Why all Vietnamese should hate the USA


I'm a 100% democrat, no doubt about it. As radically as you are. This being said, I think that even though the people in the USA believe they live in a democracy, they live in fact in the most evil criminal state that has ever existed, and that Vietnam was very unfortunate to be their #1 victim.


We could start another thread with this hate problem alone.

>> The USA is responsible for millions of deaths every decade world-wide. Throughout the last 50 years, the USA has been by far the most generous and enthusiastic funder and supporter of world terrorism. They are not just the biggest sponsor of terrorism. They are also in the top 10 countries which have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Vietnam should never forget this, and all Vietnamese should never think of pardoning any of the American crimes in Vietnam, ever.

Subsidiary questions:
How the Vietnam War started?
http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html

What's the American Democracy?
http://www.krysstal.com/#democracy

USA: "why do they hate us so much?"
http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html

Don't forget the human rights violated by the Totalitarian government in place. Such as the death "Re education camps". Both sides were in the wrong.

are you guys proud to live in vietnam?

do you like living in a communist country?
do you like being killed for expresing your opinion?
do you like your leader? you dont mind, that he kills his own people, and rapes girls?
this is who runs your country. a loser

so, you hate the USA, i can understand that, but yours country, is corrupt.

Are you talking about the Vietnamese in America or the Vietnamese in Vietnam?

Democracy.

But if that leads us to become America's b!tch then communism.

Every Vietnamese should denoucne the bourgeois parasitic prick named Johannis who raves about the glory of the communist revolution and Vietnamese government while dining on high French cruisine in a free society. He also sexing up multiple Parisan women that he calls his "girlfriends" while praising how the communist government tries to increase morality in Vietnamese society.

You said ARVN soldiers killed your family. I wonder how we missed you....what a tragedy for the world. One less hyprocritical prick. This is truly a blemish on ARVN record. For this, I apologize.

Vietnamese in Vietnam, USA is a free, country, and country of opertunity. and still people hate it. dont forget all the horrors that took place in other countries, were not the "bad guys". try to image if the USA just stoped helping the world. how about we, just stop giving other countries billions of dollars, maybe we should just let the county of iraq suffer.

**^^that was sarcasm**, the world would be a sad, sad, place had we not taken action. who got rid of Hitler? we did. who put an end to japans killing crase? we did. who SAVED europe, the USA. And nobody seems to notice, or care, when over 3000 americans are burned in the world trade towers. well, we noticed all right.

Yeah but we're not Europeon, why should we be grateful for the U.S stopping Hitler.

Now as a Vietnamese, I can tell you that America's intervention in the war has killed millions of my people, mining the country where children still get blown up today and using chemical warfare which causes defects.

So why should I see past all that and think the U.S is some great country just because it saved Euopre when my own home is already fu-ked up by American bombings,mining,chemical warfare etc?

What has a Vietnamese ever done to an American to deserve it? At least the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour, but what have we ever done to America?

My family flea to the United States in order to pursuit the “American Dream” and what a dream it has been. I would have never thought it was possible to create a multi-million dollar business fresh off the boat with very little English knowledge. This truly IS the land of the free. I can completely understand you do not like of the US but for my family, it has been the greatest thing to ever happen to us of any generation ever. I would never again want to live anywhere else. I have the opportunity to have a good education and to set up a safe free and wonderful life for the rest of my future generations. This is only my story and I thought you might like to hear it. Thank you for listening with understandment.

In reply to the topic, I think the US has rapidity stated many times that they were wrong about the Korean War (is this what is being discussed?). They have agreed to sign a few peace treaties but the emperor himself went against all of the treaties he himself signed with the US. The US made a mistake, admitted to it, and wanted to ask for forgiveness and went to make peace treaties, but the emperor, from what I understand, was backstabbing by going against it. They have done their share by helping South Korea, but since they are willingly forbidden to enter North Korea, they really cannot help out, and it is because of the corrupt government. The US is by no means perfect, I admit. This is the nature of humanity.

Byron, (hmm let's go back over WWII history shall we), we should be grateful because the US stopped Japan which conquered almost all of Asia. Aren't you glad you're not a Japanese serf for imperial Japan today? This is post by the Fool Johnaniss is moronic anyway; I wonder why I even bother.

It was actually the Russians who were the hero's of WW2, they paid the biggest price, but also stoped Nazi Germany from aquireing additional oil supplies from Asia's oil fields. If the Russians would have been defeated, there is no way the USA would of been able to beat them, remember Germany's army was split in half, the Americans only fought half of the Wermacht.

