia did not have such a serious affect. Their government controlled economy did not suffer. In Germany, Hitler becomes the dictator and their economy starts booming. The whole world's climate is that of fascism and government control. The intellectuals at the time believed that it was the end of democracy. Even in teh US, President FDR did some very drastic Communistic control of the economy. Totalitarianism is the new fad of the 1930s.

In Japan controlled Manchuria at this point, Manchuria's economy begins to boom. With good governing and good agricultural development, the people were living a good life. But when the Chinese saw that their former land, manchuria, was doing well, they suddenly started demanding their land back. Manchuria, like Korea and Taiwan, was flourishing. Their economy was doing well, there was law and order. This was all thanks to Japan's inflationary investment. The Chinese people were requesting to be let in manchuria because they had heard about the better life in manchuria. Especially since their own leaders were demanding taxes from over 100 years ago to be paid.

The Japanese military, consumed by their own success, declares Manchuria a state of Japan without the consent of the government. This begins the custom of the military taking control of things without the government's consent.

In China, Mao becomes a chairman of a temporary government in 1931. This government is an absolute dictatorship and any desenters were immediately killed. Mao's actions were incredibly horrible. His army of 100,000 becomes 6000 just from travel. But even still he turns China red, slowly. Chiang Kai-Shek is captured and is forced to stop anti-Communist attacks and begin anti-Japanese education. All thoughout China, China is using propaganda to create anti-Japanese sentiment. On 1937 July 7th, on Marco Polo Bridge, some Chinese shoot at the Japanese army. Communist spies had infiltrated Nationalist army and shot at the Japanese army. Seven hours later, a vicious barrage of shooting comes in Japan's way. Battle ensues. This is the Marco Polo Incident. Ever since, Japan's army is continually shot at at random and continued anti-Japanese education worsen Japan-China ties. Then, on July 29th, the Tsushu massacre occurs. 264 Japanese men and women are massacred in very cruel ways. On August 14, the Nationalists, led by the threatened Chiang Kai-Shek, attack Shanghai. Within the Japanese sphere of influence, over 1700 Japanese civilians are killed. On August 15, full scale war between Japan and China begins.

An interesting thing happens in Korea at this point. Koreans finally stop believing in the old order. Koreans begin to view Japanese as more civilized. In the 3.1 Declaration of Independence, former anti-Japanese Koreans convert to pro-Japanese enthusiasts. A movement within the Koreans occurs to make Korea more Japanese. In 1938, the bestseller in Korea was a book by Geneishou titled the Path Korea Should Follow. In it, it stated how Koreans should become more Japanese for its best interests. Gen proposes the destruction of the Korean language and proposes the destruction of all Korean culture. The Japanese government in Korea and its organization to Protect Korean Culture tries to furiously protect Korean heritage while the Koreans themselves were trying to destroy it. Japan begins voluntary army enlistment in Korea and Koreans flocked to recruitment offices.

Was war against China really avoidable? With this political climate? In fact, many pro-Japanese Europeans were being assassinated in the spheres of influences. America cuts off trade with Japan and begins sending weapons to the nationalists. Japan is without any resources and the most powerful nation in the world is giving weapons that are being used to attack japanese military. The cutting off of oil was the last straw. Japan had no way to sustain itself alone. With anti-Japanese propaganda being spewed forth from China, Americans were very anti-Japanese. Racism had much to do with American sentiment as well (which is reflected in such things as the Gentlemen's Agreement).

Then the war against american is even more ridiculous. Japan is furiously trying to fix the problems between America and Japan, sending its ministers to Washington for talks. However, America has already made up its mind to go to war with Japan so it will not bend to any compromise. America was waiting for the inevitable attack on the US. Then Pearl Harbor happens. Japan could no longer go without any oil if it wanted to survive. Japan attacks several colonies at the same time. And Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor would not have been a surprise attack had the Japanese Embassy, which was supposed to carry the declaration of war to Washington, not been empty (having a farewell party for one of the ambassaders who was heading back to Japan).

