Check out this old Dong son drum and compare it with the drum in the other pic, don't you think they look similar. Could it be that all this time Vietnamese are really a separate branch of Dai and they didn't even know it.
Full Version: Dai Viet
Is it true that Dai Viet was name after Zhuoug Dai from southern China. Is it possible that the Vietnamese people today originated from Dai?
Check out this old Dong son drum and compare it with the drum in the other pic, don't you think they look similar. Could it be that all this time Vietnamese are really a separate branch of Dai and they didn't even know it.
Check out this old Dong son drum and compare it with the drum in the other pic, don't you think they look similar. Could it be that all this time Vietnamese are really a separate branch of Dai and they didn't even know it.
I think anyone would agree that Vietnamese along with some minority people in southern China and SE Asia are related, but the extend of the relation is hard to figure out or quantify it
So you're saying it's possible that the ancient Don Song civilization could have been ethnic Dai.
Do Vietnamese still use those drums for certain rituals or anything like that?
Do Vietnamese still use those drums for certain rituals or anything like that?
Dong Song drums can be found in many part of south east Asia and souther China (part of which used to belong to Viet Nam in ancient time). However most of the drums are found in norther Vietnam which date to be the earliest. There were also other bronze artifacts found near the Hong valley included arrowheads, javelin points, butchering implements, fishhooks, sickles and statue of a chicken. We cannot jump to a conclusion yet since the Dong-Song culture is still subject of research and speculation. However one thing recent researchers have dismissed is that the claim of bronze came from China and was borrowed by people of the south. In the words of one witter, " bronze casting began in South East Asia and was later borrowed by the Chinese, not vice versa as the Chinese scholars has always claimed" (Nether, p. 186)
Dong-son culture was well influential, I'm speculating that the Dai might in fact adopted the costume or they were lost brothers and sister of the Vietnamese (which i doubt). Like the Moung, although different name but they are lost brothers and sister of the Vietnamese. Evidence, their language and culture closely related to the Vietnamese. They fled or migrated in the high land south of the red delta or Hong river. Vietnamese scholar believe that the separation of the Moung and Vietnamese took place during the oppressive T'ang dynasty. There is a study suggest that the Dong-son culture of northern Vietnam had important links with Tibet Burman cultures in Yunam, with Thai culture in Yunan and Laos, and especially, with Mon-Khmer culture in Laos, particularly on the Tran-ninh plateau(Tran Manh Phu, pp. 286-287, 289-92)
Most Scholars agreed that "the formation of the Dong-son bronze culture was deeply related to the people of the Hong River plain". (Chikamori, p.90) The red delta basin was home of the Hung kings and the Trung sisters.
And DaiViet was clearly a Vietnamese nation.
Dong-son culture was well influential, I'm speculating that the Dai might in fact adopted the costume or they were lost brothers and sister of the Vietnamese (which i doubt). Like the Moung, although different name but they are lost brothers and sister of the Vietnamese. Evidence, their language and culture closely related to the Vietnamese. They fled or migrated in the high land south of the red delta or Hong river. Vietnamese scholar believe that the separation of the Moung and Vietnamese took place during the oppressive T'ang dynasty. There is a study suggest that the Dong-son culture of northern Vietnam had important links with Tibet Burman cultures in Yunam, with Thai culture in Yunan and Laos, and especially, with Mon-Khmer culture in Laos, particularly on the Tran-ninh plateau(Tran Manh Phu, pp. 286-287, 289-92)
Most Scholars agreed that "the formation of the Dong-son bronze culture was deeply related to the people of the Hong River plain". (Chikamori, p.90) The red delta basin was home of the Hung kings and the Trung sisters.
And DaiViet was clearly a Vietnamese nation.
Nanyue (Chinese: 南越; pinyin: Nányuè; Cantonese Jyutping: Naam4 Jyut6 ; Wade-Giles: Nan Yüeh; Vietnamese: Nam Việt) was an ancient kingdom that consisted of parts of the modern Chinese provinces of Guangdong, Guangxi, Yunnan and much of modern northern Vietnam. The kingdom was established by the Chinese general Zhao Tuo (Traditional Chinese: 趙佗; pinyin: Zhào Tuō; Vietnamese: Triệu Đà) of the Qin dynasty who assimilated the customs of the Yue peoples and central China in his territory.[1] Its capital was named Panyu (番禺), in today's Guangzhou, China. In Vietnam, the name Triệu Dynasty (based on the Vietnamese pronunciation of the surname Zhào) is used to refer to the lineage of kings of Nanyue, and by extension the era of Nanyue rule.
QUOTE(BradPittJolie @ Jan 22 2009, 09:36 PM) [snapback]4097365[/snapback]
Is it true that Dai Viet was name after Zhuoug Dai from southern China. Is it possible that the Vietnamese people today originated from Dai?
Check out this old Dong son drum and compare it with the drum in the other pic, don't you think they look similar. Could it be that all this time Vietnamese are really a separate branch of Dai and they didn't even know it.
Check out this old Dong son drum and compare it with the drum in the other pic, don't you think they look similar. Could it be that all this time Vietnamese are really a separate branch of Dai and they didn't even know it.
Possible Vietnamese are really a separate branch of Dai and they didn't even know it. The whole truth still buried in the past.
The word Đại Việt 大越 means the Great Việt. It has nothing to do with Dai people from China. For God's sake, you're making people think the name Đại Việt kingdom mean ethnic Dai and ethnic Viet coming together 
.
This character 大 has two pronunciations in Vietnamese. One is Đại and one is Thái.
