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Full Version: 1956 North Vietnam declares paracel& Spratley china's territor
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lilzz
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha
(Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories


http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Paracel_Spratly.html
XigonCongchua
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...40&start=40

QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Dec 13 2007, 11:10 PM) [snapback]3366911[/snapback]
This is from forgeCool, I'm gonna translate some lines to you
- From 1816, the Nguyen kings had constantly send his navy to Hoàng Sa to control and protect the archipelago.
- Hoàng Sa had long been under the administration of Đà Nẵng province since the 17th century. This was recorded in many history books like Hoàng Việt Địa Cư Chí, Đại Nam Nhất Thống Chí etc. On the other hands, China has only started to establish administration on Hoàng Sa since 1909 (3 centuries after Vietnam).
- "The Journal of The Geographical Society of London", vol 19, 1849, page 97, said that Vietnam has established military bases and tax-collecting stations on Hoàng Sa.
- Western journalists like Le Poivre (1749), J Chaigneau (1816-1819), Taberd (1833), Gutzlaff (1849)… all affirmed that Hoàng Sa was a territory of Việt Nam.
- The map "An Nam Đại Quốc" by Bishop Taberd in the book Latino – Anamiticum (1838) showed Paracel Seu as part of Annam but ommited Hainan (which belonged to China).



QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 13 2007, 11:12 PM) [snapback]3366917[/snapback]
Whatever, in 1956 North Vietnam gave them officially
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha
(Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Paracel_Spratly.html



QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Dec 13 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]3366923[/snapback]
you should go check the reliablity of your source embarassedlaugh.gif

Would you rather believe in that single website or a set of documents from different authors of different countries in the 1600s, 1700s and 1800s embarassedlaugh.gif Internet today can be full of crappy stuff laugh.gif
lilzz
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Dec 14 2007, 02:18 AM) [snapback]3366930[/snapback]


The key point when did you make the offical claim and notify the surrouding countries.
Just put it on your map won't do it since nobody else know.


Just shown you it's not from CHina source, it's from western source.
anyway, most people in china are awared the north vietnamese governemnt renounce their claim.
So, that was a fact. You have nowhere to hide.
XigonCongchua
Somebody translate this to English for lilzz. Nguyen dynasty did make clear their claim of Hoàng Sa
Or else he should go to a library and borrow some books mentioned above to read.

QUOTE
Một là với tính cách nhà nước, đội Hoàng Sa, một tổ chức bán quân sự đă được giao nhiệm vụ, riêng một ḿnh kiểm soát và khai thác định kỳ, liên tục và hoà b́nh hải sản quư cùng các sản vật kể cả súng ống của các tàu đắm tại các đảo Hoàng Sa suốt thời Đại Việt, trong thời các chúa Nguyễn và thời Tây Sơn, tức từ đầu thế kỷ XVII đến năm 1801 và sau đó là buổi đầu triều Nguyễn từ 1802 – đến trước 1815. Từ năm 1816, đội Hoàng Sa phải phối hợp với thủy quân. Hàng năm, đội Hoàng Sa hoạt động trong 6 tháng từ tháng 3 đến tháng 8 âm lịch (tháng 4 đến tháng 9 dương lịch) để phù hợp với điều kiện thời tiết ở vùng biển của quần đảo Hoàng Sa.

Hai là suốt thời nhà Nguyễn, bắt đầu từ 1816, thủy quân được giao trọng trách liên tục kiểm soát, bảo vệ Hoàng Sa và Trường Sa.

Ba là về mặt quản lư hành chánh liên tục suốt trong 4 thế kỷ từ thế kỷ XVII đến năm 1974 (khi Trung Quốc dùng vũ lực cưỡng chiếm), Hoàng Sa được các chính quyền ở Việt Nam để thể hiện quyền lực tối thiểu của ḿnh, đặt dưới sự quản lư hành chánh của Quảng Ngăi (khi là phủ hoặc là trấn hay tỉnh qua từng thời kỳ lịch sử) hoặc của tỉnh Thừa Thiên (thời Pháp thuộc) hoặc của tỉnh Quảng Nam - Đà Nẵng (thời chia cắt Nam Bắc) rồi đến thành phố Đà Nẵng (thời thống nhất đất nước).

Việc xác định sự quản hạt này hoặc đựợc ghi trong các sách địa lư của nhà nước biên soạn như bộ Hoàng Việt Địa Dư Chí hoặc Đại Nam Nhất Thống Chí dưới triều Nguyễn, hoặc do chính hoàng đế hay triều đ́nh (Bộ Công) như thời vua Minh Mạng khẳng định, hoặc bằng các dụ, sắc lệnh, quyết định của chính quyền ở Việt Nam như dụ của Bảo Đại, triều đ́nh Huế, Toàn Quyền Đông Dương ở thời Pháp thuộc, hoặc tổng thống, tổng trưởng trong thời kỳ Việt Nam bị chia cắt, hoặc quyết định, nghị quyết của nhà nước, quốc hội thời độc lập thống nhất. Điều này khác với Trung Quốc, chỉ xác định sự quản lư hành chánh sau năm 1909 tức vào năm 1921 và rồi vào năm 1947… có nghĩa là sau Việt Nam hơn 3 thế kỷ. C̣n tất cả chỉ là suy diễn không có bằng chứng cụ thể rơ ràng.

Chính quyền ở Việt Nam qua các thời kỳ lịch sử, ngay cả thời Pháp thuộc, chưa bao giờ từ bỏ chủ quyền của Việt Nam ở quần đảo Hoàng Sa, nên ngay cả khi bị Trung Quốc chiếm đóng trái phép sau chiến tranh thế giới thứ 2 hay năm 1974, quần đảo Hoàng Sa vẫn được tỉnh Quảng Nam và từ năm 1997 đến nay là thành phố Đà Nẵng quản lư.

Bốn là trước thời kỳ bị xâm phạm, bất cứ dưới thời đại nào, nhà nước ở Việt Nam cũng có những hành động tiếp tục khẳng định và thực thi chủ quyền hàng năm như đo đạc thủy tŕnh, để vẽ bản đồ do đội Hoàng Sa cuối thời chúa Nguyễn hay do thủy quân từ năm 1816 dưới triều Nguyễn (bộ Đại Nam Thực Lục Tiền Biên, Đại Nam Thực Lục Chính Biên hoặc Đại Nam Hội Điển Sự Lệ của Nội Các, hoặc Châu Bản triều Nguyễn đă ghi rất rơ, đă được tŕnh bày trong phần tài liệu). Sau này, từ đầu thế kỷ XX cho đến năm 1974, Việt Nam cũng tiếp tục tổ chức các đoàn thám sát, đo đạc, vẽ bản đồ.