With the whole world, holding their fingers on the triggers of their guns, pointing it at each other, Japan was put in a very difficult situation. Japan had no choice but to declare war for its own continued existance. Japan's declaration of war states that in its own self defense and continued self existance, Japan needed to go to war. Japan's leaders were forced to make a very very difficult decision. They knew Japan would lose the war against America but if they didn't attack, they'd surely die. So they decided, that for the people, they would have to gamble on that miniscule chance.

BIT, thank you for providing us the right wing Japanese view, now anyone care to present the human being view on this topic?

He quoted a Comedy show

i read a interesting article in one of norways leading newspapers today.
it stated that even though japan is pretty lame to stroke over their history like they have done in those textbooks, and that they should apologize to china, the chinese government and china has quite a few historical "fixes" too, that many chinese students aren't even aware of, the whole piece is in norwegian and im too lazy to translate it, but there are many examples and stuff in it that the chinese has covered up

Off topic, not only that but Lewis Black is quite possibly the lamest, most unfunny comedian to ever hit the stage. His jokes are so stale and lame, it's funny that anyone would even consider him a comedian. All he does is curse every other sentence in a very angry fashion, wow real funny. He's dull, unintelligent, witless, boring, and just flat out lame. Everyone from George Carlin to Chris Rock to the late Bill Hicks were thousands of times the comedian that Black is.

LOL, bull$hit alert.

I just quoted Lewis Black because he was pretty funny.

The Daily Show, though it is a talk show/comedy, it represents a fair majority of the opinions of the American public.

Teh fact that you dismiss my opinions with a mere, "bull$hit alert," shows the fact that you are unwilling to stand up to a logical debate.

If you are saying that Chinese committed atrocities are "bull$hit" then you are filled with "bull$hit" yourself because they are recognized by the international community and are undebated. However, Japan's atrocities are constantly being debated as to whether they occurred or not even outside Japan.

You are so brainwashed you are incapable of questioning. Why do you KNOW that these things happened? Were you there? No, neither was I. That's why we have to rely on primary sources and evidences.

You're going all broken record on us. I thought you were going to keep this at least in one topic.

Also I explained before that you're awfully naive if you don't think people here have strong feelings about the subject. Are you getting a kick out of provoking people?

I said what I had to say on the subject in the relevent thread, it would just be nice if you would keep the discussion there.

BT, why did Japan felt that they've been ganged by the Chinese and Americans? It is because of Japan's occupation of Manchuria. Now it's pretty clear who initiated the conflict right?

I'll give you a similar scenario:

Jay doesn't like Tom and Tom doesn't like Jay. During the lunch break, Jay purposely shoved Tom to the wall. Tom got angry and pushed Jay back, and caused him to bump into the principal who spilled her coffee by impact. The principal got pissed and gave Jay an afternoon detention. Jay was furious, thinking that Tom had planned this all along. On his way home from the detention. Jay found a scrap metal pole lying on the road. An idea caught up. Instead of turning at the junction to his own street, Jay continued and made his way to Tom's residence. He approached the family's four wheel drive and with every ounce in his strength, gave the car's rooftop one good wack. The roof's metal plating instantly sank into the interior. And suddently Jay heard a loud cry of someone in the car. He smirked, hoping it's Tom. Little did he realise that both of Tom's baby sisters were killed from impact in car. Jay was sentenced to 10 years in the youth detention centre for manslaughter.

11 years later, Jay was trying hard to assume a normal life. He worked diligently to become a counseller that specialises in youth violence. Soon he had the earn the respect of his colleagues and was ready to graduate from his training. Then an interviewer came up to Jay and asked him this question:

"If you were a counseller 11 years ago, what would you say to the Jay you once were?"

Jay answered, "well first of all I wanted to express my utter regret for what I've done back then. I think there was a justified reason for the action I took. On par though, I would also definitely discuss Tom about this situation and evaluate he's mistake, which I believe had essentially brought about "Jay" to do what "he" did."