When it's pronounced "Đại", it means "Great, Large, Big"
When it's pronounced "Thái", it means "the ethnic Tai"
Check out the Chinese-Vietnamese dictionary to see for yourself. The character has two distinct pronunciations in Viet.
http://www.bestbeez.com/HvDict/servlet/xCh...0&LineIdx=0
Vietnamese descended from the Lạc Việt 雒越/駱越/貉越 or Luo Yue people. We worship the Lạc Việt people as our ancestors; every year, we have holidays and festivals in memory and honor of our Lạc Việt ancestors. We don't worship any Dai or Tai people. Neither do we worship people other Yue tribe
The Zhuang people are said to be descendents of the Lạc Việt 貉越 (Luo Yue) and the Tây Âu 西甌(Xi Ou), meaning Luo Yue and Xi Ou could have intermixed and Zhuang people were a result of this. Vietnamese history did mention about a kingdom named Âu Lạc 甌貉, which was a merge of the Lạc tribe and the Âu tribe.
The Tày people (different from Tai people!) that live in mountain of North Vietnam, particularly the ones from Cao Bằng, claim themselves to be descendants of the Âu Việt, and Âu Việt people were mentioned in Viet history and folk tale to be a mountain tribe that co-existed peacefully with the Lạc Việt and helped the Lạc Việt fight against the Qin invasion.
Dai people are said to be descendants of the Điền Việt 滇越 (Dian Yue), and Dian Yue people were never mentioned in Viet history. They're like a foreign group to us.
So only the Nùng (Zhuang) and the Tày of North Vietnam have some close relationship with Vietnamese. This could be easily seen because they have belief similar to belief of Vietnamese people. For example, I read that Zhuang people believe that the frog (or toad) is the rain spirit. This belief is similar to the traditional Vietnamese belief that the frog (or toad) has the ability to call rain. It originates from a Vietnamese folk tale which tells that once upon a time, the god of rain neglected his duty and forgot to make rain for 3 years. The earth faced long drought and creatures on Earth was dying of thirst. One day, the toad decided to make a trip to Heaven to reproach the Heaven for not making rain for 3 years. Then lah lah lah on his way he met other creatures who share their stories lah lah lah and say they want to follow him. Then they all went to Heaven. They were at the Heaven gate but the guard did not let them go in lah lah lah. I forgot how the story goes next, but finally they all met the Heaven and each talked about their problems. The Heaven listened, gave answer to each of them. For the toad, the Heaven said from now on, every time the toad wants rain, he just needs to grind his teeth and the Heaven will hear and make rain. So from then on, every time the toad grinds its teeth, it rains. Vietnamese people have the saying "The toad is the uncle of the Heaven; anyone who beat the toad will be beaten (or punished) by Heaven."
So we see there are some similarity in cultural belief between Vietnamese and the Zhuang. But I have yet seen a similarity between Vietnamese and the Dai. The most important tradition of Dai people is the water-splashing festival and this custom is totally strange to Vietnamese.
.This character 大 has two pronunciations in Vietnamese. One is Đại and one is Thái.
When it's pronounced "Đại", it means "Great, Large, Big"
When it's pronounced "Thái", it means "the ethnic Tai"
Check out the Chinese-Vietnamese dictionary to see for yourself. The character has two distinct pronunciations in Viet.
http://www.bestbeez.com/HvDict/servlet/xCh...0&LineIdx=0
Vietnamese descended from the Lạc Việt 雒越/駱越/貉越 or Luo Yue people. We worship the Lạc Việt people as our ancestors; every year, we have holidays and festivals in memory and honor of our Lạc Việt ancestors. We don't worship any Dai or Tai people. Neither do we worship people other Yue tribe
The Zhuang people are said to be descendents of the Lạc Việt 貉越 (Luo Yue) and the Tây Âu 西甌(Xi Ou), meaning Luo Yue and Xi Ou could have intermixed and Zhuang people were a result of this. Vietnamese history did mention about a kingdom named Âu Lạc 甌貉, which was a merge of the Lạc tribe and the Âu tribe.
The Tày people (different from Tai people!) that live in mountain of North Vietnam, particularly the ones from Cao Bằng, claim themselves to be descendants of the Âu Việt, and Âu Việt people were mentioned in Viet history and folk tale to be a mountain tribe that co-existed peacefully with the Lạc Việt and helped the Lạc Việt fight against the Qin invasion.
Dai people are said to be descendants of the Điền Việt 滇越 (Dian Yue), and Dian Yue people were never mentioned in Viet history. They're like a foreign group to us.
So only the Nùng (Zhuang) and the Tày of North Vietnam have some close relationship with Vietnamese. This could be easily seen because they have belief similar to belief of Vietnamese people. For example, I read that Zhuang people believe that the frog (or toad) is the rain spirit. This belief is similar to the traditional Vietnamese belief that the frog (or toad) has the ability to call rain. It originates from a Vietnamese folk tale which tells that once upon a time, the god of rain neglected his duty and forgot to make rain for 3 years. The earth faced long drought and creatures on Earth was dying of thirst. One day, the toad decided to make a trip to Heaven to reproach the Heaven for not making rain for 3 years. Then lah lah lah on his way he met other creatures who share their stories lah lah lah and say they want to follow him. Then they all went to Heaven. They were at the Heaven gate but the guard did not let them go in lah lah lah. I forgot how the story goes next, but finally they all met the Heaven and each talked about their problems. The Heaven listened, gave answer to each of them. For the toad, the Heaven said from now on, every time the toad wants rain, he just needs to grind his teeth and the Heaven will hear and make rain. So from then on, every time the toad grinds its teeth, it rains. Vietnamese people have the saying "The toad is the uncle of the Heaven; anyone who beat the toad will be beaten (or punished) by Heaven."
So we see there are some similarity in cultural belief between Vietnamese and the Zhuang. But I have yet seen a similarity between Vietnamese and the Dai. The most important tradition of Dai people is the water-splashing festival and this custom is totally strange to Vietnamese.
About the bronze drums, they are found in many places in SEA and Southern China, but the Red River Delta of Vietnam has the highest concentration of all and also the most intricate designs.
Right now, it is agreed among Western scholars that the oldest bronze drums so far are the one found the Red River Delta of North Vietnam.
