One of the earliest Daic states in northern Vietnam was named Van Lang. Van Lang was located to the northwest of Hanoi around where the Red, Black, and Clear rivers merge in Vinh Phu province. The region was called Mi Linh. It is common in Vietnam to claim that the kingdom of Van Lang was founded in 696 BC and was ruled by what are commonly referred to as the Hung (Khun) Kings. This early date is highly doubtful, but it is clear that the Hung Kings were Daic speakers (and not Vietnamese). In this regard Chamberlain points out that an important Chinese source, Jao Tsung-i, uses a character to designate the Hung Kings that is the same as the clan name of the Daic of Chu, the Mi(Bear) clan.

...

We are on slightly firmer ground than with Van Lang in regard to the early history of northern Vietnam with another early Daic state call Nam Cuong (some sources call it Shu). Its territiory extended from northern Vietnam into the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region in China. The capital of Nam Cuong was Nam Binh, which is located in what is now Cao Binh commune, Hoa An district, Cao Bang province. When one of the rulers of Nam Cuong named Thuc che died, armies from rival clans attacked Nam Binh to seize the throne. Thuc Che's son and heir, Thuc Phan, was very young at the time. He is said to have challenged the clan leaders to a martial arts competition with the crown going to the winner. Thuc Phan won and then the clan leaders recognized him as the new ruler. Under Thuc Phan's rule Nam Cuong prospered and became a wealthy and strong state. At the same time, the neighboring state of Van Lang was in decline. In 258 BC Thuc Phan conquered Van Lang and established a new kingdom call Au Lac. Thuc Phan changed his nam to An Zuang Vuong and established a new capital, Phuc An (today it is known as Co Loa), in what is now Dong Anh district, near Hanoi.

...

One interesting question about the relationship of the Southwestern Tai and the Central Tai concerns the fate of the Lo clan. After the Chinese defeat of the Lo nobles in 43 AD, the Lo clan vanishes from lowland history. The Lo clan reemerges, however, as the ruling class of the White tai and Black Tai who migrate into northwestern Yunnan a few centuries later. In Black Tai and Lao mythology the Lo lineage is not descended from the "pung-gournd" as are the other mortals and, therefore, has a seperate origin. The Lo clan of the northwestern Vietnam is undoubtedly linked to the earlier Lo clan and was likely the ruling class of the initial Tai group that migrated to Yunnan from the lowlands. They certainly fared better than the lowland Lo-- who were executed by the Chinese-- and formed the ruling class of Tai societies in Vietnam until 1954.

Chinese subjugation of lowland northern Vietnam had an important impact on the Daic peoples. As Chinese control of northern Vietnam increased over the centuries and greater numbers of Chinese and Mon-Khmer speaking Vietnamese moved into the lowlands, some Daic peoples became assimilated onto the emerging Sino-Viet society. Those who were not assimilated found themselves in effect divided into two related, but distinct groups. To the east were the Tay, Nung, and various other small Daic speaking groups who came under strong Chinese cultural influences. To the west, in the mountains of northwestern Vietnam were more isolated groups of Tai speaking peoples who retained more of their distinctive Tai culture. The divide was not absolute, however, and between the two extremes, in the highland areas adjacent to the Red and Lo rivers were Tai speaking peoples whose cultures were intermediary between the two extremes. Such difference, as well as the underlying similarities, are reflected in the textiles of the various Tai speaking groups.

Daic peoples, although not developing a sea-oriented life comparable to that of the Austronesians, shared some sea related characteristics with the Austronesian peoples. This is reflected in the widespread use of common boat symbolism in both cultures. The Daic peoples also engaged extensively in maritime trade with insular Southeast Asia.

The early history of the Daic peoples is poorly understood and subject to considerable debate. The Daic super-family contains three families: Kam-Sui, Kadai, and Tai. Only the latter two families are found in Vietnam in significant numbers.The Daic occupied the area of Yangtze River Delta down to the lowlands of North Vietnam in current Hanoi. The first to arrive in what is today Vietnam appear to have been Kadai speaking peoples. Later they were followed by Tai speaking peoples who either absorbed Kadai speaking populations or regulated them to marginal areas.

Until the Tang dynasty (618-907 AD) most of southeastern China was occupied by what the Han referred to as Yue. These Yue were Daic speaking peoples. In any event, more than a thousand years before the Tang dynasty, by the time of the Zhou overthrow of the Shang to the north around 1040 BC, Daic speaking peoples were settled across most of southeastern China. The region occupied by the Daic peoples came to include Hunan, Hubei, Jiangxi, Fujian, Zhejiang, and Guangdong provinces, the guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region, as well as the lowlands of northern Vietnam.

Daic peoples emerged historically with the founding of the kingdom of Chu. While scholars in China often view Chu as a multi-ethnic kingdom populated by barbarians such as the Daic peoples and ruled by Chinese, Chamberlain refers to Chu as a proto-Tai-Kam-Sui kingdom. Thus, it could be considered a Daic kingdom. The Chinese at this time referred to the people south as Chu-Yue or manyi. Manyi can be translated as "fringe of Yi peoples" or "southern barbarians". Yue is the term commonly identified with the Daic peoples living in the provinces listed in the above paragraph, whereas the Chu are commonly linked to the Zhou kingdom. Certainly the ruling lineage of Chu claimed affinity with the Zhou kingdom, but whether they were northerners themselves or southerners with certain political and cultural links to the Zhou who were dominant for a time appears uncertain. In any event, the population of their kingdom clearly was comprised mainly of what the Chinese referred to as barbarians or Daic peoples and there were many Daic cultural elements evident in the Chu kingdom.