Năm là trước thời kỳ bị xâm phạm, dưới triều Nguyễn, nhất là từ năm 1836 trở thành lệ, hàng năm đều luôn luôn tổ chức xây dựng bia chủ quyền từng ḥn đảo. Trong thời bị xâm phạm cũng thế, các chính quyền ở Việt Nam luôn tiếp tục cho dựng bia chủ quyền thay thế bia bị hư hỏng.

Sáu là trước thời kỳ bị xâm phạm, các triều đại Việt Nam, nhất là thời vua Minh Mạng của triều Nguyễn đă cho dựng miếu thờ làm bằng nhà đá (đá san hô), đào giếng mà năm 1909 các đoàn khảo sát đầu tiên của Trung Quốc ở Hoàng Sa đă trông thấy và khẳng định không biết có từ thời nào. Riêng tại đảo Phú Lâm, tài liệu Trung Quốc [ ghi có miếu ghi rơ Hoàng Sa Tự của Việt Nam. Sau khi có sự xâm phạm, chính quyền ở Việt Nam cũng tiếp tục cho xây miếu và nhà thờ.

Bảy là trước thời kỳ bị xâm phạm, dưới triều Nguyễn nhất là thời vua Minh Mạng đă cho trồng cây tại các đảo để cho thuyền bè ở đàng xa nhận thấy, tránh bị nạn, và các nhà nghiên cứu thực vật như La Fontaine cũng thừa nhận các thực vật cây cối ở Hoàng Sa phần lớn có nguồn gốc ở Miền Trung Việt Nam.

Tám là trước thời kỳ bị xâm phạm, dưới triều Gia Long như tài liệu phương Tây của Gutzlaff viết trong The Journal of The Geographical Society of London, vol 19, 1849, trang 97, đă cho biết Việt Nam đă thiết lập trại binh nhỏ và một điểm thu thuế. Đến thời kỳ bị xâm phạm từ năm 1909, các chính quyền Việt Nam lại là chính quyền sớm nhất đă tổ chức các trại lính đồn trú ở đảo Hoàng Sa (Patlle). Trong khi Trung Quốc chỉ cho quân chiếm đóng một thời gian ngắn sau chiến tranh thế giới lần 2 rồi rút đi (năm 1956, Trung Quốc chiếm lại đảo Phú Lâm (Ile Boisée). Đến năm 1974, Trung Quốc dùng vũ lực chiếm trái phép các đảo c̣n lại trong các trận đánh trên đảo và ở biển với hải quân Việt Nam Cộng Hoà, kết thúc vào ngày 20 –1-1974).

Chín là chính quyền ở Việt Nam đă cho xây trạm khí tượng đầu tiên tại đảo Hoàng Sa (Pattle) vào năm 1938 hoạt động trong thời gian dài cho đến khi Trung Quốc chiếm đóng bằng vũ lực năm 1974.

Mười là trước thời kỳ bị xâm phạm tức năm 1909, chính các hoàng đế Việt Nam như vua Minh Mạng và triều đ́nh, cụ thể là Bộ Công đă lên tiếng khẳng định Hoàng Sa là nơi hiểm yếu trong vùng biển của Việt Nam, nằm trong cương vực của Quảng Ngăi.

Mười một là trước khi bị xâm phạm, chưa có một hải đảo nào được nhiều tài liệu chính thức của nhà nước, từ chính sử địa lư của Quốc Sử Quán Triều Nguyễn như Đại Nam Thực Lục Tiền Biên, Đại Nam Thực Lục Chính Biên, hoặc địa dư như Hoàng Việt Dư Địa Chí, Đại Nam Nhất Thống Chí, hoặc sách hội điển, một loại pháp chế ghi những điển chương pháp chế của triều đ́nh như Khâm Định Đại Nam Hội Điển Sự Lệ. Cũng chưa có một hải đảo nào tại Việt Nam lại được những nhà sử học lớn của nước Việt Nam đề cập đến như Lê Quí Đôn trong Phủ Biên Tạp Lục (1776), Phan Huy Chú (1821) trong Lịch Triều Hiến Chương Loại Chí , Dư Địa Chí, hay Nguyễn Thông trong Việt Sử Cương Giám Khảo Lược. Đặc biệt việc xác nhận chủ quyền của Việt Nam trên quần đảo Hoàng Sa lại c̣n do sách của chính người Trung Hoa viết như Hải Ngoại Kư Sự của Thích Đại Sán viết năm 1696. Đó là chưa kể nhiều tác giả tây Phương như là Le Poivre (1749), J Chaigneau (1816-1819), Taberd (1833), Gutzlaff (1849)… cũng đă khẳng định rơ ràng Hoàng Sa thuộc chủ quyền Việt Nam!

Mười hai là bản đồ An Nam Đại Quốc Họa Đồ Của Giám mục Taberd trong cuốn Tự Điển Việt – La Tinh, nhan đề Latino – Anamiticum xuất bản năm 1838 đă ghi rơ : Paracel Seu Cát Vàng ở Biển Đông. Trong khi bản đồ "An Nam" này chỉ vẽ có Paracel Seu Cát Vàng, lại không có vẽ Hải Nam của Trung Quốc trong biển Đông. Rơ ràng bản đồ An Nam Đại Quốc Hoạ Đồ đă minh chứng Cát Vàng tức Hoàng Sa chính là Paracel nằm trong vùng biển của Việt Nam.

Như thế với chức năng kiểm soát sự khai thác các sản vật ở Biển Đông và những hành động cụ thể trực tiếp khai thác các sản vật của Đội Hoàng Sa, một tổ chức dân binh liên tục gần hai thế kỷ suốt từ đầu thế kỷ XVII cho đến năm 1816 cùng những hành động xác lập và thực thi chủ quyền rất cụ thể như nêu cột mốc, dựng bia, xây miếu, trồng cây, đo đạc thủy tŕnh vẽ bản đồ của thủy quân Việt Nam từ năm 1816 dưới sự chỉ đạo trực tiếp của vua và triều đ́nh cũng như những lời tuyên bố của vua , triều đ́nh nhà Nguyễn và sự quản hạt hành chánh vào Quảng Ngăi từ đầu thế kỷ XVII đến đầu thế kỷ XX là những bằng chứng hiển nhiên, bất khả tranh nghị về chủ quyền của Việt Nam tại quần đảo Hoàng Sa. Mọi sự tranh giành chủ quyền với Việt Nam là hành động trái với luật pháp quốc tế.
Sideley
QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 14 2007, 09:08 AM) [snapback]3366909[/snapback]
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha
(Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Paracel_Spratly.html



Those communist traitors sold off Vietnamse territories to our ancestral ennemy for a fistful of weapons. Down with those bastards.