Chinese records also mention the existence of bronze drums in Jiaozhi 交趾or 交阯 (North Vietnam) two thousands years ago. It was recorded by Ma Yuan 馬援 that Jiaozhi people had bronze drums as their sacred instruments. These bronze drums were used during the revolt of the Trung sisters to raise the fighting spirits of Viet people. After the revolt of the Trung sisters was crushed, Ma Yuan confiscated all the bronze drums in Jiaozhi that he could find, melted them and used the bronze to build a huge bronze pillar. On the bronze pillar carved the line "Bronze pillar falls, Jiaozhi perished" (銅柱折, 交趾滅).
Right now, it is agreed among Western scholars that the oldest bronze drums so far are the one found the Red River Delta of North Vietnam.
Chinese records also mention the existence of bronze drums in Jiaozhi 交趾or 交阯 (North Vietnam) two thousands years ago. It was recorded by Ma Yuan 馬援 that Jiaozhi people had bronze drums as their sacred instruments. These bronze drums were used during the revolt of the Trung sisters to raise the fighting spirits of Viet people. After the revolt of the Trung sisters was crushed, Ma Yuan confiscated all the bronze drums in Jiaozhi that he could find, melted them and used the bronze to build a huge bronze pillar. On the bronze pillar carved the line "Bronze pillar falls, Jiaozhi perished" (銅柱折, 交趾滅).
http://www.hawaii.edu/cseas/pubs/explore/han.html
BTW, the bronze drums found in China, Vietnam and other SEA are different in design. Here are the 4 designs of bronze drums classified by Heger.
The bronze drums found in North Vietnam are mostly Type I.
The bronze drums found in Guangxi of China (where Zhuang people live) are mostly Type II and very few Type I was found
The bronze drums found in Burma are mostly type III
Examples:
Dong Son style found in North Vietnam (Heger Type I)
Zhuang style found in Guangxi, China (Heger Type II and IV)
http://digital.nmh.gov.tw/collection/pda/en/30431.htm
Karen style found in Burma (Heger Type III)
Thailand style? (similar to Burmese style)
See the differences in design of these bronze drums? Bronze drums in North Vietnam are distinct and uniquely different in design from the bronze drums found in China and other SEA countries.
QUOTE
The earliest historical records relating to bronze drums appeared in the Shi Ben, a Chinese book dating from at least the 3rd century BCE. This book is no longer extant; however a small portion of it appears in another classic, the Tongdian by Du You.[3] The Hou Han Shu, a Chinese chronicle of the late Han period compiled in the 5th century CE, describes how the Han dynasty general, Ma Yuan, collected bronze drums from Jiaozhi (northern Vietnam) to melt down and then recast into bronze horses. From that point on, many official and unofficial Chinese historical records contain references to bronze drums. In Vietnam, two 14th century literary works written in Chinese by Vietnamese scholars, the Viet Dien U Linh and the Linh Nam Chich Quai record many legends about bronze drums. Later works such as the Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu, a historical work written in the 15th century, and the Dai Nam Nhat Thong Chi, a book about the historical geography of Vietnam compiled in the late 19th century, also mention bronze drums.[4] Additionally, a wooden tablet found in Vietnam dating from the early 19th century describes the discovery of some bronze drums.
BTW, the bronze drums found in China, Vietnam and other SEA are different in design. Here are the 4 designs of bronze drums classified by Heger.
The bronze drums found in North Vietnam are mostly Type I.
The bronze drums found in Guangxi of China (where Zhuang people live) are mostly Type II and very few Type I was found
The bronze drums found in Burma are mostly type III
Examples:
Dong Son style found in North Vietnam (Heger Type I)
Zhuang style found in Guangxi, China (Heger Type II and IV)
http://digital.nmh.gov.tw/collection/pda/en/30431.htm
Karen style found in Burma (Heger Type III)
Thailand style? (similar to Burmese style)
See the differences in design of these bronze drums? Bronze drums in North Vietnam are distinct and uniquely different in design from the bronze drums found in China and other SEA countries.
good read xigon 
BTW you guys should notice that the star in the center of the Burmese drums is very different from the star in the center of Vietnamese drums too.
So the Dai people named themselves after a word meaning great. wow, it's slowly coming together.
Got any more info?, I'd like to read more on the Zhuong of Dai Viet.
Can you tell me when exactly did the Dai interacted with Mon/Khmer and created the modern Viets we see today.
Got any more info?, I'd like to read more on the Zhuong of Dai Viet.
Can you tell me when exactly did the Dai interacted with Mon/Khmer and created the modern Viets we see today.
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Jan 23 2009, 04:53 AM) [snapback]4098014[/snapback]
http://www.hawaii.edu/cseas/pubs/explore/han.html
BTW, the bronze drums found in China, Vietnam and other SEA are different in design. Here are the 4 designs of bronze drums classified by Heger.
The bronze drums found in North Vietnam are mostly Type I.
The bronze drums found in Guangxi of China (where Zhuang people live) are mostly Type II and very few Type I was found
The bronze drums found in Burma are mostly type III
Examples:
Dong Son style found in North Vietnam (Heger Type I)
Zhuang style found in Guangxi, China (Heger Type II and IV)
http://digital.nmh.gov.tw/collection/pda/en/30431.htm
Karen style found in Burma (Heger Type III)
Thailand style? (similar to Burmese style)
See the differences in design of these bronze drums? Bronze drums in North Vietnam are distinct and uniquely different in design from the bronze drums found in China and other SEA countries.
BTW, the bronze drums found in China, Vietnam and other SEA are different in design. Here are the 4 designs of bronze drums classified by Heger.
The bronze drums found in North Vietnam are mostly Type I.
The bronze drums found in Guangxi of China (where Zhuang people live) are mostly Type II and very few Type I was found
The bronze drums found in Burma are mostly type III
Examples:
Dong Son style found in North Vietnam (Heger Type I)
Zhuang style found in Guangxi, China (Heger Type II and IV)
http://digital.nmh.gov.tw/collection/pda/en/30431.htm
Karen style found in Burma (Heger Type III)
Thailand style? (similar to Burmese style)
See the differences in design of these bronze drums? Bronze drums in North Vietnam are distinct and uniquely different in design from the bronze drums found in China and other SEA countries.