^ True but , too bad we can't change a damn thing ...

True BUT, the US weren't any better than the Japanese. After WW2, they decided to screw Ho Chi Minh who helped saved Allied planes from the Japanese and make Vietnam a slave country of France yet again.

So if I wasn't a Japanese serf, I would be a French serf.

At least Ho Chi Minh and his supporters fought the French who had US help, and freed our country from French Imperialism.

So yes the US fought and helped make Vietnam not a colony of Japan but instead made us a colony of France until Ho Chi Minh defeated the French at Dien Bien Phu and made Vietnam the first colony to ever defeat an Imperial power.

Let me ask you, who funded the Russian army. Who was the biggest supplier to the Soviet Union during WWII? Who sent over weapons, and money? If you don't know the answer then you shouldn't be discussing WWII history. Who then invaded normady, Italy and North Africa and open up a second front? You truly believe the Soviet could have taken Germany on by themselves?

I guess the only one who support you is the dumbass DainamViet. I seen his picture. he look like a retard. He puts up a lot of pictures of beautiful women that he can't get. ANOTHER one of the Losers.

What does his look to do with this discussion. Why don't you be a hero and post your pic here so we can judge about your ability to have a decent discussion.

Iam gonna let your ramblings go, as every one here knows you are nothing more than a raving lunatic..


true, obviously he's really a coward...

Over the line there buddy.

BYRON: I THINK your pride as a vietnamese is hindering the fact that vietnam is a corupt HOLE. there's cultural pride, and then there's this bull$hit national pride that suckers like you have fallen for after being fed too much propaganda..

OKAY, so when i read the topic, i was like, "this must be some slanderous propaganda to insnuate hate"... and then i read it and here's my say.

Why should vietnamese (people) hate the USA?

what do you mean by this? where should this "HATE"per se, be directed towards? the USA is a nation? Therefore, according to whoever started this topic (OR the topic to which this thread is responding to), vietnamese people should hate the USA, its government, culture, beliefs, PEOPLE and the overall general automacy that is associated with the USA?

You forget that a nation is run by representatives of the people and they (the POWER) is ultimately the decision makers... so i'm just saying that it is implausible/irrational/illogical to hate the USA and more importantly, americans for something that assjack political figures instigated and retarded army official's actions in the war?


thats stupid.

be more specific.

Hmmmmm you say you want to fight cruel Vietnamese government monsters.

Well here is a quote for you my friend.



This quote should also be given to the masses who demonstrated in the lynching of a Vietnamese man who was exercising his right of freedom of speech in America by putting up a photo of Ho Chi Minh in his own store.

He who fights monsters should make sure he does not become a monster himself.

While I do support the current government, I would never force my beliefs or hurt people physically or mentally just because they have opposite viewpoints.

tell that to your government.

The man wasn't lynched by the way. he went to jail for illegally pirating videos. He was a criminal.

Yeah he went to jail for pirating videos, but I never argued against that. I'm arguing about how the masses basically became angry mobs just because he had a picture of Ho Chi Minh.

I don't support everything the government does, but I would prefer them being in power rather and having a stable Vietnam free of wars right now.

Again lets all be calm here and debate in a calm manner and heed the advice of Nietzshe.

haha...I'm a anti-government activist. I'm not stupid enough to that. You can post your picture though.

DaiNamViet is a dumbass. He's one of worst commies. I had conversation with this fool in the past.

Super, please ban me! I'm tire off all this racist crap. I'm tire of you letting racist comments slip by and then warning people for stupid crap. I need time to do homework in college. Please, you morally righteous suck-up, just ban me. I'll still visit sometimes. Maybe even say hello to Ben. This is a great site, but there are too many stupid people posting.



Haha...do you know who Nietzsche inspired Byron. He's the author of the superman theory and one of Hitler's favor philosphers. Yes, Byron, let's listen to Nietzche.

For the record Iam not a commie supporter , just whats best for VN, unlike you who wants to start another Vietnam war , whois the real fool ??

There's one main difference between the USA and German IIIrd Reich Nazis: they have a much better propaganda apparel: Hollywood.