Soon after, complaint letters started rolling in expressing disapproval at Jay's promotion to the counseller position.

Jaimu-Jaimu, you continue to accuse ME of provoking others but have you thought that the Chinese saying that Japan is inherently wrong on this board is provoking me? These people are accusing my people of something very very terrible. If I have very good reason to believe these accusations are misguided, I have the right, no, I have the responsibility to stand up for what I believe. I think I'm the one being provoked here.

Now, freefallz, though you probably spent a good while trying to come up with that analogy, you obviously can't simplify relations between nations with a simple Tom and Jay story. But if that's the way you want to play how about my version of Tom and Jay's story:

Tom doesn't like Jay very much and vandalizes Jay's locker, takes his class notes, and punches his sister. All this happens in a school where there are no codes of conduct and all the children use fighting to resolve their differences.

Jay asks the student council to help, but the student council will do nothing. In fact, Tom begins to spread bad rumors about Jay and even the strongest kid at school, Aaron, hates Jay. Pretty soon, Aaron and the other strong kids of the school pick on Jay. They cut off Jay's supply to paper and Jay's grades start to fall to a point that he may fail and get kicked out of the school.

Since the source of the conflict was Tom, Jay realizes that though he wants to avoid conflict, for his own continued attendance at school, he needed to take some of Tom's notes. Jay takes Tom's notes and realizes how terrible Tom's notes are. Tom doesn't write on the lines, its really dirty, a lot of the information on the notes is wrong. Jay realizes he must correct Tom's notes because he does not have his own paper to start writing his own notes. Jay makes Tom's notes the best notes in the entire school. Tom is very jealous and angry and decides to burn the notes Jay rewrote. Jay is really angered and he has no choice but to confront Tom. Jay demands that Tom stop harassing him but Tom instead slaps Jay in the face. Jay can't hold back his anger and decides to fight him. Jay is apalled by the dirty tricks Tom uses. Tom burns Jay's car and breaks his house's windows.

Jay's fight with Tom continues a long time that he runs out of coca-cola, the essential power drink he needs to fight Tom with. Aaron controls the vending machine in school and he refuses to give Jay any but continues to give Tom lighters and rocks to fight Jay with. Aaron becomes friends with Tom and with Ray, who just recently became a goth. Brian also joins Aaron's side against Jay. Jay has no choice but to fight Aaron and his incredible posse.

Jay gets some vending machines but the coke runs out immediately. Jay eventually resorts to thowing crumpled up pieces of his notes at Aaron. His efforts are futile and he loses his fight with Aaron. Tom cheers and says that he beat Jay in the fight when in actuality, it was Aaron who beat Jay. The rumors that Tom started (using photoshopped pictures, pictures taken out of context, and staged pictures) continue to live on after the feud and many more are added. Even several months after the feud ended, with Jay giving lots of gum to Tom as apology, more pictures emerge.

Jay grows old and eventually has grandchildren. His grandchildren still have to pay gum to Tom's grandchildren. Jay tells his grandchildren that he didn't do anything wrong, that he had a reason to fight Tom. But the dominant figure of the house, his wife, says Jay was a terrible cruel person and teaches his grandchildren that they need to apologize forever. Jay's wife also tells the grandchildren that they are also cruel and evil too because the grandchildren sometimes listen to Tom's brother, who left Tom's house, who says that Jay hadn't done anything wrong.

These days, Aaron's grandchildren, Brian's grandchildren, and some of their friends are starting to believe that maybe Jay hadn't done anything wrong. But Tom's grandchildren break Tom's house's windows when Jay's grandchildren say they want to join the student council. Their family feud continues on for yet another generation.

See how ridiculous this story sounds. That's how ridiculous your story sounds too. And you learn in high school English class that argument by analogy is ineffective so my response using another analogy is probably just as weak as yours.