Although they are shaped different, the pattern on the surface look the same proving that they all came from the same people. The bigger more elaborate designs drums could've belong to bigger Dai tribes use for more important rituals. Furthermore, the Dai tribes were known to be scattered in SEA and Southern China explaining why those drums were found in those places whereas the Vietnamese were believe to spawn from out of nowhere to inhabit northern SEA. It is highly possible that the earliest Vietnamese were Dai settlers mixed with Mon/Khmer.
This was happening in the west in Siam so you can't rule out anything. I just don't buy it how Vietnamese grew in that plot of land and made 80 million babies.
Vietnamese shared languages with many neighbor countries.
A Vietnamese linguist pointed out that tradition associated with the Hung King, the word "headman" (phu dao), 'lady or princess" (My noung), and "gentleman or prince" (quang-land) iis shared with a number of Austroasiatic and Austronesian languages in South East Asia, and he theorizes that these words entered Chinese from the southern language. (Hoang Thi Chau, "Nuoc Vang-Lang qua tai lieu ngon ngu" pp41, 46) A word for "maidservant or slave" (xao) is shared with Thai, a word for "people or subjects" (hon) is shared with both Thai and Cham, a word for "assistant headman" (bo-chinh) is shared with Jarai, an Austronesian language in the mountain of central Vietnam. Vietnam also has native words such as "Village or locality" (ke) it is indigenous to the Red Delta (or hong river). All of this suggested that ancient Vietnam was a meeting place for different linguistic cultures. Or it could mean early Vietnamese have many origins. Or early Vietnamese culture was well influential. However, we won't know for sure.
A Vietnamese linguist pointed out that tradition associated with the Hung King, the word "headman" (phu dao), 'lady or princess" (My noung), and "gentleman or prince" (quang-land) iis shared with a number of Austroasiatic and Austronesian languages in South East Asia, and he theorizes that these words entered Chinese from the southern language. (Hoang Thi Chau, "Nuoc Vang-Lang qua tai lieu ngon ngu" pp41, 46) A word for "maidservant or slave" (xao) is shared with Thai, a word for "people or subjects" (hon) is shared with both Thai and Cham, a word for "assistant headman" (bo-chinh) is shared with Jarai, an Austronesian language in the mountain of central Vietnam. Vietnam also has native words such as "Village or locality" (ke) it is indigenous to the Red Delta (or hong river). All of this suggested that ancient Vietnam was a meeting place for different linguistic cultures. Or it could mean early Vietnamese have many origins. Or early Vietnamese culture was well influential. However, we won't know for sure.
That's great information, Xigon.
Reading this post clearly convinced me that this person is a stupid Cambodian troll. Sometimes I really tried to give them some credits because there are some smart and peaceful Cambodian posts here once in a while, but most of the time, they are just trolls and stupid. It really makes it hard to for us to educate them since they don't want to learn either. They don't come here with an intention to learn but to troll.
Reading this post clearly convinced me that this person is a stupid Cambodian troll. Sometimes I really tried to give them some credits because there are some smart and peaceful Cambodian posts here once in a while, but most of the time, they are just trolls and stupid. It really makes it hard to for us to educate them since they don't want to learn either. They don't come here with an intention to learn but to troll.
QUOTE(BradPittJolie @ Jan 23 2009, 11:07 AM) [snapback]4098249[/snapback]
Although they are shaped different, the pattern on the surface look the same proving that they all came from the same people. The bigger more elaborate designs drums could've belong to bigger Dai tribes use for more important rituals. Furthermore, the Dai tribes were known to be scattered in SEA and Southern China explaining why those drums were found in those places whereas the Vietnamese were believe to spawn from out of nowhere to inhabit northern SEA. It is highly possible that the earliest Vietnamese were Dai settlers mixed with Mon/Khmer.
This was happening in the west in Siam so you can't rule out anything. I just don't buy it how Vietnamese grew in that plot of land and made 80 million babies.
This was happening in the west in Siam so you can't rule out anything. I just don't buy it how Vietnamese grew in that plot of land and made 80 million babies.
QUOTE(Legion @ Jan 24 2009, 12:11 AM) [snapback]4098253[/snapback]
Vietnamese shared languages with many neighbor countries.
A Vietnamese linguist pointed out that tradition associated with the Hung King, the word "headman" (phu dao), 'lady or princess" (My noung), and "gentleman or prince" (quang-land) iis shared with a number of Austroasiatic and Austronesian languages in South East Asia, and he theorizes that these words entered Chinese from the southern language. (Hoang Thi Chau, "Nuoc Vang-Lang qua tai lieu ngon ngu" pp41, 46) A word for "maidservant or slave" (xao) is shared with Thai, a word for "people or subjects" (hon) is shared with both Thai and Cham, a word for "assistant headman" (bo-chinh) is shared with Jarai, an Austronesian language in the mountain of central Vietnam. Vietnam also has native words such as "Village or locality" (ke) it is indigenous to the Red Delta (or hong river). All of this suggested that ancient Vietnam was a meeting place for different linguistic cultures. Or it could mean early Vietnamese have many origins. Or early Vietnamese culture was well influential. However, we won't know for sure.
A Vietnamese linguist pointed out that tradition associated with the Hung King, the word "headman" (phu dao), 'lady or princess" (My noung), and "gentleman or prince" (quang-land) iis shared with a number of Austroasiatic and Austronesian languages in South East Asia, and he theorizes that these words entered Chinese from the southern language. (Hoang Thi Chau, "Nuoc Vang-Lang qua tai lieu ngon ngu" pp41, 46) A word for "maidservant or slave" (xao) is shared with Thai, a word for "people or subjects" (hon) is shared with both Thai and Cham, a word for "assistant headman" (bo-chinh) is shared with Jarai, an Austronesian language in the mountain of central Vietnam. Vietnam also has native words such as "Village or locality" (ke) it is indigenous to the Red Delta (or hong river). All of this suggested that ancient Vietnam was a meeting place for different linguistic cultures. Or it could mean early Vietnamese have many origins. Or early Vietnamese culture was well influential. However, we won't know for sure.