You must know that the northern communist government is in no way representative of the Vietnamese nation.
VietGuy7
QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 14 2007, 02:08 AM) [snapback]3366909[/snapback]
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha
(Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Paracel_Spratly.html

Do some research. Talktohand.gif

1. N. Vietnam was allied with China.
2. N. Vietnam was at war with S. Vietnam.
3. N. Vietnam feared that the US could perminently annex these islands, especially if they could not conquer S. Vietnam.
4. Just in case, they signed them over to China for "safe keeping".
5. 1972: China invites Nixon & Kissinger to Beijing and rolls out the royal carpet for them. Nixon & Kissenger were at the time ordering Operation Linebacker and Linebacker II, which was reminiscent of the fire bombings of Germany and Japan in WWII. One night of the fire bombings of Japan sometimes killed more people than the atomic bombs.
6. 1975: N. Vietnam wins. China refuses to give back island.
7. 1979: China attacks Vietnam.
8. Same Middle Kingdom duplicity occurred during the Ming & Q'ing invasions of Vietnam. China was invited in by one side (during both civil wars), but decided instead to try to conquer and reannex Vietnam.



Gee, with friends like these, who needs enemies? icon_confused.gif
asean.asia
Yes, they are. Who are you to speak. kiss.gif

QUOTE(Sideley @ Dec 14 2007, 04:38 AM) [snapback]3367059[/snapback]
You must know that the northern communist government is in no way representative of the Vietnamese nation.

PhatDiem1954
QUOTE(Sideley @ Dec 14 2007, 04:38 AM) [snapback]3367059[/snapback]
Those communist traitors sold off Vietnamse territories to our ancestral ennemy for a fistful of weapons. Down with those bastards.

You must know that the northern communist government is in no way representative of the Vietnamese nation.


You don't understand Sideley. Read what VietGuy7 wrote.
SoCal
QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 13 2007, 11:08 PM) [snapback]3366909[/snapback]
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha
(Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Paracel_Spratly.html



Our Vietnamese land is full of sacrifice by our ancestors who fought for over 2,000 years. Our land is made of blood and sweat of our ancestors who have sacrifice so much.

It is the Mandate of Heaven that Vietnam has the responsibility to protect and preserve the Southeastern Asia territory.

The Mongols have tried 3 times to invade Southeastern Asia territory and each time, Vietnam was willing to fight and defeat them.
SoCal
Bach Dang Battle Between Vietnamese and Mongols




Thermopylae Battle Between Greeks and Persians

Kambojiya
hey SoCal, make a thread about the Mongol invasion. Do you know where I can find pictures like you provided.....seems interesting.
lilzz
LOL, North Vietnam communists still the official government of vietnam in 2007. Doesn't matter what everybody else said.

When North Vietnam communists attacked the South Vietnam on land. China helped the North communists to attack the South Vietnam at the sea(paracel).


Byron
Doesn't matter. Nothing was signed so this declaration wasn't legally binding so North Vietnam can change their minds anytime. icon_smile.gif

We'll wait until China is weak or busy fighting a war and then take those islands back like what China did when South Vietnam was busy fighting a war with North Vietnam. icon_smile.gif
lilzz
QUOTE(Sideley @ Dec 14 2007, 04:38 AM) [snapback]3367059[/snapback]
Those communist traitors sold off Vietnamse territories to our ancestral ennemy for a fistful of weapons. Down with those bastards.


Islands are not Vietnamese ancestral territory. CHina is the first country to claimed 1885. unless you show me third party source that Vietnam officially claimed the island before 1885.
putting on your map without saying anything doesn't count, since nobody else know.
VietGuy7
^ China claimed Vietnam 2100 years ago, from ~111 BCE to ~1200 CE. China again claimed Vietnam durign the Ming Dynasty, and the Q'ing Dynasty too, I believe. Mongols claimed China 800 years ago.

Claims mean mean nothiing.

---------------------
SoCal,

You do know that Western historians have likened Vietnamese to Spartans, right?

For me, the Japanese Samurai (Bushido) were more like Spartans than we were in cultural mindset. However, we out Spartan the Spartans in never losing.

Besides, Spartan warriors were also ALL gay. At Thermopylae, as everywhere else, they fought in gay pairs on top of their normal battle formations. Homosexuality was not an uncommon occurance amongst the Japanese Samurai, for such deviant behavior naughty.gif is inevitable in those who worship the warrior as the ideal figure of humanity.
lilzz
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 14 2007, 01:49 PM) [snapback]3367582[/snapback]
Claims mean mean nothiing.


Claims means notifying your neighbors and the world and that's why third party people have recorded and awared of that.

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Paracel_Spratly.html

Anyway, your north vietnam govenment renounced all of their claim in 1956. They represent Vietnam today and in the foreseeable future.
Englanda
QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 14 2007, 02:08 AM) [snapback]3366909[/snapback]
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha
(Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Paracel_Spratly.html

You can find a lot of websites that say the US was bombing Vietnam to free it, but you don't have to believe, yeah!

These islands are historically and geographically closer to Vietnam, otherwise we wouldn't claim it.

I know something else which is not Chinese, Tibet.
lilzz
QUOTE(Englanda @ Dec 14 2007, 02:09 PM) [snapback]3367628[/snapback]
You can find a lot of websites that say the US was bombing Vietnam to free it, but you don't have to believe, yeah!

These islands are historically and geographically closer to Vietnam, otherwise we wouldn't claim it.

I know something else which is not Chinese, Tibet.


Then show me a third party link or source,talks are cheap.
VietGuy7
^ Hanoi signed these islands over with the explicity understanding that Beijing would return it. Why TF would anyone just give away their a lands? crazy.gif

I'm sure the Tibetans signed over their lands too. icon_rolleyes.gif
lilzz
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 14 2007, 04:29 PM) [snapback]3367809[/snapback]
^ Hanoi signed these islands over with the explicity understanding that Beijing would return it. Why TF would anyone just give away their a lands? crazy.gif


Where's the link of your source? I don't believe what you said.
VietGuy7
Try common sense. Talktohand.gif




I do have a Univ. of Hawaii ".edu" link, btw, written by a white guy. I don't know why, but I can't find it. It used to always pop up on the first page of a google search query.
lilzz
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 14 2007, 04:57 PM) [snapback]3367842[/snapback]
Try common sense. Talktohand.gif


common sense is overrated, I like hardcore evidences better biggthumpup.gif
SIG_P229
QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 14 2007, 03:08 AM) [snapback]3366909[/snapback]
15 Jun 1956 North Vietnam declares that the Xisha and Nansha
(Spratly) Islands are historically Chinese territories
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Paracel_Spratly.html



laugh.gif

I knew it, those Viet Cong are ****ing traitor!. They're giving away Vietnam land to China. Disgusting...