For some reason reading your story made me laugh. 2

I did try to add a little humor to it.

It was very difficult to make an analogy between two school kids and a very complex history of WWII.

Well my personal problem is that it doesn't exactly take much balls to sit behind your computer and call Chinese people who've experienced the sort of things you're saying never happened liars...if you feel so strongly about it, you should explain your reasoning to some of them...maybe if you heard from forced comfort women what they went through directly to your face, your scepticism about testimony wouldn't be such.



100% correct. But analogy can be used to get your point across to people who just don't get it and need a little help.




Once again, 100% right but you did make an admirable effort to get your story across.

Lol. Did you miss your class for "common sense?"

Yes, I am dismissing your opinions as mere bull$hit because they are. Your accusations are false and lack supporting evidence. Why do I need to think of a logical reply when the former is so idiotic?



Please back this up.

I never accused you of being brainwashed even though most signs point this way for you as indexed from your previous posts. On what basis would you call me brainwashed? Simply because I disagree?

You are a pathetic troll who is the perfect candidate for a concentration camp. Maybe then the world would be rid of your absolute stupidity.

This is the last post I will be reading from you, do us all a favor and shoot yourself. Good riddance.

Statements like these really require bad taste and manners. Really.

Japan does not brainwash its citizens because there is a democratic procedure for choosing what they are educated. See my other post to see the process for textbook adoption. Plus, if you still think that Japanese citizens are brainwashed despite the democratic procedure behind textbook adoption, I'll have you known, I was educated in America. However, in China, the Chinese government writes up every textbook and says whatever it likes. China's blatant anti-Japanese education in teh last decade+ and the blaring of anti-Japanese tv and movies and the arresting of any dissenting opinion constitutes as brainwashing.

As for the Chinese atrocities, I'll mention the most famous ones. The First Nanking incident in 1927 and the Tsushu Massacre in 1937. What the Chinese accuse Japanese military of, I can easily turn around and accuse China of.

BT you missed my point. The whole point of ANY analogy is to ignore the details of the obviously more complex issue in reality. It serves merely to be a simplified structure of expression so the main gist of idea is carried across to the reader - that's you. By making up an even more complex story (though I enjoyed reading it), I get the impression that you thought I was going to actually sustain a thorough realistic argument through the analogy. If it was the case in your interpretation, then you are mistaken (because it was never meant to be so). Also noticed I kept the story short and refrained myself from adding other minor scenarios, which clearly demonstrates their equivalence to various diplomatic struggles betwen China and Japan. Delving into those scenarios was not of my concern in this discussion. For one thing, I cannot possibility comprehend the justification to lead a full scale invasion under any harsh circumstances of friction between any two countries in Asia.

Do you believe China wanted to invade Japan?

Also, has China ever invaded Japan in the last, say 200 years?

Barker, why the heck do you think there is no propaganda and government influence in social affairs in democratic nations? Do you think there will be no government corruption and scandals just because a nation is democratic? Many people these days seem to think Democracy solves everything, i swear!

Let's have this scenario.

Some high up there politician wants his view on a certain issue to be taught in the education system. He goes to a private textbook company, offers to pork barrel for it and grant it other incentives in exchange for some PAC contribution to a campaign and some stuff to add on to textbooks. This is a possible scenario. It is happening in Japan right now per se, let's use the national anthem thing for example. Teachers are forced to "force" their students to recite it every morning in some schools, and if they do not, they'll either get fired or black-listed. Students in the US has the choice to not cite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, but at the very least they have to stand up to show proper respect. Teachers don't get dinged for that.

Well Col, in a country where patriotism is already established like America, there's no need to force its students to respect their national anthem and flag. In a country where patriotism is a taboo and carries a negative connotation, the county has to take drastic actions in order to continue to remain a country. Recent Japanese studies showed that about 90% of Japanese students never paid respect to the flag or the national anthem and many did so out of deliberate hatred for their own country.