I have been following the theory of VIetnam origin and it yielded many interesting facts and one of it is the language. Dr. Nguyen Hy VOng had compiled a cognatic dictionary of all South East Asian Languages (and some indian dialects) to prove that all of Southeast Aisans are related - at least lingustically. I can't post it up here due to coppyright reasons, unfortunately.But i can quote an entry ( i can't type the original script though and it was romanized in 'vietnamese style' )
Viet : om ap
Nung: up
Thai: ap om, op om
Lao: om
Khmer: ap con
Mon: om
Nicobar: om chum
Cham: om
yes, bradpitt is totally an idiot. The word Dai in ethnic Dai and Dai in "great" are just homonyms and have nothing to each other. It's like we call the Champa people "Chàm" and Chàm also means "indigo" in Vietnamese language. So does that mean Cham people named themselves after the color "indigo"? Just that comment of Bradpitt shows he's an idiot.
Not only an idiot but he also has an extreme jealousy toward Vietnamese just like a few other members here and try to discredit as many thing from the Vietnamese as much as possible. When Tav6 posts up attractive Vietnamese girls, he claims that those girls are mixed with Cham or Khmer and that's why they're attractive. He tries his best to prove that unmixed Vietnamese have small ugly and slanted eyes. He once made an effort to claim that the Dongson bronze drums belonged to the Cham/Khmer/Malay and that Cham/Khmer/Malay didn't want to bury such valuable objects on their land, so they carried them to Viet land to bury the drums
After failing with that stupid argument, now he claim that the drums in the Red River Delta actually belong to ethnic Dai, and not Vietnamese, which is ironic because there's no ethnic Dai in North Vietnam
There's no doubt that the Dong Son culture was built by the ancestors of Vietnamese because examination of human skulls in Dongson sites showed that those ancient people were biologically related to Vietnamese. Comparisons of Dongson human skulls and teeth to those of modern people showed that Vietnamese is the modern group that is closest to them, followed by Lao people, proving that Vietnamese are the direct descendants of those ancient Dongson people. Any attempt by Bradpitt to discredit this is fruitless.
Dongson culture was a very influential culture in the whole Southern China and SEA. One theory was that other ethnics might have made an attempt to adopt the bronze drums from the Lac Viet people in North Vietnam, that's why u see similar drums found throughout Southern China and SEA (but the highest concentration is still the in the Red River Delta); however the drums that other ethnics made were never the same as the original drums made by Lac Viet people in North Vietnam; their designs were not as artistic as the designs of the drums in North Vietnam, and the metal components of their drums weren't the same as the metal components of Dongson bronze drums. Dongson bronze drums had a fine mixture of copper, tin, and lead, creating some amazing alloy that gave the Dongson bronze drums superior quality. Other bronze drums usually only have copper and tin, u rarely see lead in those drums, and lead is the important component that give bronze a fine quality.
The Burmese admit that their bronze drums were adopted from the bronze drums of North Vietnam, with some modification in design.
Another theory was that the people that created these bronze drums were from the same ethnic/culture with regional differences, but they later separated and became different ethnics.
Trading could also be another reason for the presence of bronze drums in many different places but with low concentrations.
Just that comment of Bradpitt shows he's an idiot.Not only an idiot but he also has an extreme jealousy toward Vietnamese just like a few other members here and try to discredit as many thing from the Vietnamese as much as possible. When Tav6 posts up attractive Vietnamese girls, he claims that those girls are mixed with Cham or Khmer and that's why they're attractive. He tries his best to prove that unmixed Vietnamese have small ugly and slanted eyes. He once made an effort to claim that the Dongson bronze drums belonged to the Cham/Khmer/Malay and that Cham/Khmer/Malay didn't want to bury such valuable objects on their land, so they carried them to Viet land to bury the drums
After failing with that stupid argument, now he claim that the drums in the Red River Delta actually belong to ethnic Dai, and not Vietnamese, which is ironic because there's no ethnic Dai in North Vietnam There's no doubt that the Dong Son culture was built by the ancestors of Vietnamese because examination of human skulls in Dongson sites showed that those ancient people were biologically related to Vietnamese. Comparisons of Dongson human skulls and teeth to those of modern people showed that Vietnamese is the modern group that is closest to them, followed by Lao people, proving that Vietnamese are the direct descendants of those ancient Dongson people. Any attempt by Bradpitt to discredit this is fruitless.
Dongson culture was a very influential culture in the whole Southern China and SEA. One theory was that other ethnics might have made an attempt to adopt the bronze drums from the Lac Viet people in North Vietnam, that's why u see similar drums found throughout Southern China and SEA (but the highest concentration is still the in the Red River Delta); however the drums that other ethnics made were never the same as the original drums made by Lac Viet people in North Vietnam; their designs were not as artistic as the designs of the drums in North Vietnam, and the metal components of their drums weren't the same as the metal components of Dongson bronze drums. Dongson bronze drums had a fine mixture of copper, tin, and lead, creating some amazing alloy that gave the Dongson bronze drums superior quality. Other bronze drums usually only have copper and tin, u rarely see lead in those drums, and lead is the important component that give bronze a fine quality.
The Burmese admit that their bronze drums were adopted from the bronze drums of North Vietnam, with some modification in design.
Another theory was that the people that created these bronze drums were from the same ethnic/culture with regional differences, but they later separated and became different ethnics.
Trading could also be another reason for the presence of bronze drums in many different places but with low concentrations.