They're a disgrace to Viet people.
ln030921
QUOTE(SIG_P229 @ Dec 14 2007, 09:03 PM) [snapback]3368116[/snapback]
laugh.gif

I knew it, those Viet Cong are ****ing traitor!. They're giving away Vietnam land to China. Disgusting...

They're a disgrace to Viet people.

Talktohand.gif Oh please! You're the biggest disgrace to all people.
VietGuy7
QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 14 2007, 08:18 PM) [snapback]3368050[/snapback]
common sense is overrated, I like hardcore evidences better biggthumpup.gif

That's b'coz you have none. Talktohand.gif

I'll post it if I can find it. But just to drive the point home, I'll repeat the rhetorical question: "Why the Hell should anyone just give away their land?" confused.gif
SoCal
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 14 2007, 10:49 AM) [snapback]3367582[/snapback]
^ China claimed Vietnam 2100 years ago, from ~111 BCE to ~1200 CE. China again claimed Vietnam durign the Ming Dynasty, and the Q'ing Dynasty too, I believe. Mongols claimed China 800 years ago.

Claims mean mean nothiing.

---------------------
SoCal,

You do know that Western historians have likened Vietnamese to Spartans, right?

For me, the Japanese Samurai (Bushido) were more like Spartans than we were in cultural mindset. However, we out Spartan the Spartans in never losing.

Besides, Spartan warriors were also ALL gay. At Thermopylae, as everywhere else, they fought in gay pairs on top of their normal battle formations. Homosexuality was not an uncommon occurance amongst the Japanese Samurai, for such deviant behavior naughty.gif is inevitable in those who worship the warrior as the ideal figure of humanity.


VietGuy:

There are similarities between Vietnamese and Spartans of Greece. One such similarity is military. Both cultures exhibit the importance of military and defense for the survival.
VietGuy7
QUOTE(SoCal @ Dec 15 2007, 01:36 AM) [snapback]3368584[/snapback]
There are similarities between Vietnamese and Spartans of Greece. One such similarity is military. Both cultures exhibit the importance of military and defense for the survival.

I agree. Talktohand.gif

And so do western scholars as I have mentioned. But I do think the Japanese with their samurai/bushido culture is more akin to the Spartans culturally. However, the Spartans were far more fanatical than the Japanese: They practiced infanticide. If a new born baby merely looked weak, they would put it out to die on a mountain side. At about the age of 6 or 7, boys were removed from their homes, their loving mothers and put thru unbelievable training that's really nothing more than torture. Boys by the age of 12-13, had to fend for themselves. To become a man, a 16-17 boy had to commit murder (usually against the slave of another Spartan) and get away with it; often, they were killed in the process. The greatest glory a Spartan male could achieve in life was to have his name engraved on public memorial walls/tablets saying he had died for the state in war.

The movie 300 only scratched the surface w.r.t. Spartan fanaticism and brutality.

Much of the Japanese fanaticism we hear about comes from the Kamikaze pilots of WWII. Prior to them, the Japanese were no where as fanatical as the Spartans. Heck, in the 1968 Tet Offensive, the US claimed to have killed about 78,000 VC/NVA soldiers who went on a what was effectively suicide mission. So the North Vietnamese could match the WWII Japanese in their fanaticism--in general.

The Arabs/Muslims have taken things to new heights, or lows depending on one's perspective, to put it mildly. crazy.gif
SoCal
VietGuy and Others,

There are several studies about the military technology between Vietnam and China and more recently in the 20th/21st centuries with the Western countries.

http://www.glocom.org/books_and_journals/j...s171/index.html


Foreign military transfers in mainland Southeast Asian wars: adaptations, rejections and change (Introduction) (pp491-493)
Christopher E. Goscha
Abstract:
As in Europe, the transfer, adaptation and utilisation of foreign military knowledge and techniques have contributed greatly to the development of Southeast Asian states. However, it has not always been easy to write about such military transfers when it comes to Southeast Asia.



Military Technology Transfers from Ming China and the Emergence of Northern Mainland Southeast Asia (c. 1390–1527) (pp495-517)
Sun Laichen (The Asia Research Institute, National University Singapore.)
Abstract:
During the late fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries, Chinese gunpowder technology spread to the whole of Southeast Asia via both the overland and maritime routes, long before the arrival of European firearms. The impact of Chinese firearms on northern mainland Southeast Asia in terms of warfare and territorial expansion was profound.



The Transfer of Western Military Technology to Vietnam in the Late Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries: The Case of the Nguyên (pp519-534)
Frédéric Mantienne (The Laboratoire Péninsule Indochinoise, under the école Pratique des Hautes études and the école Française d'Extrême-Orient in Paris.)
Abstract:
Vietnamese rulers of the Nguyên Dynesty showed considerable interest in foreign military technology. Their adoption and adaptation of this technology constitute an important chapter in the history Vietnam's relations with the West.



Building force: Asian origins of twentieth-century military science in Vietnam (1905–54) (pp535-560)
Christopher E. Goscha (The Institut d'Asie Orientale (Lyon))
Abstract:
This article examines the Asian channels through which foreign military knowledge flowed into Vietnam during the first half of the twentieth century. Using the Vietnamese opposition to the creation of the French colonial state of Indochina between 1905 and 1954, it is argued that there is an Asian context that needs to be taken into consideration when studying twentieth-century military and technical transfers and adaptations in Vietnam.


erie07
QUOTE(SoCal @ Dec 14 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]3367190[/snapback]
Our Vietnamese land is full of sacrifice by our ancestors who fought for over 2,000 years. Our land is made of blood and sweat of our ancestors who have sacrifice so much.

It is the Mandate of Heaven that Vietnam has the responsibility to protect and preserve the Southeastern Asia territory.

The Mongols have tried 3 times to invade Southeastern Asia territory and each time, Vietnam was willing to fight and defeat them.