>>Since 2001-9-11, US citizens have been asking Why do they hate us so much? For most US citizens, this is a rhetorical question. They don't really want to know why. They just want to voice their belief that they are the best country in the world and have never done anything wrong. On the contrary, so they believe, they have been the most generous and helpful country in the world. Unfortunately, the facts are quite different. The USA is very good at media manipulation. Their propaganda techniques would have made Goebbels faint with delight. The USA has helped the world, but just as often, they have helped themselves -- to the resources and well-being of the world. US foreign policy is openly based completely on national self-interest, not international cooperation. The only kind of cooperation the USA understands is one-way cooperation where other countries cooperate with the USA. Other countries must do what the USA requires or be punished.

Having good advertising/propaganda technique is not in itself a bad thing, but it does mean that US citizens can't see the world clearly from within their own environment. The USA is in many ways an excellent country. The problem is that this is so often at cost to the rest of the world, both in wealth and lives. State-of-the-art media manipulation ensures that most US citizens don't know what is being done in their name. US Americans are given the mushroom treatment by their government and media, but this does not exonerate them from the responsibility to seek the facts for themselves
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If you're an American, then you probably already have a thorough education about corruption, killing, raping, better than any people in the world, haven't you! here, a scholarly text about how to kill and rape the Vietnamese innocents:

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/...reher_Rape.html

Americans' tactics:
1. Invade any weaker country.
2. Kill whoever they want: All deads are "communists".
3. Cover-up with US "free press": the ennemy is always wrong, not US.
4. Continue the cover-up at all levels, continue the killing, raping -- drop all the bombs until the US military have got no more bombs, and when the US treasury go bankrupt, then it's time to retreat, with or without honor.




That's only a problem of objective knowledge and of objective conscience. Then you live with it.




The Vietnamese Labour Party only took the name of "Communist Party" after the end of the war, probably to mark their solidarity with all other oppressed people of the world. Of course, during that war, they didn't buy their armaments from the US to combat the US! They bought them from US's ennemies in the Cold War.



Read my answer to Deutsch, above.

>>About 3000 innocent civilians were killed on 2001-9-11. This is a tiny token compared the suffering inflicted on the world by the USA. (Perhaps I should mention that the murder rate by guns in the USA is about 110 per million per annum, or about 30,000 per annum for the whole country. So the deaths on 2001-9-11 equalled a typical 5 weeks of murders in the USA.) [PS. 2005-1-7: The USA has killed about 150,000 people in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001-9-11. That's a 50-to-1 revenge ratio.]

In the USA, it is said that the terrorists hate the democracy and freedom of the USA and the West. This is complete garbage. Anyone with more than 5 neurons working in their brain knows that this is garbage. People worldwide admire the good things of the USA and hate the bad things. US citizens must do some homework to find out what crimes, barbarism and atrocities are committed in their name. It's the same old story - the people are good, but the government is bad. The difference in a democracy is that the people choose their government (at least in theory). So in a democracy, the people are responsible for the crimes and evil of their government. People who trumpet the virtues of their democracy should remember that they are responsible for the crimes of their government. There are so many good people in the USA, isn't it a shame they're not running the country.

The USA has built up a deep reservoir of hate against it. The reservoir of hate has become much deeper since 2001-9-11. Sometimes the dam wall breaks a little. But if the USA does not open its eyes soon, the dam wall will burst wide open and unleash the entire reservoir. The suicide hijackings are just the first in a series of anti-USA actions which are sure to continue. If you whip an angry lion, it does not lie down and roll over. A country which has a shoot'em up approach to world politics should not be surprised when some of their victims take the same attitude. Since the USA has been terrorizing the world for the last 100 years, they can't be surprised if a little terror blows back at them. If the USA continues to treat other countries of the world as provinces which need to be suppressed, they could soon find that no US citizen will be safe without bodyguards in almost any part of the world.
<<

The above is an anwer to cranberrijooce's question and claim (mainly: American citizens are not responsible for what their governments and their country's wrong-doings).


The USA are the all-categories champions for "colateral damage" (ratio: 20 innocents/1 military) and thus of "friendly fire" (generally 20% of GIs die from friendly fire)

They are also champions in redefining words in the American-English dictionaries.



Well, that's the Hell of the US Democracy.

on herosword, I've ignored him since months for being the most stupid
non-Vietnamese who wants to participate in all discussions in the Vietnamese section.
.

He's like every bad American stereotype rolled into one lol.

You have to look at the quality of the idiot who started this thread. His background, belief, etc. This dumbass has gotten shot down by another member named Doan Du in the past. He's like 80 something years old but he's still acts like a kids. He will say things like, "I ignore you. take that. Now I don't read your post anymore. Aren't you sad?" Not in those exact words but one gets the idea.