QUOTE(tientriettungdam @ Jan 23 2009, 10:02 PM) [snapback]4099354[/snapback]
I have been following the theory of VIetnam origin and it yielded many interesting facts and one of it is the language. Dr. Nguyen Hy VOng had compiled a cognatic dictionary of all South East Asian Languages (and some indian dialects) to prove that all of Southeast Aisans are related - at least lingustically. I can't post it up here due to coppyright reasons, unfortunately.But i can quote an entry ( i can't type the original script though and it was romanized in 'vietnamese style' )
Viet : om ap
Nung: up
Thai: ap om, op om
Lao: om
Khmer: ap con
Mon: om
Nicobar: om chum
Cham: om
Viet : om ap
Nung: up
Thai: ap om, op om
Lao: om
Khmer: ap con
Mon: om
Nicobar: om chum
Cham: om
I feel the same thing too because I myself found many basic words that are similar across language families. My hypothesis is that all Asian languages originate from the same source but later separated into different branches. Vietnamese language preserves many things from that old original language and that's why it shares similarities with all language families (Austroasiatic, Tai-Kadai, Hmong-Mien, Austronesian, Sino-Tibetan) and why linguists, Viet and non-Viet, still debate after centuries which language branch Vietnamese belong to. Scientists also claimed that all Asians originated from North Vietnam and Southern China 10,000 years ago based on genetic research, rendering more support to the hypothesis that all Asian languages came from the same source and Vietnamese are the preserver of this source and that's why Asian language families can be connected through Vietnamese.
Here are some examples I found myself:
"Forehead" --- Vietnamese "trán" (<-- blán) ~ Hmong/Yao *blVŋ.A forehead > Yao pjǝŋ.3 forehead
"Eye" --- Vietnamese "mắt" ~ Austronesian "mata" ~ Tai "ta" (split from mata?) ~ Sino-Tibetan: Burmese "mjak", Kachin: "mjiʔ2", Lushai: "mit"
"Nose" --- Vietnamese "mũi" ~ Hmong-Yao *mbjui.B ~ Khmer "crǝmuh" ~ Thai "ʔcmu:k" --- Also consider Chinese 鼻*bji? (The b- and m- initials can interchange. Or we can look at the Miao/Yao from *mbjui.B, it's like a connection between Vietnamese mũi and Chinese 鼻*bji?)
"Chin" --- Vietnamese "cằm" --- Proto-Tai-Zhuang *ɣa:ŋ.A 'chin, lower jaw' (Note that [ɣ] sounds similar to English G)
"Neck" --- Vietnamese "cổ" --- Proto-Tai-Zhaung *ɣo.A "neck, throat" (Ong Be: ko.2, Lakkia: ɦou.2, Siamese: gɔ.A, Lungchow: ko.2, Po-ai: ho.2) --- Khmer: kɔ:
"Shoulder" --- Vietnamese "vai" --- Proto-Zhuang-Tai *ʔba.B (Ong Be: via.3, Lakkia: wie.5, Biao: tshu.5, Siamese: ʔba.B, Lungchow: ʔba.5, Po-ai: ma.5)
Arm/Hand" --- Vietnamese "tay" --- Khmer "te" --- Hmong/Yao te
"Armpit" --- Vietnamese "nách" --- Chinese 腋 *liak --- Khmer: kliǝk < OK kǝnljek --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *jăk “armpit” --- Burmese: gjak-kaʔ-li armpit.
"Chest" --- Vietnamese "ngực" --- Chinese 臆*ʔ®ǝk --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *ʔrǝ̆ŋ // *ʔrǝ̆k "breast, chest" (Tibetan: braŋ chest, breast; Burmese: raŋ breast.) --- Khmer *dru:ŋ (?) --- Proto-AustroAsiatic: * rVŋ
"Belly" --- Vietnamese "bụng" --- Tai: buŋ.A --- Khmer bung --- Chinese: puk
"Buttocks, Anus"
+++ Vietnamese "trôn" (<-- klon because in Mường it's "khon", meaning "bottom") --- Proto-Thai-Kadai: *kuN.C / *kum.B "buttocks"
+++ Vietnamese mông "buttocks" --- Burmese: /phaŋ/ buttocks, bottom, behind.
+++ Vietnamese "đít" --- Khmer: kṭit < OK kǝtet --- Proto-Palaungic: Ria tit.1
"Legs/Feet"
Vietnamese "chân" --- Yao chiŋ.3 --- Thai ʒǝ:ŋ.A --- Khmer: ʒaǝŋ --- Proto-SinoTibetan *chok / *choŋ --- Naga *ʒVŋ 'foot' (Sidenote: all the forms end with "-ng" except for the Vietnamese form with ends in "-n", but then there are many cases where -ng changes to -n from another language to Vietnamese)
Vietnamese "cẳng" --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *kăŋ / *kăk (r-) --- Sino-Tibetan languages: Tibetan rkaŋ "foot, leg", Kachin(H) "khraŋ" a limb, Mikir keŋ leg, foot, Lepcha: kăŋ, kóŋ foot
"Thigh" ---
+++ Vietnamese "vế" --- Chinese 髀*peʔ, *bēʔ --- Thai-Kadai: Ong Be va.2 ---Austro-Asiatic: Proto-Wa: *pa®
+++ Vietnamese "đùi" --- Chinese 腿 tuǐ < MC tuaj < OC *twəj "leg, thigh, lap" --- Austro-Asitaic: Proto-Monic: *dɨl --- Thai-Kadai: Biao tö:n.4
"Brain" --- Vietnamese "óc" --- Proto-Zhuang-Tai: *ʔu:k / *ʔuk "brain" --- Austro-asiatic: Proto-Katuic *bʔok / *bʔu:k, Proto-Bahnaric: *ŋɔ:k --- Proto-Sino- Tibetan*nūH / *nūk, Burmese: uh-hnauk the brain, LB *(s)-nukx.
There are more...I'm just listing the body parts.
QUOTE(FinestAsian @ Jan 23 2009, 01:15 PM) [snapback]4098395[/snapback]
That's great information, Xigon.