The Chu kingdom made its initial appearance as early as 1200 BC. Its political center was in the vincity of the Huai River and Nanchang Basin in the Jiangxi province. Its founders were from the Mi(Bear) clan. Blakeley characterizes it as a multicultural empire that "absorbed over sixty states and a number of tribal peoples". Initially it had close relations with the Zhou kingdom, to which it paid tribute. Gradually it asserted its independence and when the Zhou empire went into decline after 600 BC the Chu kingdom expanded, in the sixth century BC, "coming within a political hair of dominating all of China". Its military peak lasted until the third century BC, when it went into rapid decline in the face of rising Qin state, which conquered Chu in 223 BC.

A breakaway Yue kingdom energed in Zhejiang province around the ninth century BC. This new kingdom seems to be associated with the appearance of a distinct Tai people as they seperated from the Kam-Sui. The centuries that follow witnessed the emrgence of intensive irrigated rice cultivation, the growth of larger human settlements, and the emergence of a bronze age culture among the Daic peoples of southern China.

The bronze age culture among the Tai speaking peoples living in northern Vietnam is identified especially with what is commonly referred to as Dongson Culture. Madrolle reports that members of the Lo clan ( the ruling clan among the Tai) account for the presence in the Delta. This clan used as its totemic emblem either a sea eagle or cormorant which becomes a dominant motif of Dongson art and, as well shall see, has survived as a motif on certain textiles of the Tai in Hoa Binh and Thanh Hoa provinces into the present.

One of the earliest Daic states in northern Vietnam was named Van Lang. Van Lang was located to the northwest of Hanoi around where the Red, Black, and Clear rivers merge in Vinh Phu province. The region was called Mi Linh. It is common in Vietnam to claim that the kingdom of Van Lang was founded in 696 BC and was ruled by what are commonly referred to as the Hung (Khun) Kings. This early date is highly doubtful, but it is clear that the Hung Kings were Daic speakers (and not Vietnamese). In this regard Chamberlain points out that an important Chinese source, Jao Tsung-i, uses a character to designate the Hung Kings that is the same as the clan name of the Daic of Chu, the Mi(Bear) clan.

Chinese attacked the kingdom of Yue in 333 BC and destroyed its capital. The rulers of the Yue kingdom, who were members of the Lo clan, fled to the south. The movement to the south of members of the Lo clan gave rise to a number of small principalities, commonly referred to as the "Hundred Yue". These were located in the present provinces of Fujian, Guangdong, Guizhou, and Guangxi in China as well as in the lowland of northern Vietnam. The kingdom of Van Lang may date from this period and not earlier. Aurousseau refers to the first these Yue kingdoms as Wen-tcheou and its people as the Tong(Dong) Ngeou-yue or Eastern Yue. Other kingdoms were associated with what he refers to as the Min-yue, Nan-yue, and Lo-yue in the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region and the Red River delta region of northern Vietnam. The latter area is also sometimes referred to as the land of the Si Ngeou or Western Ngeou. Ngeou, like Yue, is one of the names commonly associated with the Daic peoples in the early histories.

We are on slightly firmer ground than with Van Lang in regard to the early history of northern Vietnam with another early Daic state call Nam Cuong (some sources call it Shu). Its territiory extended from northern Vietnam into the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region in China. The capital of Nam Cuong was Nam Binh, which is located in what is now Cao Binh commune, Hoa An district, Cao Bang province. When one of the rulers of Nam Cuong named Thuc che died, armies from rival clans attacked Nam Binh to seize the throne. Thuc Che's son and heir, Thuc Phan, was very young at the time. He is said to have challenged the clan leaders to a martial arts competition with the crown going to the winner. Thuc Phan won and then the clan leaders recognized him as the new ruler. Under Thuc Phan's rule Nam Cuong prospered and became a wealthy and strong state. At the same time, the neighboring state of Van Lang was in decline. In 258 BC Thuc Phan conquered Van Lang and established a new kingdom call Au Lac. Thuc Phan changed his nam to An Zuang Vuong and established a new capital, Phuc An (today it is known as Co Loa), in what is now Dong Anh district, near Hanoi.

Although the rulers of the new kingdom of Au Lac were Tai, as noted by Be, Nguyen, and Chu, its territory around present-day Hanoi probably was inhabited by a number of ethnic groups. The most important of these were the various Kadai speaking groups. The Kadai appear to have occupied the far south of China and northern vietnam prior to the arrival of the Tai. Chamberlain argues that some indication of its extent can be found by looking for the Kadai speaking remnant populations today. These include the Li (who are known as Hli) on Hainan Island in the east and the Laha in Son La province to the west, with pockets of Kadai speakers scattered thoughout the are in between. Many Kadai speaking groups were gradually assimilated by the Tai, until only a few remained in relatively isolated areas. There does not appear to have been a significant presence of Mon-Khmer speaking peoples in the lowlands of northern Vietnam during this early period. They appear on the scene only after the onset of Chinese rule.