So, considering the source; should anyone even take his opinion seriously? There are so Vietnamese who love the US so him telling us why we should hate it is retarded. This guy also believe we should love the communist government that caused many of use to have to leave our homeland. So his logic --> hate people who welcome you and give you asylum from a tyrannous government --> love a government that does uncountable harm to your family and homeland.

Aa! Too much to read. But why should Viets hate the USA? I love the USA. Hmmm... but thinking of all those bombs that were dropped onto the innocent Viet civilians is making me arrggh...

Hating and not being able to do anything about it for your country really means nothing. Those who follow blindly one government or another are only sheeps. If you have not seen it so far, then you have not really looked with open eyes. It is all about money and power for those at the top. Vietnam can be a major world power, but not so because there is not enough us think big.

Religion, communism, socialism, democracy... all are words to act as wools to drape over your eyes so that you cannot see how much the ordinary people suffer so that those at the top can live the lives of powers and riches. I am not saying that anyone is bad or anyone is good. It is just human nature. If I lack the physical strength and the intellectual power to dominate those around me to be at the top, then it is my own fault and not anyone else's. Even in my world today, I do all that I can... I don't complaint about how bad it is, rather I strive to for the top because it is survival of the fittest.

You're a crazy social darwinist. You know there is something call morality. One can strive to be the best, but one can must also have a conscience. If all human beings care about is domination and power, why, we would be no better than animals. There are people out there who strive not only for their individual good but also the general good. Lighten up, friend. Life is not all about supressing your enemy and stepping on the little guy to get to the top. Having a conscience and living by that conscience so you can sleep well at night is something that possibly money can't even buy.

So you think you're on the top of world? I think you misunderstand "survival of the fittest". It's not mean the strongest, most healthy, smartest will survival. It means the one most adapted to the enviroment will survival. The are situation when even the smartest die out (Killingfield, Khmer Rouge). Helping the weak is not against the evolution, nature. Helping the weak occure among all the species because it will benefit us all. Helping the weak mean keeping the variety among us. It will garantee our humankind willl survive. The world is constantly changing. Get off your high horse.

these "why should hate usa threads again". hmm. most of these people posting this $hit up are probably americans who get no pussy. that's why waste time to rile up $hit.

Acutually, it's worst. It's a Frenchman/Vietnamese communist pussy who likes to talk from his @$$. He's got the Frenchmen arrogance intermix with the Vietnamese communist tendency to lie and distort the truth.

Oh, so France is "cool" in your book?

Of course being Vienamese, no one has been taught more about morality than us... is that right. However, for the purpose of discussion, morality is only relative. It is only what it is because we were taught that is what is right. What if we were taught the opposite then the lives that we are living now are immoral.

So let me ask you this, is homosexuality immoral? If you believe what science has claimed that a person was born homosexual then that person never had a choice. Is society going to roll back the rules on morality in this case? What about divorces? Ok, is it about morality or is it all about nationalism. Will we forego our moral values in order to gain strength and riches for country? Look at the Muslims, I have not read the Koran, but they claim that for their religion, they must kill all the Infadels (non-Muslims) so that their religion and nations be strong. To die while killing Infadels, whether it be innocent kids or defenseless women, that person will go directly heaven, and will wed 72 virgins. The teaching of the number 2 most popular religion in the world can't be so flawed, can it?

Of course I am not such an extremist that I will forego my Vietnamese roots and my culture. It is too heavily implanted in me. However, I try hard to be more tolerant as I can see the perspectives of others, and I can understand the reason people feel the way they do. From time to time, I will take the extreme opposite view regardless, just for sake of debate and sometimes learning from others.

It is nevertheless, discouraging and frustrating sometimes for me to see certain people foolishly devoting themselves to such blind causes while those leading them enjoying the fruits of the labor their foolish sheeps. Well, people'd rather be led around like sheeps becase they are too lazy to think. Did you ever read about that bus stop pchych study?

So you're also a relativist. You are right that people can be taught to percieve events and actions as moral or immoral. We see that in the communist system in Vietnam where youths are brainwashed about what is acceptable in terms of human rights abuse in the name of state security. Vietnam is a paradigm of how a combination of government policy coupled with a misguided idealogy can create conditions that breed corruption and general immorality. While the communists government prides itself on fighting a "moral" war against Western influences such Vietanamese actors dying their hair or actresses wearing revealing clothings, it neglects the fight against the culture of bribery, intellectual piracy, the exploitation of children and women that have become the norm and acceptable even among many "honest" people in Vietnam and (even some Vietnamese abroad).