We have fought the Chinese for thousand years. In any generation, there have always been millions of us willing to die to protect our sacred land. We have shed our blood for Hoang Sa and Truong Sa. We want peace, but we are ready to shed more blood for Hoang Sa and Truong Sa.
erie07
QUOTE(SoCal @ Dec 14 2007, 08:36 AM) [snapback]3367240[/snapback]
Bach Dang Battle Between Vietnamese and Mongols


Thermopylae Battle Between Greeks and Persians


We need to copy Ngo Quyen's similar tactics on Bach Dang or need another Ngo Quyen. We don't need to fight the Chinese head-to-head, but to frustrate them to make them leave Hoang Sa and Truong Sa.

lilzz
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 15 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]3368512[/snapback]
That's b'coz you have none. Talktohand.gif

I'll post it if I can find it. But just to drive the point home, I'll repeat the rhetorical question: "Why the Hell should anyone just give away their land?" confused.gif



first they are not land, they're island. why? because those island are most uninhabited and they don't know the implication of oil.

also, China gave alot of assistance to Vietcongs. Vietcongs have nothing else to pay back.
china helped vietcongs to attack the southern dogs.

that's a very stupid question, land concession happens throughout history between countries. that's common sense for ya.
VietGuy7
lilzz,

First, Get TF outta here if you're gonna take that attitude. It's bad enough you don't know what you're talking about, but it's just insufferable when you're obnoxious on top of it.


China attacked Vietnam 10 times in the last 1000 years, China attacked India in 1962. China has border skirmishes with practically of of China's neighbors.

Translation: China was, is & always will be the aggressor.

You're fukken retarded if you keep denying this simple fact. crazy.gif

QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 15 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]3369160[/snapback]
first they are not land, they're island. why? because those island are most uninhabited and they don't know the implication of oil.

Islands are land. crazy.gif

QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 15 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]3369160[/snapback]
also, China gave alot of assistance to Vietcongs.

Vietcong were in S. Vietnam. Not North Vietnam. crazy.gif

QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 15 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]3369160[/snapback]
Vietcongs have nothing else to pay back.

Vietnam paid triannual tributes to China for centuries for the purpose of peace and got back in return invasion after invasion.

QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 15 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]3369160[/snapback]
china helped vietcongs to attack the southern dogs.

Any western scholar, i.e. neutral 3rd party, says that during the Vietnam War, China was "fighting the Yankee imperialists down to the last Vietnamese". It was nothing more than another point in a long line of Middle Kingom treachery disguised as helping others. crazy.gif


QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 15 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]3369160[/snapback]
that's a very stupid question, land concession happens throughout history between countries. that's common sense for ya.

China has attacked and backstabbed Vietnam repeatedly in the last 1000 years. Add that to your common sense. crazy.gif


QUOTE
claims all islands in the Spratly region. According to Marcus Hall's "Trouble Brewing in the South China Sea" assessment, China entered the dispute in three phases.(9) The first phase encompassed China's claim to the Paracel Islands (which are north of the Spratly Islands) in the 1950s. The second phase took place in 1974, when China seized the Paracel Islands from Vietnam. The third phase began on 14 March 1988, with China's military engagement with Vietnamese forces over the removal of China's flag from a newly claimed shoal. The military clash resulted in China gaining possession of 6 islands in the Spratly region.

China's claim to all islands in the Spratly archipelago stems from its historical presence in the region, dating as far back as the Han dynasty of the 2nd century, BC.(10) According to Marcus Hall's evaluation, China's historical claim is dubious and neglects similar historical claims by Taiwan, Vietnam and Malaysia.(11) Moreover, China's historical interpretation of its sovereignty rights ignores current international law.

Source: http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/spratly.htm


Here some more common sense for you: China promised to settle the issue thru international courts, but just doesn't seem to want to follow thru. If China's claims are legit, then China shouldn't have any problems winning. crazy.gif
VietGuy7
QUOTE(lilzz @ Dec 15 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]3369160[/snapback]
also, China gave alot of assistance to Vietcongs. Vietcongs have nothing else to pay back.
china helped vietcongs to attack the southern dogs.

Don't want to be cruel but... If you want to see a "dog", just look in the mirror.
lilzz
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 15 2007, 12:16 PM) [snapback]3369232[/snapback]
Don't want to be cruel but... If you want to see a "dog", just look in the mirror.


I saw in your sig hahaha.

let's put it this way, without the help of China, Northern Vietnamese communists would be killed by US and its southern followers. China's help not only allowed the northern Vietnam communists to survive but most important enabled them to grab the whole vietnam on the mainland.

why wouldn't the Northern Vietnam Communists want to make some concession on some uninhabitable island in Exchange for survival and the chance to get the whole vietnam on the mainland???

I bet you would do it too if you were northern vietnam communists..

now that's Another Common Sense for Ya"
VietGuy7
Deny it all you want. Talktohand.gif


QUOTE
1974
China disregards territorial claims by South Vietnam, and occupies the Paracel Islands lying north of the Spratly Islands. U.S. and South Vietnam naval forces clash over island ownership.

1992
In September, China drills on the Vietnamese side of the Gulf of Tonkin median line, violating the 1972 agreement not to drill in disputed waters.

1997
In March, China allegedly began operating the Kan Tan III oil rig in an area north of the Spratly Islands, but within Vietnam's EEZ.


Joint Development:

A 1992 ASEAN declaration, endorsed by China, stipulated that Spratly-related territorial disputes would be resolved by peaceful means. China, however, proceeded with foreign company contracts to explore areas with overlapping sovereignty claims in 1994, and in 1995 destroyed Philippino military structures and erected Chinese concrete markers on the Philippine-claimed Mischief Reef. These antagonistic moves by China, virtually renders the 1992 joint declaration null and void.

Source: http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/spratly.htm

There we have it: China is constantly violating agreements and treaties.


P.S. As if China could have defeated the Japanese without the US... crazy.gif
allegg


I don't think that Vietnam government is serious about the islands.

China has occupied them for 30 years, and it is not like that China would return them to Vietnam simply Vietnam is asking for them.

Would Vietnam return any land if it has occupied it for 30 days.

You can cry about it all you like, but it is over, my friends.

VietGuy7
QUOTE(allegg @ Dec 15 2007, 01:08 PM) [snapback]3369286[/snapback]
I don't think that Vietnam government is serious about the islands.

Being "serious" and militarily powerless are not the same thing. Vietnam has no Navy compared to China, or Taiwan for that matter.

QUOTE(allegg @ Dec 15 2007, 01:08 PM) [snapback]3369286[/snapback]
China has occupied them for 30 years, and it is not like that China would return them to Vietnam simply Vietnam is asking for them.