Be, Nguyen, and Chu cite various forms of evidence of extensive early Tai occupation throughout the lowlands of northern Vietnam. Thus, many local names surrounding the temple of the Hung kings retain the name na. This is a popular word for field in the Tay and other Tai languages. In the spoken language of the Vietnamese people inhabitingthe midlands of Ha Bac province there are still many Tay elements. Thus, they use the term um for baby diapers, which is similar to the Tay word for diapers, om, and quite different from the Vietnamese term, ta. Such influence can also be seen in other aspects of their culture. For example, at New Year they do not make square sticky rice cakes (banh chung) like other Vietnamese, but make long and round sticky rice cakes (banh tay) in the Tay fashion. Likewise, many sites around the ancient capital of Phuc An originally had Tay names. Evidence can also be found in family names. For example, the Ma family name is common among Vietnamese living in Phu Tho province. Ma is also a name widely found among Tay and Nung Chao.

Chinese control over Daic kingdoms to the to the north came gradually. Between 208 and 207 BC a Chinese commissioner named Chao To ( he is also known as Trieu Da) seized control of the kingdom of Nan Yue. His capital of Fanyu was located near the present city of Canton. Chao To extended his political control over much of the territory occupied by the Daic peoples as far south as the Red River in northern Vietnam. Between 180 and 179 BC Au Lac was made a vassal state of the Chinese ruled Nan Yue kingdom. While Nan Yue was able to assert its political domination over the lowland Tai kingdoms as far south as northern Vietnam, actual political control was limited. Moreover, it is important to keep in mind that the population of the area remained largely Tai.

Under the Han emperor Wu Di (135-90 BC) Chinese influence began to spread southward and in 111 BC the Han gained control over most of Nan Yue. Nan Yue was made a protectorate of the Han Chinese in 3 AD. However, local Tai nobles of the Lo clan appear to have retained considerable autonomy ( their territory was called Giao Chi by the Chinese). They revolted against the Chinese suzerainty in 40 AD and were finally defeated by the Chinese forces in 43 AD. Some of the defeated Lo nobles fled south to the area around the Ma River in what is now coastal Hoa Binh and Nghe An provinces (then referred to as Cuu Chan). They were pursued here by Chinese forces and were captured and executed. The Chinese expanded the territory under their control beyond the present town of Viet Tri and defeated the Tai rulers along the Claire River in 44 AD. After the defeat of the local Tai rulers the Han Chinese established more thorough administrative over lowland northern Vietnam. They divided the conquered territories of nothern Vietnam into three territories: Giao Chi, Cuu Chan, and (further to the south) Nhat Nam. Cuu Chan bordered Cham territory.

It is unknow precisely when Tai speaking peoples began migrating into the highlands of neighboring Yunnan. Dore locates the important Tai kingdom of Muang Ai in southern Yunnan, close to the Red and Black rivers, and dates its founding to around 110 BC. This correlates with the Han conquest of Nan Yue and the migration of Tai peoples into Yunnan may be a matter of their fleeing this southward advance of the Chinese. Muang Ai, then, would have been located to the east of the kingdom Dian, which paid tribute to the Han rulers. Dores also cites Chinese sources indicating that the Tai of Muang Ai spread into northern Yunnan in 47 AD. Migration into Yunnan gave rise to the Southwestern Tai sub-family which emerged as distinct from the Central Tai sub-family of languages spoken by those Tai speaking peoples who remained further east. Eastern Yunnan , accordingly, can be seen as one of the homeland of the Thai, Lao, and Lue ethnic groups in Vietnam. Small numbers of Thai, Lao, and Lue migrated into territories within the present borders of Vietnam over the next few centuries, but significant migration appears to have begun only after the Tibetan-Burman kingdom of Nanzhao was established in 732 AD. As Nanzhao expanded eastward members of these groups sought to retain their autonomy by moving southward.

One interesting question about the relationship of the Southwestern Tai and the Central Tai concerns the fate of the Lo clan. After the Chinese defeat of the Lo nobles in 43 AD, the Lo clan vanishes from lowland history. The Lo clan reemerges, however, as the ruling class of the White tai and Black Tai who migrate into northwestern Yunnan a few centuries later. In Black Tai and Lao mythology the Lo lineage is not descended from the "pung-gournd" as are the other mortals and, therefore, has a seperate origin. The Lo clan of the northwestern Vietnam is undoubtedly linked to the earlier Lo clan and was likely the ruling class of the initial Tai group that migrated to Yunnan from the lowlands. They certainly fared better than the lowland Lo-- who were executed by the Chinese-- and formed the ruling class of Tai societies in Vietnam until 1954.

Chinese subjugation of lowland northern Vietnam had an important impact on the Daic peoples. As Chinese control of northern Vietnam increased over the centuries and greater numbers of Chinese and Mon-Khmer speaking Vietnamese moved into the lowlands, some Daic peoples became assimilated onto the emerging Sino-Viet society. Those who were not assimilated found themselves in effect divided into two related, but distinct groups. To the east were the Tay, Nung, and various other small Daic speaking groups who came under strong Chinese cultural influences. To the west, in the mountains of northwestern Vietnam were more isolated groups of Tai speaking peoples who retained more of their distinctive Tai culture. The divide was not absolute, however, and between the two extremes, in the highland areas adjacent to the Red and Lo rivers were Tai speaking peoples whose cultures were intermediary between the two extremes. Such difference, as well as the underlying similarities, are reflected in the textiles of the various Tai speaking groups.