Reading this post clearly convinced me that this person is a stupid Cambodian troll. Sometimes I really tried to give them some credits because there are some smart and peaceful Cambodian posts here once in a while, but most of the time, they are just trolls and stupid. It really makes it hard to for us to educate them since they don't want to learn either. They don't come here with an intention to learn but to troll.
Reading this post clearly convinced me that this person is a stupid Cambodian troll. Sometimes I really tried to give them some credits because there are some smart and peaceful Cambodian posts here once in a while, but most of the time, they are just trolls and stupid. It really makes it hard to for us to educate them since they don't want to learn either. They don't come here with an intention to learn but to troll.
Why you gotta be so racist?
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Jan 24 2009, 02:20 PM) [snapback]4099482[/snapback]
I feel the same thing too because I myself found many basic words that are similar across language families. My hypothesis is that all Asian languages originate from the same source but later separated into different branches. Vietnamese language preserves many things from that old original language and that's why it shares similarities with all language families (Austroasiatic, Tai-Kadai, Hmong-Mien, Austronesian, Sino-Tibetan) and why linguists, Viet and non-Viet, still debate after centuries which language branch Vietnamese belong to. Scientists also claimed that all Asians originated from North Vietnam and Southern China 10,000 years ago based on genetic research, rendering more support to the hypothesis that all Asian languages came from the same source and Vietnamese are the preserver of this source and that's why Asian language families can be connected through Vietnamese.
Here are some examples I found myself:
"Forehead" --- Vietnamese "trán" (<-- blán) ~ Hmong/Yao *blVŋ.A forehead > Yao pjǝŋ.3 forehead
"Eye" --- Vietnamese "mắt" ~ Austronesian "mata" ~ Tai "ta" (split from mata?) ~ Sino-Tibetan: Burmese "mjak", Kachin: "mjiʔ2", Lushai: "mit"
"Nose" --- Vietnamese "mũi" ~ Hmong-Yao *mbjui.B ~ Khmer "crǝmuh" ~ Thai "ʔcmu:k" --- Also consider Chinese 鼻*bji? (The b- and m- initials can interchange. Or we can look at the Miao/Yao from *mbjui.B, it's like a connection between Vietnamese mũi and Chinese 鼻*bji?)
"Chin" --- Vietnamese "cằm" --- Proto-Tai-Zhuang *ɣa:ŋ.A 'chin, lower jaw' (Note that [ɣ] sounds similar to English G)
"Neck" --- Vietnamese "cổ" --- Proto-Tai-Zhaung *ɣo.A "neck, throat" (Ong Be: ko.2, Lakkia: ɦou.2, Siamese: gɔ.A, Lungchow: ko.2, Po-ai: ho.2) --- Khmer: kɔ:
"Shoulder" --- Vietnamese "vai" --- Proto-Zhuang-Tai *ʔba.B (Ong Be: via.3, Lakkia: wie.5, Biao: tshu.5, Siamese: ʔba.B, Lungchow: ʔba.5, Po-ai: ma.5)
Arm/Hand" --- Vietnamese "tay" --- Khmer "te" --- Hmong/Yao te
"Armpit" --- Vietnamese "nách" --- Chinese 腋 *liak --- Khmer: kliǝk < OK kǝnljek --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *jăk “armpit” --- Burmese: gjak-kaʔ-li armpit.
"Chest" --- Vietnamese "ngực" --- Chinese 臆*ʔ®ǝk --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *ʔrǝ̆ŋ // *ʔrǝ̆k "breast, chest" (Tibetan: braŋ chest, breast; Burmese: raŋ breast.) --- Khmer *dru:ŋ (?) --- Proto-AustroAsiatic: * rVŋ
"Belly" --- Vietnamese "bụng" --- Tai: buŋ.A --- Khmer bung --- Chinese: puk
"Buttocks, Anus"
+++ Vietnamese "trôn" (<-- klon because in Mường it's "khon", meaning "bottom") --- Proto-Thai-Kadai: *kuN.C / *kum.B "buttocks"
+++ Vietnamese mông "buttocks" --- Burmese: /phaŋ/ buttocks, bottom, behind.
+++ Vietnamese "đít" --- Khmer: kṭit < OK kǝtet --- Proto-Palaungic: Ria tit.1
"Legs/Feet"
Vietnamese "chân" --- Yao chiŋ.3 --- Thai ʒǝ:ŋ.A --- Khmer: ʒaǝŋ --- Proto-SinoTibetan *chok / *choŋ --- Naga *ʒVŋ 'foot' (Sidenote: all the forms end with "-ng" except for the Vietnamese form with ends in "-n", but then there are many cases where -ng changes to -n from another language to Vietnamese)
Vietnamese "cẳng" --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *kăŋ / *kăk (r-) --- Sino-Tibetan languages: Tibetan rkaŋ "foot, leg", Kachin(H) "khraŋ" a limb, Mikir keŋ leg, foot, Lepcha: kăŋ, kóŋ foot
"Thigh" ---
+++ Vietnamese "vế" --- Chinese 髀*peʔ, *bēʔ --- Thai-Kadai: Ong Be va.2 ---Austro-Asiatic: Proto-Wa: *pa®
+++ Vietnamese "đùi" --- Chinese 腿 tuǐ < MC tuaj < OC *twəj "leg, thigh, lap" --- Austro-Asitaic: Proto-Monic: *dɨl --- Thai-Kadai: Biao tö:n.4
"Brain" --- Vietnamese "óc" --- Proto-Zhuang-Tai: *ʔu:k / *ʔuk "brain" --- Austro-asiatic: Proto-Katuic *bʔok / *bʔu:k, Proto-Bahnaric: *ŋɔ:k --- Proto-Sino- Tibetan*nūH / *nūk, Burmese: uh-hnauk the brain, LB *(s)-nukx.
There are more...I'm just listing the body parts.