Would Vietnam return any land if it has occupied it for 30 days.

You can cry about it all you like, but it is over, my friends.

So I guess stealing is okay. crazy.gif Sounds like typical Chinese logic. icon_rolleyes.gif

Uh... Vietnam lost a large strip of land running the entire length of the Western border, when the French colonized Vietnam and gave it back to Laos and Cambodia. Were not asking for this land back. Older maps of precolonial Vietnam had Vietnam as a significantly "fatter" country, maybe 15% fatter.

There's a big difference between annexing land during the "age of empires" and stealing land in the modern age: League of Nations, UN, The Hague. crazy.gif
Bulldogg
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 15 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]3369314[/snapback]
Vietnam has no Navy compared to China, or Taiwan for that matter.
So I guess stealing is okay. crazy.gif Sounds like typical Chinese logic. icon_rolleyes.gif


Wow, its amazeing i'm gonna sate my reply here and it will hit home hard especially to the Viet community especially on here.

To this day and i'm sure for a long while more, the Vietnamese still claim China as the bullies new generations of Vietnamese somehow find their way back to retrace history and the 1000+ Chinese(Han, Ming dynasty etc... domination on Vietnam(Annam, Nam Viet etc...) So here goes.

Fast forward, China stopped meddleing in Vietnam for a time being because it was too busy with their own internal affairs. Step in the French and other Europeans invadeing S.E.A finally makeing it French(Indo-China) Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam all a part of France territory.

Lets fast super forward now.

Revolutionary leader Uncle Ho Chi Minh reached out for help to the U.S.S.R and Peoples Republic of China, the deal was reached where the U.S.S.R would supply firearms and other military equipment means to Vietnam where as China would offer 60,000-70,000 strong armed men and also a home training base in province GuangXi, China just across the N.Vietnam border. Because of the assistance of the 2 other super powers at the time, eventually North Vietnam was able to conquer South Vietnam and reunite the whole. This situation was forced upon by the S.Vietnam government at the time, Ho Chi Minh wanted an election to be fair and square to see who would run Vietnam and be the legitimate leader before the Vietnam war. Unfortunately this is how S AND N. were divided and a war would be brewing to happen.

Vietnam could not have won the war by themselves against a strong backed U.S and allies S.Vietnam.

Vietnamese of today bash Chinese because of past rule, but what about Vietnamese? We all know how the central government of Vietnam still controls the country of Laos and also Vietnamese military still has occupancy in the country of Laos, Vietnamese abolishing the Khmer Rouge Regime who were allies of China, thus Vietnam today carry still a heavy influence in Cambodia and their government. Both Laos and Cambodia are silent puppets to the central government of Vietnam as we speak today.

Here's the verdict, if i were to go on, i would piss people off even more!

Vietnam blames China for their past 1000+ rule but this all stopped 400-500 years ago and Vietnam has been on her own ever since to govern it self, however more recent events such as the French colonial rule and the U.S involvement dureing the Vietnam war is almost never speaked upon.

The French and U.S are the most recent invaders and has set back Vietnam into a flourishing country until the last decade, the French and U.S more viciously destroyed Vitenam and her lands because of more advance weapons, instead of just swords and horses.

Yet the Vietnamese dislike Chinese more in the new millineum?
It was China who harboured Uncle Ho Chi Minh at 1 time, Uncle Ho worked for Mao Zedong and held high office. Uncle Ho lived in Hong Kong and Guangzhou, China. He also learned his trade with U.S.S.R too and the French communists.

I do not dislike Uncle Ho, but its the generation of Vietnam leaders afterwards who have no respect.
If it weren't for China and the U.S.S.R we would be seeing a totally different Vietnam these days, still North and South forsure. And not as rich for the North, however the South would be rich although it would be a U.S.A puppet, much like N and S. Korea after the Korean war.

The truth hurts?

asean.asia
The problem is you think whatever you think is the TRUTH and others think it's your assessment. kiss.gif laugh.gif

Truth to you or truth to everyone. kiss.gif

I don't blame you since everyone thinks his assessment is the truth. laugh.gif


QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 15 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]3369410[/snapback]
Wow, its amazeing i'm gonna sate my reply here and it will hit home hard especially to the Viet community especially on here.

To this day and i'm sure for a long while more, the Vietnamese still claim China as the bullies new generations of Vietnamese somehow find their way back to retrace history and the 1000+ Chinese(Han, Ming dynasty etc... domination on Vietnam(Annam, Nam Viet etc...) So here goes.

Fast forward, China stopped meddleing in Vietnam for a time being because it was too busy with their own internal affairs. Step in the French and other Europeans invadeing S.E.A finally makeing it French(Indo-China) Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam all a part of France territory.

Lets fast super forward now.

Revolutionary leader Uncle Ho Chi Minh reached out for help to the U.S.S.R and Peoples Republic of China, the deal was reached where the U.S.S.R would supply firearms and other military equipment means to Vietnam where as China would offer 60,000-70,000 strong armed men and also a home training base in province GuangXi, China just across the N.Vietnam border. Because of the assistance of the 2 other super powers at the time, eventually North Vietnam was able to conquer South Vietnam and reunite the whole. This situation was forced upon by the S.Vietnam government at the time, Ho Chi Minh wanted an election to be fair and square to see who would run Vietnam and be the legitimate leader before the Vietnam war. Unfortunately this is how S AND N. were divided and a war would be brewing to happen.

Vietnam could not have won the war by themselves against a strong backed U.S and allies S.Vietnam.

Vietnamese of today bash Chinese because of past rule, but what about Vietnamese? We all know how the central government of Vietnam still controls the country of Laos and also Vietnamese military still has occupancy in the country of Laos, Vietnamese abolishing the Khmer Rouge Regime who were allies of China, thus Vietnam today carry still a heavy influence in Cambodia and their government. Both Laos and Cambodia are silent puppets to the central government of Vietnam as we speak today.

Here's the verdict, if i were to go on, i would piss people off even more!

Vietnam blames China for their past 1000+ rule but this all stopped 400-500 years ago and Vietnam has been on her own ever since to govern it self, however more recent events such as the French colonial rule and the U.S involvement dureing the Vietnam war is almost never speaked upon.

The French and U.S are the most recent invaders and has set back Vietnam into a flourishing country until the last decade, the French and U.S more viciously destroyed Vitenam and her lands because of more advance weapons, instead of just swords and horses.