ETHNOLINGUISTIC CATEGORIES

Speakers of all three Daic families (Kam-Sui, Kadai, and Tai) are found in Vietnam. However, there are only a very small number of Kam-Sui and Kadai speakers living in northern Vietnam at present (around 12,000). Among the Kam-Sui languages, there are only a few speakers of Kam and Sui. There are a slightly larger number of people speaking Kadai languages. These include members of the Laha, Lachi, Co Lao, and Pupeo ethnic groups. As was noted above, the Kadai in Vietnam today are remnants of what was once a much larger group that occupied a much more extensive territory in northern Vietnam.

Tai languages are divided into three sub-families: Northern, Central, and Southwestern. The majority of the Northern Tai speakers at present live in China. Only a small number of two northern Tai languages, Zay (also known as Nhang or Giay) and Bouyei, live in northern Vietnam along with people belonging to a related group known as Tu Zi. These Northern Tai speakers are relatively recent migrants, having left what is now the Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region for neighboring northern Vietnam only in the late eighteenth century. Two groups of Central Tai speakers, the Tay and Nung, live in the central and eastern parts of northern Vietnam. Both are relatively large groups and are descendants of the original early Tai speaking inhabitants of the northern Vietnam. The Tay and Nung initially were a singly people living in northern Vietnam and adjacent areas of southern China who gradually developed cultural and linguistic differences. As the Chinese assumed control of the lowlands of northern Vietnam and Chinese and Vietnamese migrants began moving into the area, some Tay were assimilated into what became the lowland Vietnamese population. Those who today are indentified as Tay and Nung are part of the remaining Tai speaking peoples living primarily in the highlands of the northern vietnam east of the Red River, with a small number of Tay cut off to the south of Thang Hoa and Nghe An.


The ultimate ancestral home of the Southwestern Tai sub-family was either lowland northern Vietnam or adjacent Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region in China. Over 2,000 years ago the ancestors of those who speak these languages today migrated into the highlands of Yunnan province, where many speakers of these languages still live. A little later, some speakers of the Southwestern Tai languages moved into the mountains of northwestern Vietnam, settling first above the Red River near the Chinese border and later moving south along the present Vietnam-Lao border. The Southwestern Tai sub-family is further divided into East-Central and Southern branches, with the East-Central languages divided again into the Northwestern, Lao-Phutai, and Chiang Saen sub-branches. speakers of languages belonging to these groups lived in distinct areas of southern Yunnan and subsequently migrated into adjacent regions of neighboring countries to the south and west.

The Yunnan homeland of the Northwestern sub-branch is in the Sip Song Pan Na region of southern Yunnan. Languages within this sub-branch include Ahom, Shan, Kham-Ti, Tai Nua, and Lue. These Tai today generally are to be found in a belt lying north of territories occupied by the other two East-Central Tai sub-branches that stretches from northern Vietnam, across northern Laos, Thailand, and Burma, and ends in Assam India.

The Tai of the Lao-Phutai and Chiang Saen sub-branches of East-Central Tai settled further to the east in a region near the Chinese-Vietnamese border. The homeland of the Chiang Saen sub-branch is referred to as Sip Song Chu Tai. Those belonging to the Lao-Phutai sub-branch moved into northwestern Vietnam and then on to Laos and Thailand. Only a small number of Lao and Phutai reside in Vietnam at present. One group of these Lao live in northern Lao Chau province. We refer to this group as Northern Lao. Another group lives in southern Lai Chau province and adjacent Son La province. This group we call Southern Lao. The presence of Phutai in Vietnam is not well documented.


Two seperate groups of Chiang Saen speaking Tai, known as white Tai and Black Tai respectively and coming from distinct parts of Sip Song Chu Tai, migrated into northwestern Vietnam where they are now placed in the Thai official ethnic category. In general, the White Tai migrated into northwestern Vietnam first, settling near the Red River near the Chinese border in Lao Cai province and then later moving further south to Yen Bai, Son La, Hoa Binh, Thanh Hoa, and Nghe An provinces in Vietnam and to Houa Phan province in Laos. Another group of White Tai settled in northern Lao Chau province later at a date. The Black Tai arrived in Vietnam later than the first group of White Tai and moved across the Red and Black rivers to Muang Thanh (also known as Muang Thaeng and later Dien Bien Phu) area in southern Lao Chau province as did the Lao. Some Black Tai remained in this area while others moved on into Son La province. A few Black Tai later migrated to Houa Phan province in Laos and to Thanh Hoa and Nghe An province in Vietnam.

A further note on terminology is in order. We use the term Tai to refer to speakers of Tai languages and emply this name when referring to specific groups of Chiang Saen speaking Tai: e.g., Black Tai and White Tai. The term Thai is used in reference to the official ethnic designation of Chiang Saen Tai speaking groups in Vietnam.