That being said, there are international norms that have been developed through the century based on philosophy from Confucius, Buddha, Jesus, and Locke for example that establish norms for the treatment of human beings towards each other. These philosophy when practiced have created conditions where human beings can pursue their happiness in a state of security. As these moral precepts become more and more universally accepted, I think we are seeing more of a move towards absolutism rather than relativism. Relativity implies constantly changing attitudes and ideas. I.e. one set of moral is right for today but not right for tommorrow. In such instances, it is a dog eat dog world (survival of the fittest) as you said. But in instances of absolute morals, your conscience guides you in every situations even when following the moral course is not beneficial. I am not suggesting that nation-state in dealing with each other should have absolute morals (because that's another issues that needs to be dissected on the basis of international relations theory), but that society collectively can benefit when individuals adopt absolute morals.

Like you, I am frustrated by the "sheeps" in society that follow the shepard blindly to the slaughter house. Blind Patriotism, is not only damaging to the individual but to the society that those individuals live in.

Exactly, you have said it. The key is "adaptation". Strong or weak, if referring to strength is not what I mean. A willow, though appears weak but will survive a high wind better than for example an oak. The process of adapting, surviving and as well making it to the top the "heap" is complex. I am not saying that I have gotten it figured out; I am saying that "Darwinsm" has got to do with so much that is on going in this world.

We side tracked to define darwinsim, but you have to agree with me that in order adapt well to the enviornment we need to be smart....yes? You said "smart" Khmer Rouge died-out because of not being able to adapt, so conversely, the Khmer Rouge needed to be stupid in order to adapt and survive. I don't think you mean that, do you? Being smart is absolutely required in every situation, some more than others, but I'd like to have a little "smartness" in reserve just case.

Nevertheless, my whole point in answering the post was hating the USA does Vietnam no good. Well, maybe some good if hate was going to be used positively as a source motivation. Recognizing and adapting, here goes adapting again, to the "new" world will help Vietnam, someday, to become a major world power.

How do you interprete adaptation? Is it mean to change yourself to adapt with the enviroment or it just mean: they fit/adapt to the enviroment at that moment. I'm talking about the second one here. We're talking about evolution: species like non-human don't have a will to change themself to adapt to the enviroment.

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So are you saying that homosexuality is a choice? I think that it is a choice as to whether they want to come out of the "closet". I lived in SF for almost 10 years, and I know many homosexuals. From what I observed of their way of life, and it was not fun, in my opinion, I think that being a homosexual is more of a burden then a gift. If I was in that position, whether it be my choice or my creator's choice, I'd never come out of the closet. I can be completely wrong because "to each his own" of course.

regarding Hate. It sure can poison your system, thinking negatively all the time, especially when you're living in the soup of it all....regarding US in general, the US has not done one decent thing in the world since WW2 and the aftermath in Europe. The Vietnam tragedy certainly could have been avoided. Ho tried to get through to us and was snubbed. The disoriented arrogent French ignored Ho and got the US to underwrite their intervention in the Nam. We should have figured out that the V were not that crazy about China to say the least and that the whole country used the anglo-arab alphabet. I mean how dumb could we have been. then the lies. That's the stuff that sends me up the wall!! How easy it could have been to work with Ho and, oh build a big Mekong electric dam etc. The V are obviously an extremely enterprising lot. That dosen't sound very potentially commi to me. What kind of $hit are the Wash. DC americans on anyway. I'm very proud to have been a protesting hippie but sometimes at temple I run into a gringo that speaks really good V (ex cia ) and he and his are just like the Cubans that didn't want "alian" Gonzales to go back home after his mother died fleeing Cuba.
There is no getting sense out of people. Good luck on finding an honest perspective while staying clear of hate. I believe love of something will do the trick. Tom biet!

Of course this is not a thread about hate, but about knowing it, and being aware that this is still happening today. All Vietnamese should hate the USA, but this doesn't mean that they would, or could.


Now, beyond lip service, what is Democracy? and what is Communism? what do we really know about Vietnam? Why some Vietnamese hate their own people so much, when they should turn their hate to who were the hard-line criminals of millions of innocents in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, and also in so many other countries around the world.



Vietnam was the #1 victim for more than 50 years, now as you said there's nothing we can do about it...




That's very sad indeed. Please read also this Part II about Media manipulation in the USA, which explains now how all this could have happened.