Yet the Vietnamese dislike Chinese more in the new millineum?
It was China who harboured Uncle Ho Chi Minh at 1 time, Uncle Ho worked for Mao Zedong and held high office. Uncle Ho lived in Hong Kong and Guangzhou, China. He also learned his trade with U.S.S.R too and the French communists.

I do not dislike Uncle Ho, but its the generation of Vietnam leaders afterwards who have no respect.
If it weren't for China and the U.S.S.R we would be seeing a totally different Vietnam these days, still North and South forsure. And not as rich for the North, however the South would be rich although it would be a U.S.A puppet, much like N and S. Korea after the Korean war.

The truth hurts?
Placebo
Why do you guys bother paying your attention to a little idiot? Let him tell his story. Who cares when a person with mental illness says some stupid things?
VietGuy7
QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 15 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]3369410[/snapback]
Vietnam could not have won the war by themselves against a strong backed U.S and allies S.Vietnam.

And China defeated the Japanese in WWII? confused.gif

genius.gif The US did it. MORON.

If it wasn't for the US, Imperial Japanese troops would still be spitting on Chinese, whom they referred to as "the sick man of Asia". Talktohand.gif

BTW, they did a lot more than just spit on Chinese. icon_rolleyes.gif

By your logic, 1,300,000,0000 Chinese should always bow down to Uncle Sam.



bowdown.gif bowdown.gif bowdown.gif


QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 15 2007, 03:26 PM) [snapback]3369410[/snapback]
The truth hurts?

Yep. I'm sure it does. icon_wink.gif



P.S. Don't use logic that can come back and bite you in the azz. Only an idiot would do that.

P.P.S. It was in China's interests to keep Vietnam divided, just as the Korean peninsula is today. Beijing is not directly killing the millions of N. Koreans who've died from starvation or in those Kim Jong Idiot gulags, but they are 100% responsible for what goes on there. Every expert will tell you that N. Korea would simply implode if Beijing cut it's marionette strings (oil/gas pipelines) to it's puppet regime. The N. Koreans are only free to do what the HELL ever they want to do in the context of Beijing's ruthless pragmatism and geopolticial interests. Translation: THEY ARE NOT FREE AT ALL. BTW, Beijing could easily feed the N. Koreans. But they don't now, do they? crazy.gif

P.P.P.S. The same can be said of that tragic episode in Cambodia, i.e. the killing fields. Beijing never cares what their puppet regimes do, only that they follow Beijing's interests.

P.P.P.P.S. Darfur anyone? confused.gif If it wasn't for the likes of George Clooney and other activists worldwide, Beijing would give a $hit about what's going on their, just one year prior to their comming out: the 2008 Olympics.
Bulldogg
QUOTE(Placebo @ Dec 15 2007, 05:27 PM) [snapback]3369545[/snapback]
Why do you guys bother paying your attention to a little idiot? Let him tell his story. Who cares when a person with mental illness says some stupid things?


Stupid things?
Why? can you please back it up without personal dis-taste?

This is all facts, turth, and historical.
If you think my post is stupid and useless.

Than i wish U.S.S.R and Mao Zedongs(China) should not have helped North Vietnam and helped Uncle Ho in the Vietnam war.
If only those 2 countries and their past leaders knew today what Vietnam thinks of those 2 especially China, the 2 big super-powers back in the 1960's-1975 who were the only ones capable of helping N & S Vietnam reunite.

VietGuy7
^ Try putting things in their historical context rather than cherry-picking your "facts". Things out of context lose their meaning. China didn't defeat her Japanese occupiers either. Chinese aggression against Vietnam is hardly an exception. It's an annoying pattern...
Bulldogg
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 15 2007, 08:29 PM) [snapback]3369902[/snapback]
And China defeated the Japanese in WWII? confused.gif

genius.gif The US did it. MORON.

The U.S.A did not do it all, the U.S.,A was looking out for herself because of the Japan invasion of Pearl Harbour, it was the K.M.T and Communist China forces who would reunite for 1 time only along with U.S.A assistance.

To me, your support for Uncle Sam tells it all, i understand your the over-seas Cong-Hoa the 3 red stripes and yellow flag supporter. Have you been back to Vietnam or visited your roots?
People who grow up in North America specifically in the U.S.A believe that the U.S.A still won the Vietnam war, unless people like me dig into history and realize that it's all a lie.

You preach about Uncle Sam, yet Uncle Sam destroyed the land of Vietnam 10 x more than altogether the 1000 years Chinese domination.
Talk about the more recent history of the French and U.S.A domination on Vietnam, than we can say a truce.

Get over it, the last Chinese rule was around the 1400;'s, the last French rule was in the early 1900;'s and the U.S.A is the most recent occupiers trying to rule the land thru being a silent occupier of S.Vietnam but failed.

How about you negative Chinese bashers talk about how the French and U.S.A treated you guys, after all its more recent Or are many of you stuck in the 1400's?

And to me Viet-Guy your name callins are unjustified, I am a proud supporter of the Cong-Sans, but not the Cong-Hoas. However only the Cong-Sans who were loyal to Uncle Ho and who respected the help of China and U.S.S.R, not the Cong-Sans who backstabbed and today say Chinese and Russians are the real bad guys.
VietGuy7
^ What are you? Viet? Chinese-Viet?

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]3370660[/snapback]
The U.S.A did not do it all, the U.S.,A was looking out for herself because of the Japan invasion of Pearl Harbour, it was the K.M.T and Communist China forces who would reunite for 1 time only along with U.S.A assistance.

They could have done it all. They had the bomb remember? crazy.gif

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]3370660[/snapback]
To me, your support for Uncle Sam tells it all, i understand your the over-seas Cong-Hoa the 3 red stripes and yellow flag supporter. Have you been back to Vietnam or visited your roots?
People who grow up in North America specifically in the U.S.A believe that the U.S.A still won the Vietnam war, unless people like me dig into history and realize that it's all a lie.

I have no loyalties to S. Vietnam, nor to N. Vietnam. I'm in the middle. Guess that means I'm loyal to Hue. biggrin.gif

I bash Yankee imperialism all the time. But from the point of view of an American citizen, a progressive liberal democrat, not a foreign agent. Otherwise, I'd leave the US.

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]3370660[/snapback]
You preach about Uncle Sam, yet Uncle Sam destroyed the land of Vietnam 10 x more than altogether the 1000 years Chinese domination.

Bullsh!t. Talktohand.gif

Remember who took our records in the 1400's? We lost about 1500 years worth of records because of the Ming. This on top of the utter devastation many of the invasions wreaked upon Vietnam. crazy.gif

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]3370660[/snapback]
Talk about the more recent history of the French and U.S.A domination on Vietnam, than we can say a truce.