Here are some examples I found myself:
"Forehead" --- Vietnamese "trán" (<-- blán) ~ Hmong/Yao *blVŋ.A forehead > Yao pjǝŋ.3 forehead
"Eye" --- Vietnamese "mắt" ~ Austronesian "mata" ~ Tai "ta" (split from mata?) ~ Sino-Tibetan: Burmese "mjak", Kachin: "mjiʔ2", Lushai: "mit"
"Nose" --- Vietnamese "mũi" ~ Hmong-Yao *mbjui.B ~ Khmer "crǝmuh" ~ Thai "ʔcmu:k" --- Also consider Chinese 鼻*bji? (The b- and m- initials can interchange. Or we can look at the Miao/Yao from *mbjui.B, it's like a connection between Vietnamese mũi and Chinese 鼻*bji?)
"Chin" --- Vietnamese "cằm" --- Proto-Tai-Zhuang *ɣa:ŋ.A 'chin, lower jaw' (Note that [ɣ] sounds similar to English G)
"Neck" --- Vietnamese "cổ" --- Proto-Tai-Zhaung *ɣo.A "neck, throat" (Ong Be: ko.2, Lakkia: ɦou.2, Siamese: gɔ.A, Lungchow: ko.2, Po-ai: ho.2) --- Khmer: kɔ:
"Shoulder" --- Vietnamese "vai" --- Proto-Zhuang-Tai *ʔba.B (Ong Be: via.3, Lakkia: wie.5, Biao: tshu.5, Siamese: ʔba.B, Lungchow: ʔba.5, Po-ai: ma.5)
Arm/Hand" --- Vietnamese "tay" --- Khmer "te" --- Hmong/Yao te
"Armpit" --- Vietnamese "nách" --- Chinese 腋 *liak --- Khmer: kliǝk < OK kǝnljek --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *jăk “armpit” --- Burmese: gjak-kaʔ-li armpit.
"Chest" --- Vietnamese "ngực" --- Chinese 臆*ʔ®ǝk --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *ʔrǝ̆ŋ // *ʔrǝ̆k "breast, chest" (Tibetan: braŋ chest, breast; Burmese: raŋ breast.) --- Khmer *dru:ŋ (?) --- Proto-AustroAsiatic: * rVŋ
"Belly" --- Vietnamese "bụng" --- Tai: buŋ.A --- Khmer bung --- Chinese: puk
"Buttocks, Anus"
+++ Vietnamese "trôn" (<-- klon because in Mường it's "khon", meaning "bottom") --- Proto-Thai-Kadai: *kuN.C / *kum.B "buttocks"
+++ Vietnamese mông "buttocks" --- Burmese: /phaŋ/ buttocks, bottom, behind.
+++ Vietnamese "đít" --- Khmer: kṭit < OK kǝtet --- Proto-Palaungic: Ria tit.1
"Legs/Feet"
Vietnamese "chân" --- Yao chiŋ.3 --- Thai ʒǝ:ŋ.A --- Khmer: ʒaǝŋ --- Proto-SinoTibetan *chok / *choŋ --- Naga *ʒVŋ 'foot' (Sidenote: all the forms end with "-ng" except for the Vietnamese form with ends in "-n", but then there are many cases where -ng changes to -n from another language to Vietnamese)
Vietnamese "cẳng" --- Proto-Sino-Tibetan *kăŋ / *kăk (r-) --- Sino-Tibetan languages: Tibetan rkaŋ "foot, leg", Kachin(H) "khraŋ" a limb, Mikir keŋ leg, foot, Lepcha: kăŋ, kóŋ foot
"Thigh" ---
+++ Vietnamese "vế" --- Chinese 髀*peʔ, *bēʔ --- Thai-Kadai: Ong Be va.2 ---Austro-Asiatic: Proto-Wa: *pa®
+++ Vietnamese "đùi" --- Chinese 腿 tuǐ < MC tuaj < OC *twəj "leg, thigh, lap" --- Austro-Asitaic: Proto-Monic: *dɨl --- Thai-Kadai: Biao tö:n.4
"Brain" --- Vietnamese "óc" --- Proto-Zhuang-Tai: *ʔu:k / *ʔuk "brain" --- Austro-asiatic: Proto-Katuic *bʔok / *bʔu:k, Proto-Bahnaric: *ŋɔ:k --- Proto-Sino- Tibetan*nūH / *nūk, Burmese: uh-hnauk the brain, LB *(s)-nukx.
There are more...I'm just listing the body parts.
Hey Xigoncongchua, you know a lot! Can i ask who you are??lol. Where did you get this information from?
QUOTE(BradPittJolie @ Jan 24 2009, 12:07 AM) [snapback]4098249[/snapback]
Although they are shaped different, the pattern on the surface look the same proving that they all came from the same people. The bigger more elaborate designs drums could've belong to bigger Dai tribes use for more important rituals. Furthermore, the Dai tribes were known to be scattered in SEA and Southern China explaining why those drums were found in those places whereas the Vietnamese were believe to spawn from out of nowhere to inhabit northern SEA. It is highly possible that the earliest Vietnamese were Dai settlers mixed with Mon/Khmer.
This was happening in the west in Siam so you can't rule out anything. I just don't buy it how Vietnamese grew in that plot of land and made 80 million babies.
This was happening in the west in Siam so you can't rule out anything. I just don't buy it how Vietnamese grew in that plot of land and made 80 million babies.
I just don't understand what you're trying to say "I just don't buy it how Vietnamese grew in that plot of land and made 80 million babies"???? What does that mean. Why is it not worth trusting. THe population? It only grew in the last 6 decades, before that Vietnam was very scarcely populated. when the french came to vietnam they said that in the whole of vietnam there wasn't a single city - not even Thang Long or hue considered a city which means there are not that many people in these 'towns'. But that also doesn't matter. The japanese grew in a piece of land slightly bigger than vietnam and yet their population is 120mil - are you sayiing chinese and korean migrated there in great numbers???
QUOTE(tientriettungdam @ Jan 24 2009, 06:57 PM) [snapback]4100572[/snapback]
Hey Xigoncongchua, you know a lot! Can i ask who you are??lol. Where did you get this information from?
I did my own research. I collected those from several websites and made comparisons.
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