Here is from the study of Dermtoglyph Groups Kinh Vietnamese to Mon/Khmer

Demic Diffusion Caused Expansion of Kinh

The Kinh Vietnamese were grouped into the Mon/Khmer cluster tightly both in PC analysis and Dendrogram analysis, which indicates the Kinh Vietnamese mainly belongs to the Mon/Khmer family, although it has certainly absorbed a proportion of the Daic family. The data are extremely similar between the Kinh Vietnamese and the Mon/Khmer populations in the west part of the Indo_China peninsula. In Vietnam, it is Dai group in the north who has had the most interactions with the Kinh, not the Mon/Khmer group in the west. Thus, the similarity between Kinh and Mon/Khmer in the west indicates that the Kinh may have originated in the Mon/Khmer, not only linguistically, but also genetically. It was mostly because of the demic diffusion not assimilation of other populations which drove Kinh people out of the Mon/Khmer in the west and to become the biggest ethnic group in the long land of Vietnam.

According to the related historical records, the population history of the Kinh, which we extrapolated also, conforms to the pattern of demic diffusion. In North Vietnam, the early inhabitant is the Luo-Yue of Daic family. In the Han dynasty, there was a war between the Chinese central government and the Southern Yue government, which resulted in heavy political pressure on the Yue (Daic) population, which lasted into Wu dynasty of the three states period. A large number of Daic populations including the Luo-Yue moved westwards to Guizhou, west Guangxi, Laos, and as far as Northern Thailand. It was nearly empty along Tonkin Bay, including North Vietnam and east Guangxi. In the following, the Jing dynasty and the Southern-Northern states period, as the northern nomads invaded central China, the Chinese government ignored Tonkin Bay and left it for the growing Kinh population. Since then, the Kinh appeared in the records of North Vietnam. After a long time of development in the Sui and Tang dynasties, a country of Kinh people was founded during the China's Civil Strife in the late Tang dynasty.

Thx procrastinator for the article. It gave me alot of understanding about Daic and their history.
To Xiconcongchua, now i see why Vietmanese are genetic related with Tai cause some Tay got assimilated. Article Procrastinator gave really show that Daic living there before Vietnamese and Chinese came. What do you think of it? Am sure you dont like to see it this way since you sound very nationalistic to me alot, can be it like i think you dont like the idea Tai ppl were part of Vietmanese civilization, even building the first Vietmanese kingdom, even sharing building Dong Song culture with you guys.
After saying this dont mean i care or want to claim, sure we dont use any bronze drums like Tay, Nung and Zhuang in our rituals i dont think we need to claim its our, cause we´re apart of those groups a very long time ago. We are close related to them but it doesnt mean we build Dong Song culture like they did. Hope you dont get all jumpy okay, caus i dont need any Dong Sng culture to make me feel richer. I only interest in the past history.

Under the Han emperor Wu Di (135-90 BC) Chinese influence began to spread southward and in 111 BC the Han gained control over most of Nan Yue. Nan Yue was made a protectorate of the Han Chinese in 3 AD. However, local Tai nobles of the Lo clan appear to have retained considerable autonomy ( their territory was called Giao Chi by the Chinese). They revolted against the Chinese suzerainty in 40 AD and were finally defeated by the Chinese forces in 43 AD. Some of the defeated Lo nobles fled south to the area around the Ma River in what is now coastal Hoa Binh and Nghe An provinces (then referred to as Cuu Chan). They were pursued here by Chinese forces and were captured and executed. The Chinese expanded the territory under their control beyond the present town of Viet Tri and defeated the Tai rulers along the Claire River in 44 AD. After the defeat of the local Tai rulers the Han Chinese established more thorough administrative over lowland northern Vietnam. They divided the conquered territories of nothern Vietnam into three territories: Giao Chi, Cuu Chan, and (further to the south) Nhat Nam. Cuu Chan bordered Cham territory.

I question the sample size used for that studay. 135 individuals from a population of 80,000,000 is really tiny. A quick calculation would give you a confidence interval of ~ 8.5% (at 95% confidence level). That is no good.

I question the methods of collecting dermatoglyphics data. You shoud note that the abstract say "from kinh populations all over vietnam". No good researcher would use such word as "all over".

I question the usefullness of using "dermatoglyphics" to infer racial differences. This area is not widely studied for this sort of purpose. It has more to do with identifying criminals because criminals do actually have higher chance of possessing some weird dermatoglyphics. Dermatoglyphics itself is cheaper and much less reliable than DNA studies.

Also, always remember that "statistically significant" do not mean that it is the truth. There are many statistical studies pointing this out already. Apparently, many "statistically significant" results turn out to be wrong.

I don't think I am. This epidemic is spreading! We got to stop them. Today they claim our Văn Lang kingdom, tomorrow they will claim Đại Việt. Their reason would be Yue people were Tai speaking people, hence the kingdom Đại Việt/Ta Yue must have belonged to or established by Tai people too

ok this is out of place. I'm being serious. It's not just the Lao trolls, some regular Lao members are also being drawn to this idea. One day all Lao people will believe in this idea. Well it's such a great idea to them, it makes the Lao race seem more powerful, intelligent, and glorious, it makes Lao people feel superior, why wouldn't they want to believe in it?

But yeah it does kind of pissed you off coz they came out of nowhere and say we have been worshiping the wrong ancestors.

But yeah it does kind of pissed you off coz they came out of nowhere and say we have been worshiping the wrong ancestors.

hehe ok enough of that

let's get serious.

That article posted by that Lao guy did not provide any solid evidence to support the claims it made. It was simply spitting out claims without evidence.

If some Lao/Tai members are so smart and so sure of their claims, why don't they deal with questions and comments I made in that long post of mine.