French colonialism and American imperialism was brutal. But a one time deal. The Chinese have invaded us 10+ times in the last millenium. They owned us for the millenium before that.

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]3370660[/snapback]
Get over it, the last Chinese rule was around the 1400;'s, the last French rule was in the early 1900;'s and the U.S.A is the most recent occupiers trying to rule the land thru being a silent occupier of S.Vietnam but failed.

Bullsh!t. Talktohand.gif

The last invasion was in 1979. Don't forget the Q'ing invasion too. crazy.gif

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]3370660[/snapback]
How about you negative Chinese bashers talk about how the French and
U.S.A treated you guys, after all its more recent Or are many of you stuck in the 1400's?

Look at all the border skirmishes the Chinese have with their neighbors. They attacked India in 1962.

How many violent incidents over the Spratleys? Killing of innocent fishermen?

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:03 AM) [snapback]3370660[/snapback]
And to me Viet-Guy your name callins are unjustified, I am a proud supporter of the Cong-Sans, but not the Cong-Hoas. However only the Cong-Sans who were loyal to Uncle Ho and who respected the help of China and U.S.S.R, not the Cong-Sans who backstabbed and today say Chinese and Russians are the real bad guys.

If the shoe fits... Talktohand.gif

America will never attack Vietnam again. Get over it. crazy.gif

Not the case with the Chinese. icon_rolleyes.gif

If Vietnam attacks an American ally, then America might attack Vietnam. But I don't see that in the cards.

All indications point in the direction of mutual security interests between Vietnam & US. Washington has been courting Hanoi real hard; Hanoi has been playing hard to get, that's all.
Bulldogg
QUOTE(VietGuy7 @ Dec 16 2007, 07:18 AM) [snapback]3370670[/snapback]
^ What are you? Viet? Chinese-Viet?
America will never attack Vietnam again. Get over it. crazy.gif

Not the case with the Chinese. icon_rolleyes.gif

If Vietnam attacks an American ally, then America might attack Vietnam. But I don't see that in the cards.

All indications point in the direction of mutual security interests between Vietnam & US. Washington has been courting Hanoi real hard; Hanoi has been playing hard to get, that's all.


Chinese- Viet. that's all you need to know for now, maybe i'll tell you my wife and her heritage some other day and my group of friends.

I agree with alot of your points and respect it, i would like to spin off and say, how do you feel about the past agressors that's all?

I think you're jumping into conclusions, the French did try to reclaim Vietnam after WWII, but failed and only had S.Vietnam to show for it until that fell apart.

You have to understand also China is alot different these days, you have to understand that China and Vietnam have been doing alot of buisness too.

It was only recent that the new generation of Vietnam government opend its arms to the U.S.A. Bu than again U.S.A has her own motives, they still can't accept the defeat from the Vietnam war.
VietGuy7
QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]3370681[/snapback]
Chinese- Viet. that's all you need to know for now, maybe i'll tell you my wife and her heritage some other day and my group of friends.

This says it all. Talktohand.gif

You strongly identify with your Chinese ancestry. Many here, NOT me, have recent Chinese ancestry but identify FULLY with Vietnam & Vietnamese.

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]3370681[/snapback]
I agree with alot of your points and respect it, i would like to spin off and say, how do you feel about the past agressors that's all?

France, Japan, US are all one time deals, regardless of how bad they were. The Chinese are like a bad recurring rash that keeps coming back.

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]3370681[/snapback]
I think you're jumping into conclusions, the French did try to reclaim Vietnam after WWII, but failed and only had S.Vietnam to show for it until that fell apart.

As if France wants to reconquer her old colonies? crazy.gif As if France has the military capability to retake Vietnam? crazy.gif

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]3370681[/snapback]
You have to understand also China is alot different these days, you have to understand that China and Vietnam have been doing alot of buisness too.

You really believe that N. Korea could stand on its own two feet if Beijing cut off the oil and gas?

QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]3370681[/snapback]
It was only recent that the new generation of Vietnam government opend its arms to the U.S.A. Bu than again U.S.A has her own motives, they still can't accept the defeat from the Vietnam war.

Wrong. Talktohand.gif

During the Carter Admin, they even talked of reparations along the lines of $3-4 Billion. The US has moved on a long time ago. Only the Pentagon was still haunted by the ghost of Vietnam, i.e. Iraq 2003.



BTW, sorry for the name calling. You're obnoxious, but you didn't/don't intend to be.
erie07
QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Dec 16 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]3370681[/snapback]
You have to understand also China is alot different these days, you have to understand that China and Vietnam have been doing alot of buisness too.


It is not too difficult to find the reasons why the Vietnamese are so mad about the Chinese. Take the 1979 invasion, for example. The Chinese and the Americans were supporting Polpot, and the Chinese invaded Vietnam amid this China-US brotherhood. Take another, the recent killing Vietnamese at sea. These were unarmed fishermen.

For other past invaders, we are practical, and we want to move on. There is no point for us keep bashing the french, Americans, or Japanese forever. We want to develop our country.


But the problems with the Chinese are present. No Vietnamese are happy with the Chinese for the last 30 years, even for the ones who like to have good relation with China. When China is going to stop bullying us? What choices are left for us to do?

I'm sure we will make friends with the Chinese at some point in the future, as we always made peace with the Chinese numerous times in the past.


But for now, the last statement from the Chinese goverment about the protest in Hanoi about Hoang sa and Truong Sa indicates the Chinese don't want frienship.
MrShao
vietnam's foreign policy towards her neighboring countries is ' help I take it, differences I shove it'

after Vietnam proves to be the winner of her own destiny, her ambition can be also extraordinary. flip-flopping over the islands (1956,1976) is just one of the steps from boys to men, so to speak. indo-china unity is another albeit failed manifestation.

one time good friend can be mortal enemy because good friend has an opinion over your treatment of a third person. what's friendship may i ask?

Conclusion: Vietnam trusts none of her neighbors because she uses the same yardstick to measure the others. These 1000 yrs old news are recycled to reaffirm their point. a super-realist country. i don't know what vietnam stands for. friend and enemy are clearly undefined.

ps china still honors the relationship with north korea despite nk gives china nothing but problems.
erie07
QUOTE(MrShao @ Dec 16 2007, 01:39 PM) [snapback]3371032[/snapback]
one time good friend can be mortal enemy because good friend has an opinion over your treatment of a third person. what's friendship may i ask?


So the manly Chinese is guilty or not guilty of the crime against humanity for the genocide in Cambodia?
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