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Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Asian Culture > Malaysian Chat > Malaysian Serious Talk
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sonofgunongjerai
QUOTE(Meruboy @ Jun 11 2008, 02:54 PM) [snapback]3749209[/snapback]
Gunungjerai, if you say that the Javanese introduced wayang kulit to the Chams, then it's indeed Javanese origin.... And to the Javanese of Indonesia, we Javanese of Malaysia has every right to claim wayang as ours too. since we are Javanese also beerchug.gif

If the Indo govt disapprove of Malaysian claims, I guess Saudi Arabia will sue Libya n Algeria for stealing their culture too embarassedlaugh.gif

Topik kiye kok wes melaku suwi banget. Tutup whae lah.... Talktohand.gif


Wayang Purwa is undeniably Javanese, yea Javanese and persons from Javanese community in Malaysia have their right for that particular Wayang, they are "Javanese" and not Malay. Wayang Gelek or Nang Thalung is our version of Wayang, it is different and going through long process of evolution although the origin was from Java and it has nothing to do with any Indonesian arts.

Your points are reasonable too. Supposedly case closed.

บทปิดได้,ไม่ใช่ปัญหาใหญ่, จะเป็นไรไปเล่า munch.gif

sonofgunongjerai
QUOTE(Meruboy @ Jun 11 2008, 02:54 PM) [snapback]3749209[/snapback]
Gunungjerai, if you say that the Javanese introduced wayang kulit to the Chams, then it's indeed Javanese origin....


Khmers too have their version of Wayang, basically their Wayang story is cultivated from Reamkar written in Thai as รามเกียรติ์ verses, pronounced in Thai style as Ramakien. Ramayana in Thailand and Cambodia is based from Ramakirtti version of Ramayana, originated from Bengal. Well, this Ramayana story was written by an ancient Indian, suppose that we in SEA stealing their culture? It is still from Ramyan even when we modify the version according to local environment.

Chams are different people in Cambodia, they have their own city-states or Nagar which are in Vietnam in present day. They seek refuge in Cambodia after being washed out by the Viets.
Meruboy
Sonofgunungjerai,

So far, you are the only person who can make educated claims wrt wayang kulit Malay version biggthumpup.gif

If I may ask, who is Jayavarman II for the Khmers? Was he a runnaway Javanese prince, or a Khmer prince educated in Java? I believe that there was a very strong connection between Khmers & Javanese in the past that both cultures collide & inter mingled. So, no one can actually claim that wayang kulit is solely either Malay (Khmers & Chams' descendants) or Javanese.
sonofgunongjerai
QUOTE(Meruboy @ Jun 13 2008, 02:59 PM) [snapback]3752868[/snapback]
Sonofgunungjerai,

So far, you are the only person who can make educated claims wrt wayang kulit Malay version biggthumpup.gif

If I may ask, who is Jayavarman II for the Khmers? Was he a runnaway Javanese prince, or a Khmer prince educated in Java? I believe that there was a very strong connection between Khmers & Javanese in the past that both cultures collide & inter mingled. So, no one can actually claim that wayang kulit is solely either Malay (Khmers & Chams' descendants) or Javanese.


Jayawarman II was an 8th century king in Cambodia, means in the beginning of Angkor Dynasty period or the End of Chenlar kingdom in the north of Cambodia. Historians commonly date his reign as running from 802 A.D. to 835-850 A.D. He is a Hindu and not a Buddhist. It was stated in an inscription that Jayavarman II had a Brahmana priest to conduct his religious right and following Brahmanism cult which is Dewaraja. He is the first king of Angkor dynasty.

Yes, he was said being a captive in Java court. I can't decipher which dynasty he was held as a captive but I think it is Syailendra dynasty (750 - 850). Funan kingdom faced its downfall when Syailendra Kingdom established by Sriwijayan who attacked Tarumanegara kingdom of West Java Land around 6th century. He escaped from Javanese captivity and travelling back to his country.