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28616

We will need to rebuild the devastated country, keep the peace going and defend it, and always be aware that this mad horror could happen altogether anytime again.

We have no time for hate. But that doesn't mean that we shall forget.

Closing in on Vietnam
by Derrick Z. Jackson

It is $80 billion and halfway home to Vietnam.

The fresh $80 billion just requested by President Bush pushes the war costs of Iraq and the amazing shrinking asterisk of Afghanistan (Osama been where?) past the $300 billion mark.

The estimated cost of Vietnam in current dollars was $584 billion, according to the Congressional Research Office. Iraq has already cost more in current dollars than either the Civil War or World War I. It is about to pass the Korean War. We are on pace to pass Vietnam in two or three years.

As Bush appears dead set on certifying Iraq's elections, even if it has the credibility of the Florida recount, his $80 billion brings us closer to certifying Iraq as, in financial terms, the most terrifying war on terror in American history.

Americans were made to believe we could defuse the most dangerous nation on earth in a bargain-basement rout. When former White House economic adviser Lawrence Lindsay dared to suggest that an invasion would cost between $100 billion and $200 billion, White House budget director Mitch Daniels popped up to say the estimate was ''very, very high."

Daniels gave a cost of between $50 billion and $60 billion. Lindsay's estimate was also attacked by former treasury secretary Paul O'Neill who said, ''I don't know what Larry was thinking."

There was General Eric Shinseki, the Army chief of staff who dared to say in a Senate hearing that ''something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers" would be required after the invasion to maintain ''control over a piece of geography that's fairly significant with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other problems." Shinseki said, ''It takes significant ground force presence to maintain a safe and secure environment to ensure that the people are fed, that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go along with administering a situation like this."

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz rebuked that sober assessment. He said Shinseki was ''wildly off the mark."

With each supplemental request, Iraq becomes the most wildly off the mark mission since Vietnam, making the neo-cons the biggest con artists of our generation.

Once they were looking for Osama. They forgot him trying to find Saddam Hussein. They claimed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction pointed at American air ducts and waterways. Instead we became as big a weapon of mass destruction as Saddam ever was -- assuming you believe the thousands of Iraqi civilians needlessly killed in our invasion were in fact human beings.

Vice President d!ck Cheney once boasted that American forces would be ''greeted as liberators." Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said he had ''broad and deep evidence" that once Saddam was captured, his former soldiers would throw down their arms and lock arms in celebration over a free Iraq.

But even the very capture of Saddam did not stop the tailspin of chaos. Nearly two years after the invasion, Iraq more resembles civil war than civil society. There were just as many attacks against US soldiers, Iraqi police, and civilians in the last month, 2,736, as there were in September.

Politically, Bush has nowhere to go but Vietnam. At his press conference Wednesday, he was so bent on displaying the sunny side of chaos, he said nothing in his opening remarks about the US soldiers who died on the single deadliest day of the war for US troops.

On the very same day that Bush said, ''Millions of Iraqi voters will show their bravery, their love of country, and their desire to live in freedom," one of the American unit commanders in Baghdad said the nation's capital was still ''enemy territory."

While Bush was declaring in a most personal way, ''I firmly planted the flag of liberty," Raad al-Naqib, a Baghdad dentist, told the New York Times, ''The Americans, they are part of the terrorism. They are so frightened, anything that happens to them, they start shooting right away."

With the predictions of a protracted occupation becoming more solid by the day, comparisons of Iraq with the costliest war in American history are no longer out of the question.

In today's dollars, World War II cost $2.9 trillion. Yale economist William Nordhaus predicted a long conflict in Iraq might cost up to $1.9 trillion. Economist Warwick McKibbin, a board member of the Australian central bank, said a conflict lasting to 2010 could cost more than $3.5 trillion.

It is certain that we are there in a massive way until close to 2010. Bush said in April 2004 that American forces would stay ''not one day more" than necessary.

But his military's own assessment is that it will take three to five years to train a competent Iraqi security force. Once upon a time, Bush and the neo-cons promised a rout so complete that they talked openly about a ''catastrophic success" in which grateful Iraqis might stampede American troops and create a humanitarian crisis.

The request for another $80 billion only serves to confirm that success was its own catastrophe.

America is just another bully just like any other bully in the history of the world. its no better or no worse.

I love the United States. If anyone that isn't living in the United States, they are missing out!

I like America, but I don't agree with U.S. Foreign Policy.