$hit can people stop posting stuff without sources Also if someone thinks he can use the cover of a book as a source, he's wrong

looks like I have to repost my post from the other topic
Where is the source of that article? It's very Tai-centered to me. Let me make some point and question

1)Where's the evidence that Tai arrived in the Red River Delta before the Viet people?

2)Just because the Tai were there doesn't mean that Viet people weren't there.

3)The claim that Yue people were Daic speakers is not solid because records from Chinese history and language analysis show that Yue people could be AA speaking people as well. Specifically, evidence have shown that the people of the Nan Yue kingdom which included parts of Guangdong, Guangxi and North Vietnam spoke the same or similar language as modern Vietnamese.

4)Yue people spread from the Red River of North Vietnam to the Yangtze River. Yes, but they were called the Bai Yue, or 100 Yues, meaning there were many Yue tribes. These tribes might be related or might not. Several language analysis showed that the speakers of the Yue tribes around Yangtze River could have been related to modern Vietnamese because the character for the Yangtze River in Chinese 江 "Krong" came from a Viet word which means "river". This character 江 appeared quite late in Chinese. It only appeared in Chinese when the Han people moved down to the Yangtze River and at first it was used as a "proper name" for the Yangtze River. Later this character became a common name for all the rivers in South China. It was suggested that the Chinese borrowed this word from the Yue tribes around the Yangtze who spoke a similar language to that of modern Vietnamese.

5)When the Han referred to the Yue people, they don't necessarily refere to Tai people. This is a big misunderstanding. Because some linguist evidence showed that some Yue tribes were Tai speakers, people assume that ALL Yue tribes were Tai speakers which made them assume that anything attributed to the Yue belonged to Tai.

6)The fact that Tày people assimilated to the Viet population meant that Vietnamese must have outnumbered or else it must be the other way around, Viet people assimilated to Tày. A small population could change the gene pool of a larger population but it should not be so significant that it changed all the genes of that population.

Whatever the case is. There's no evidence that Tai people arrived there before Viet people, there's no evidence that Tai were there when Viet were not.

Edit: Adding more

7) What? Văn Lang kingdom was a Viet kingdom recorded in Viet history. This article obviously got most of their information from Vietnamese history and claim it to be Tai. I read the later parts of the article and gosh, it was straight out from Vietnamese history. The Chinese did not record much about the Văn Lang kingdom. Vietnamese are the only ones who praised this Văn Lang kingdom as their earliest kingdom ruled and inhabited by Lạc Việt people. The Chinese did not record anything about Âu Lạc either. They only recorded a kingdom "West Âu Lạc." Where do you think this guy got their information about the Văn Lang and Âu Lạc from? The writer copied a whole part from a Vietnamese history book and then labeled everything as Tai! I know this because I studied Vietnamese history. Take a look, except for the Chinese provinces, most of the proper names in that articles are written in Vietnamese, well-known to Vietnamese.
You can go ask any Vietnamese about Văn Lang and Âu Lạc. They'll tell you about it. They know it by heart. Văn Lang/Âu Lạc is equivalent to Viet people just like Ai Lao and Nanchao are equivalent to Lao/Tai.

Do Tai people know anything about Văn Lang and Âu Lạc? Do they know how the two kingdoms were formed? Do they know any legend about it? Do they know any legend about its kings and its rulers? No. Vietnamese have a whole closet of legends about the kingdom Văn Lang, how it was formed, what happened to its rulers, what happened to the people there, wars that took place in the kingdom, significant events that contributed to Vietnamese culture. Like the legend about the "betel tree" (taking place during the reign of the 6th Hùng king) which explains the custom of "chewing betel" of Viet people...We also have a record of the names of all the kings that ever ruled Văn Lang. We also have a holiday of anniversary of the Văn Lang kings. We have temples in honor of Văn Lang kings. The writer of that article copied everything from Vietnamese history and legends and claim it to be theirs.

There was a period when many scholars claimed that the Văn Lang kingdom did not really exist as Vietnamese legends and history say. But Vietnamese people continued to believe in it because their most "sacred" legends say it existed, because a large percentage of Viet folk tales, legends, myths mention the Văn Lang kingdom, make connection to the Văn Lang kingdom, link themselves back to the Văn Lang kingdom. Thanks Heaven there is now evidence that Văn Lang kingdom did exist as Vietnamese legends and history always say.
WTF! Again this is straight out from Vietnamese history with some modification.

local Tai revolted against Chinese in 40 A.D.? Isn't this a copy of the Trung sisters' revolt. So similar. The Trung sisters' revolt took place at about the same time in early 40s AD. It was a large revolt which freed all 9 Nan Yue districts from the Han for a short period of time (Nan Yue was divided in to 9 districts, 3 of them were in North Vietnam, Giao Chỉ, Cửu Chân, Nhật Nam.)

The article is so crappy mostly (hey you don't even know the source of it). If Viet people didn't migrate in until very much later (a long time after the Han took over North Vietnam), how did they preserve so many legends that happened in that areas way before the Han took over. Their legends surprisingly match many details recorded in Chinese history. And Tai people on the hand doesn't have any legend about this areas, about Văn Lang and Âu Lạc.