Jayawarman II was a prince of Chenlar kingdom. There is a story about Chenlar king had offended the reigning Syailendra King. The Water Chenlar King had wished to see the head of His Majesty Sailendra King's head on the platter before him. To exact the revenge on the unpardonable insult of Water Chenlar King, the Sailendra King sent in his naval troops to invade the Water Chenla. The Water Chenlar king was captured and beheaded. The Sailendra Court also took prince Jayavarman II as its hostage. Water Chenlar was under the control of Java for 10 long years, until Jayavarman II shook it off. After Water Chenlar became independent from the Javanese, Jayavarman II unifed Water Chenla with Land Chenla and blessed it with a new name of Kambuja or Kampuchea in the present.

It is possible that everyone in SEA influenced each other in cultural and languages in the ancient time, thus creating their own style of arts. This things happened long ago where there is no modern political border like today.
sonofgunongjerai
If some of you are really fond of Hindu culture in SEA, then you should trace the root of the culture and arts back whether they are similar or modified form of Hindus culture with the local one, which is from India. I do not know if Indonesians are familiar with Indian Hindus culture, but we in Malaysia are aware of them. Most of the arts and modified arts in SEA traced their origin from South India. Some of them had been spreaded in SEA by South Indian Brahmins, probably of Pancha-Dravidian Tamil clans.

Here is the link of Wayang Hindu almost resembling Wayang Wong of Java Land and Lakohn in Thailand, Myanmar and Cambodia, Kathakali of Kerala, actors are usually men. Mostly from Mahabharata, Ramayan, and Bhagavat Puranas.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CMquphTYM3w

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uiHbEPVlSA0&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fLTQZNE6JOA&feature=related

Bharata Natyam, of Tamil Nadu, a kind of dancing with mudras (gestures) to indicate feelings, stories, etc. Performed in temple by Devadasis (the god maidens)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=prQOdTmF8u0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TTJ2Fud8nks&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_DOWaiog8Xo&feature=related

I sit my STPM (MY Higher Cert Exm) paper in a private secondary school, the school is behind Shri Maha Mariamman Temple in KL, I even found Malaysian Malays who speaks Tamil fluently. We have contacts with Indians even until today.

Nang Thalung or Shadow Play in Suratthani, the Thai used in the play is almost identical to Thai used in Kedah. Video is short and sound quality isn't so good.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jx927yunhOE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvST4Q6I_W4&NR=1

Wayang Gelek Kelantan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVN-Df2Hatc...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_2ENR53mgw...feature=related

Wayang Kulit in Kedah and Perlis with instrumentals

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rR9pQBk-Npw

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pS8LA1QbHsc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIhtEhMNVno...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl1fFvOAuP0...feature=related

Thai puppet play, Lakon Lek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-fnUVNCGTQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1je007Xe9o...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty-hXrUMhrg...feature=related

This one is Likey or Jikey (Zikir), originated from Langkawi in Kedah and Perlis played by Muslims before being popularized in Thailand. It is not popular in Malaysia side although it was originated here, while it is popular in Southern Thai Satun and Songkhla part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2dHqjIMuNY...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKs9vRkWnXk...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VKvWwilkGo...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8qVbVPa8sA...feature=related

Candle dance in Thailand

http://youtube.com/watch?v=u-ZFX50_D0Y

Fingernail dance in Thailand, also popular in north Malaysia once upon a time, northern Malays call it tarian Changgaiy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9mFtlID0nAw&feature=related

Ram Lopburi of Thailand

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PrSR2uekGbo&feature=related

This one looks like tarian silang kaki Iban, in Thailand

http://youtube.com/watch?v=05yaBCFtWsg

Romwong Apsaras of Cambodia

http://youtube.com/watch?v=THzGUDs6zCk&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xiS5LIviOrU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UUeapoAgelw&feature=related

Soban Matcha (Mermaid and Hanuman) of Cambodia

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eCinXsCJzTU&feature=related

Singhalese Sigiri Apsaras

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1mXzJ_2nN3M&feature=related

Those are some arts and traditional dances of SEA mainland in comparison with Indian Hindus arts

dipati
mahatir, r u a gud muslim, if u r than stop this nonsense, mati mau ingat-dlm kubur ngan di tanya kamu tuhan sama wayang kulit, peduli apa rauis yatim bilang...........
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