Yes, politicians do affect the textbooks. This is why Japan's textbooks are so leftist. Japanese textbooks teaches history through the lens of "class struggles" and teach that Japan is an evil country for WWII actions. This kind of teaching is making the children of Japan hate the "ruling class."

Democracy is a better of system of government than fascism or communism. We learned that lesson from what we saw in the 20th century. It is clear that a country where the people have the right to think, say, and do whatever they want as long as it is within the established realm of reality, the people are happier and rational solutions to problems are born.

freefallz, you're right, my extremely convoluted analogy was terrible. But so was your simplified analogy. Argument by analogy just doesn't work because they can be either really hard to follow (ie mine) or plain oversimplified (ie yours). And what is "BT"? The fact that Chinese people are unable to see why Japan was forced into WWII is sad. Japan is still labeled an aggressor in China while countries like America are changing their textbooks to provide a more liberal understanding of WWII. Textbooks in America are now choosing to avoid calling Japan an aggressor and show that America was very responsible for Japan going to WWII. China needs to relax its control over the people's education. Democracy and free research is the only way facts can be revealed. When freedom of speech is denied, like in China, there's no way true history can be taught.

Once again, I must direct everyone to understand barkerintokyo better by reading this article...it exactly describes a person like him.

http://www.cgs.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ws/workshop_040625.eng.htm

Also, unlike some other right-wing japanese who try to tone down their denial theories with some kind of truth/reality, this guys goes all the way and denies Japan was ever responsible for WWII and that it wasn't even an aggressor...truly President Truman made the right decision in August 1945...though I personally believe Hirohito should have took it like a man and admitted his own responsibility and be hanged for it...the fact that his progeny lives on bothers me.

Japan committed many atrocities during WWII and it is well documented and accepted by almost everyone less a few isolated individuals like BIT, please refer to this site to find out more about the massacre of Philippinos in true Japanese fashion prior to the liberation of Manila.

http://www.battlingbastardsbataan.com/som.htm

As a moral responsibility, I will continue to educate all my friends and learn more about WWII history in Asia myself. More educational materials to come.

Once again, I must direct everyone to understand barkerintokyo better by reading this article...it exactly describes a person like him.

http://www.cgs.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ws/workshop_040625.eng.htm

Also, unlike some other right-wing japanese who try to tone down their denial theories with some kind of truth/reality, this guys goes all the way and denies Japan was ever responsible for WWII and that it wasn't even an aggressor...truly President Truman made the right decision in August 1945...though I personally believe Hirohito should have took it like a man and admitted his own responsibility and be hanged for it...the fact that his progeny lives on bothers me.

Japan committed many atrocities during WWII and it is well documented and accepted by almost everyone less a few isolated individuals like BIT, please refer to this site to find out more about the massacre of Philippinos in true Japanese fashion prior to the liberation of Manila.

http://www.battlingbastardsbataan.com/som.htm

As a moral responsibility, I will continue to educate all my friends and learn more about WWII history in Asia myself. More educational materials to come.

Once again, I must direct everyone to understand barkerintokyo better by reading this article...it exactly describes a person like him.

http://www.cgs.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ws/workshop_040625.eng.htm

Also, unlike some other right-wing japanese who try to tone down their denial theories with some kind of truth/reality, this guys goes all the way and denies Japan was ever responsible for WWII and that it wasn't even an aggressor...truly President Truman made the right decision in August 1945...though I personally believe Hirohito should have took it like a man and admitted his own responsibility and be hanged for it...the fact that his progeny lives on bothers me.

Japan committed many atrocities during WWII and it is well documented and accepted by almost everyone less a few isolated individuals like BIT, please refer to this site to find out more about the massacre of Philippinos in true Japanese fashion prior to the liberation of Manila.

http://www.battlingbastardsbataan.com/som.htm

As a moral responsibility, I will continue to educate all my friends and learn more about WWII history in Asia myself. More educational materials to come.