You can ask everyone in the annual SE Asia Linguistic Conference. They all know that, although not many of them willing to mention it due to a sense of politness. Vietnam has done many fieldwork researches, which most of them are very good jobs. But it is rather rare to hear Vietnamese linguists to work on historical linguistics which involves a lot of theoritical training.

I hope Viet members dont take this the wrong way because i'm interested in learning about this new info. myself. Can you guys explain to me why Nungtinbao would be providing us with false info? If the Viet experts and Chinese experst can come up some sorta common conclusion, it would help shed some light on this matter so we dont claim the wrong ancestors.

Maybe its Karma? Like Kampuchea Krom's inexistence/history of the mekong delta being erased by Viet government?

This is very nonsense, when you write a research paper, never say: "ask everyone", "we all know....", "they all know..." without any sources. Well take this as your first lesson in learning history.
This is copied alot from our Vietnamese text book and then modify it without any source. It's like I pick up a Chinese history book then after reading so many times, I would use it as mine aand start citing sources from it to form a new theory which is called my Great Great history book. Well, after reading this I know for sure who "doesn't have REAL scientific historical linguistic research". You guys need to come up with scientific proof rather than just some folk tales or our Vietnamese text book.
Well, Lots of people do lots of stupid things and I really don't know why, because "ask everyone", "they all know" it's stupid..... How many conflicting stories, how many new thoeries have come up recently about acient history, it's interesting to know and to learn, but dirty twisted history with a wrong intention will be laughed at. Please save yourself some embrassement and stop trying to associating with our ancestors.
Oh, one more thing, try to look for some book called "The Two Sisters", and I'm sure if you go to Guangdong, you still see some temples worshipping our national heroines. Do you think our ancestors know how much trouble their descendants would face when they just happened to be the descendants of the Yue? I'm sure our ancestors didn't choose to be someone who are not them. Why would they do that back thousand years ago? Hmm, maybe you guys need to look into some of our text books again and come up with new theories to answer my questions.

That was quote from Zhuang member that used to post with us awhile back not a research paper. Why dont guys tell me why would the Zhuang want to claim your ancestors?

Wait, what!? First there are Vietnamese living in Guangxi of China right now. And They're a recognized minority group in China. If you say some places in South China carry Tai names, please list them, but keep in mind that modern languages are way different from ancient languages. I think you got it from another article which said the names of some places in Southern China might be traced back to have their origin in Tai language. If so, please list the modern name and show the etymology. Thirdly, how do you know that there's no place in Southern China whose name can be traced back to Viet language? The name of the Yangtzi River itself came from a Viet word which means "River", meaning some group of people whose language was similar to that of Vietnamese must have inhabited around the Yangtzi River. I've posted this several times, couldn't you read it?
About the legends: If you don't have any legends or record about the Van Lang kingdom, that means your people were never part of it, so stop claiming it as your own. Vietnamese are the only ones who preserve tons of legends about this kingdom. We are the only ones who have memory and record about this kingdom. What you're doing is picking up a Viet history book and read it; fascinizing by what's written in Viet history, you're trying to claim it as your own. What's written in that article is like straight out from Viet history books.
about the toad, Vietnamese people worshipped the toad as well. A very well-known Viet saying is that "The toad is the uncle of the Heavenly God". Another very well-known belief in Vietnam is that every the toad grind its teeth, the heavenly god will hear and know that the Toad wants rain so he'll order for the Rain God to make Rain.
Tai people could not be Luo Yue (lac Viet) because tai people have always lived in high land, inner land, mountainous areas. Them Vietnamese legends say that luo Yue people were from the sea or living near the sea. According to Chinese history, Luo Yue people were the group of people who lived in the "COASTAL PLAIN" or low land. Confucius said that Luo Yue people were good of wet rice cultivating (easy to understand because they lived in low land where it was suitable to grow wet rice). He also said Luo Yue people had a custom of chewing betel, drank tea, loved singing and dancing...These characteristics are clearly Viet attributes. Viet people have always lived in the coastal areas or low land; chewing betel is one of the major cultural habits of old Viet people (though young Vietnamese don't chew it anymore, old Vietnamese still do); wet rice cultivating, drinking tea...these are all characteristics of Viet people. tai people can claim that their origin is from yunnan, sichuan, Northern Lao, Northwester Vietnam or whatever, but don't all those places are "inland" places and not "coastal" places? You guys were the highland people, we Viet were the lowland or coastal people, meaning that it's modern Vietnamese who are the direct descendant of the luo Yue, not Tai people.

Common man, like i said that if there's 80 million kinhs today, how come there's not much evidence of them in Southeasthern China? What are those Vietnamese minority called in Guangxi? please let us know. Dont tell me they're the Zhuang people.

Many experts believe that from Northern Vietnam north of Hanoi to southeatshern China was the origin of the Tai(yue) people.

Did you know that Tai people chew bectel and cultivate rice too? the oldest rice cultivating culture in the world is found in Sotheasthern China.

"Places names such as the names of the rivers, hills, and villages not only serve as location references, but provide, in fact, a wealth of information about an ethnic group of people."

"The present article studies the village names in six counties of the Guangxi-Zhuang Autonomous Region in China in comparison with the village names in four changwats int eh northeastern part of Thailand. The main purpose of the study is to see whether there is any difference in the way of the Zhuang and the Thai name their villages."

"Also, it is hoped that the study will reveal the ways of living of these two Tai ethnic groups. Finally, it is expected that the study of the Zhuang village names will tell whether the northern Zhuang and the southern Zhuang, living close to each other, differ or not in the way they name their villages."

"It is found that almost all names are made up of two words."

"90% [of the villages' name] are noun-noun or noun-adjective construction"

The evidence is all around you, all you have to do is listen and learn.

It is commonly agreed the Vietnamese are descendants of an ancient Mon-Khmer people originating in the area of modern day Thailand along with her closest relatives the Khmer, Mon, Lawa, etc.

The region of southeast coastal China is commonly agreed to be the homeland of Daic and Austronesian speaking people.

Evidence can be found in legends, culture, and excavated remains.

It is impossible for Mon-Khmer Vietnamese to be in the red river delta before Daic.

The Vietnamese are late commers to this region this is very clear.

Thats quite laughable, the claim of Yue being Mon-Khmer is debunked.

What you say does not matter at this point, what is important is that our history books and the history books in modern day China acknowledge they are Daic.

In that sense, Chinese scholars affiliate Daic and Yue as one people which is true.

Nan Yue was not Mon-Khmer, just where do you think the Daic were at this time and period.

Nan Yue's major population were the Tai and Kam-Sui. Dong minority of today were centered around the exit of Pearl river. The language spoken in Nan-Yue was that of the Tai language, it was only after the breakup of Nan-Yue the Tai tribes started migrating westwards. The language substratum on the Chinese dialects from this region is Tai and not Mon-Khmer. It is commonly agreed by Cantonese scholars that their ancestors had mixed with Tai and that it is the Tai people who dominated this region before their northern ancestors invaded.

I know how much you would like for the Yue to be your ancestors and not Daic but you cannot withhold the truth.

The truth is the Yue are Daic and Daic system. Yue culture is Daic culture in everyway, to say Yue culture is Mon-Khmer is rediculous.

Why dont you explain to the AF members where the Yangtze river begins and ends? Your ancestors did not dwell in the Yangtze delta like you are dreaming about, they were in Southwest. There is no evidence whatsoever on Mon-Khmer in the Yangtze Delta, what information/data you have is outdated.

Tibetan-Burmans, Hmong-Miens lived within surrounding areas to Austroasiatic populations around southwest it is possible the Austroasiatic word was passed from this region.

Have you ever asked your government where they got their history from? Seems to me your history is straight out of Tay, Nung, Zhuang legends/history.

Your obsession with Yue and wanting to be connected with China is misguiding your mind,

Come on... Even Dr. Hoang Luong from Department of Anthropology, Hanoi National University, Vietnam agrees. Get your hands on more scholarly material not that nationalistic propaganda.

How did they preserve the legends? The same way Lao and Thai people preserves the Mon, Khmu, and Khmer legends, through assmilation of the native tribes and recorded text. When these people became assimilated along with them they brought their legends and tales. And when a country amplifes the legend to be a national story how can one forget?

You have to study the Tay and Nung people before talking too far ahead, their legend of Au Lac and Van Lang is very clear and extremely detailing. Anyways, I totally agree with Dr. Hoang Luong, finally a gentleman that is doing his job without being bias. Let the true voice of the people be heard.

The Kinh in Guangxi are recent migrants living among the Zhuang on the southern most fringes of China Vietnam border. They are not very large in numbers and their migration is a south to north. There you have it... Where is the rest of the large Lac Viet Vietnamese people?? Haha There isnt anymore because they are not the Lac Viet. Suprisngly the area where the large Lac Viet dwelled is populated with the Daic.

Zhuang legends are filled with Van Lang and Au Lac material!!!

As a matter of fact Kinh scholars refer to the Tay legends to edit their material! The Tay legends are very very detailing!

You are describing Tai culture. Tai people lived the coastal life, you can find this coastal life documented in our weaved textiles similar to some Austronesians. Lets not get into DANCING and SINGING we know the Tai are known for this. In central Tai populations everything in daily life is basically dine through singing. Lowland rice cultivation is the life of a Tai, we live just to grow, we are agriculturalist people.

Miss, evidence still show that they were the majority in southesthern China and Northern Vietnam prior to the Hans expansion south, it wasnt until majority left that they became minorities in China and Vietnam.

Obviously, the Tai must have had pretty big influence during ancient times because there are still many places with Tai names in the area of their origin.

By the way, they werent called Tai back then so that's why there was no mention of Tai in during ancient times in Chinese history. The word tai words gai=chicken and moo=pig are found in chinese as well.

I never said that Kinh werent around the area of Northern Vietnam but they were south of yue that's why they were called Nam Viet.

Hoa Binh is where alot Tay and Nung live too, right?

I dont know if i read it right that you said that most experts arent sure what classification Vietnamese fall under? How can you truely trace out your real origin if you arent sure where your language came from?

Since the Tai had no written history back during ancient times, some of the ways that most experts can connect us to our past and our ancestors is thru our langauge.

After thousands of years of seperation from our point origin, we still can still communicate with the Zhuangs. Have you seen the article written about the Thai princess visiting Guangxi where she didnt need a translator to talk to one of the locals?

Here's something interesting that you should read from your fellow Vietnamese expert.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:5HqNx...cd=25&gl=us
[b]Contributions of the Tai Speaking Ethnic Groups in the Historical Formation of Vietnam