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tangawizi
Why would anyone rescue Singapore?


In an interview with the International Herald Tribune (IHT), published on 29 August 2007, was this exchange between Lee Kuan Yew and the newspaper.

Lee Kuan Yew: So, can we survive? The question is still unanswered. We have survived so far, 42 years. Will we survive for another 42? It depends upon world conditions. It doesn't depend on us alone. If there were no international law and order, and big fish eat small fish and small fish eat shrimps, we wouldn't exist. Our armed forces can withstand an attack and inflict damage for two weeks, three weeks, but a siege? (laughs)

IHT: Not possible.

Lee Kuan Yew: Control of sea lanes? We'll just starve. So, it depends on whether there is an international environment which says that borders are sacrosanct and there is the rule of law. It's not just [a matter for the] United Nations Security Council. There's the U.S. Seventh Fleet, a Japanese interest in the Straits of Malacca, and later Chinese and Indian interests in the region, and therefore a balance.

This is a scenario that has not been much discussed, for obvious reasons, I'm sure. While military strategists have to war game this regularly, it doesn't serve much purpose to dwell on such vulnerability in the public sphere. To do so would only leave everyone, investors included, feeling more insecure than warranted.

Not being a defence expert myself, I can't much comment on whether Lee is being too alarmist, so for now, I can only take him at his word – that Singapore's forces can hold out for 2 – 3 weeks. After that, we'd have to hope for rescue.

The nearest equivalent in recent history was the liberation of Kuwait in the first quarter of 1991 by a coalition of 30 nations led by the United States, after Iraq had seized it in August 1990. Perhaps Lee was thinking along similar lines when he spoke about the US Seventh Fleet, etc.

What I found inadequate about Lee's analysis was his glossing over the "rule of law" and "borders are sacrosanct" conditions. If such conditions exist, he was saying, Singapore will be able to sleep easy.

Frankly, I am doubtful if we can assume that such conditions exist, even today. Israel hasn't really been held to account over its actions vis-a-vis the West Bank. Eritrea won a World Court case against Ethiopia over border demarcation, but Ethiopia, currently useful to the US, has refused to withdraw from the zone that the Court said belonged to its smaller neighbour. Morocco is still encamped in the Western Sahara, its occupation contested. Russia is still occupying parts of Moldavia and Georgia.

One should not think the USA would come to the aid of any small country just for the sake of the rule of law. Like all nations, it acts either in its self-interest, or as an expression of its ideals.

In the case of Kuwait, it was clearly for self-interest.

On 2 August 1990, Saddam Hussein sent his forces into tiny Kuwait and annexed it as Iraq's 19th province. Kuwait offered no resistance; 300,000 of its 2 million people fled at once to Saudi Arabia. In a single stroke, not only did Iraq control Kuwait's oil (in addition to its own), its forces were poised within striking distance of Saudi Arabia's rich oilfields.

Iraq in 1990, despite having fought a bitter 8-year war with Iran, still had the strongest forces of all the countries in the Persian Gulf region. Saddam Hussein had a few hundred thousand men in his army, 4,000 tanks and a number of Scud missiles. His air force counted some 700 aircraft, though at various levels of serviceability.

Saudi forces would not be able to stop an Iraqi incursion. Worse, the secular Ba'athist ideology of Saddam, if seen as victorious, would quickly gain appeal among the people of the Arabian peninsula, including Bahrain and beyond, destabilising the ultra-conservative monarchies in the region, the US' allies.

Washington could see that the oil lifeline to itself, Europe and Japan was being threatened, and its credibility as a superpower at stake. It organised a 30-nation coalition which included Muslim countries Pakistan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh, liberating the tiny emirate ("Operation Desert Storm") in February 1991.


Wrecked vehicles line Highway 80, the route fleeing Iraqis
took as they retreated from Kuwait in the Desert Storm war.
Picture by Tech Sgt Joe Coleman, from the National Geographic


Would self-interest lead the US to rescue Singapore? It is difficult to speculate -- much must depend on why such a future crisis erupted in the first place -- but most certainly, without oil, self-interest is nowhere as obvious as in the case of Kuwait's fall.

Yet there are other examples of the US standing by its friends. Why does America back Israel so strongly? Or Taiwan, for that matter? My reading is that in the case of Israel, it's mostly a question of popular sentiment. No American government will be allowed by its people to abandon Israel. (Sometimes, this unquestioning support has allowed the Israelis to be too aggressive towards the Palestinians, but that is a separate debate.)

In the case of Taiwan, I think it's more complex. Sticking by the island has more to do with reassuring Japan than any love for the Taiwanese, but it also appeals to the American sense of political morality -- to stand up for a democratic country if it is threatened by a totalitarian one.

I understand from news magazines I have read, albeit many years ago, that this was one of the reasons why President Chiang Ching-kuo of Taiwan ended martial law and democratised the island in the 1980s. He foresaw a rising China and wanted the make sure that Americans viewed Taiwan in a better light and be more prepared to come to its aid.

This is where another part of Lee's interview with IHT comes in. Speaking about why Singapore chose the open-economy route to success, even when most other countries chose self-sufficiency and nationalism,

Lee Kuan Yew: The answer lies in our genesis. To survive, we have to do these things. And although what you see today - the superstructure of a modern city, the base is a very narrow one and could easily disintegrate. We are not Venice. We are not Athens with wide open spaces and far away neighbors. We are part of a world which is globalized, cheek by jowl with teeming millions in the region, populating at fast speed (laughs), right?

IHT: Control of many things including information and openness is the area in which Singapore is most often criticized.

Lee Kuan Yew: Well, we are pragmatists. If, in order to survive, we have to open up a sector, we open it up. Because the best test - the yardstick is, is this necessary for survival and progress? If it is, let's do it.

Along the same lines, I will proffer this thought: that if we want to maximise our chances of the US and other countries coming to our aid, we must offer them a moral reason to do so. If we are a liberal democratic country, we'd have more appeal, we'd be seen to be more worth saving than if we are seen as a dynastic fief. Why should other countries expend blood and treasure to save an authoritarian regime?

In short, our national security interest requires us to open up politically.
Henry123
I dont think anyone is going to attack Simgapore. At least I hope not!
Bhaskara
Imagine the damage taken by the nation-state if it were really happening! eek.gif Sure, maybe there would be an intervention, but it would be too late by then. The attackers would withdraw after it has destroyed Singapore, the way Iraq destroyed Quwait's oil refineries, but with much more destruction involved, devastating economy and infrastructures.....
mndeg
so what. if anyone of financial importance to attack anyone else with financial importance the markets would collapse and singapore would fail to have a purpose considering the world economy is destroyed
Henry123
Singapore are one of the world's trading partners. Theres nothing to gain from attacking Singapore. Economically it would hurt the world economy instead. We need more social order than chaos.

Look at places in the third world like some African countries. Theres absolutely no social order and people are killing each other like animals. That is something that we should all avoid.
the_falcon
it depends on the future if people get angry that u r trying to close doors .......... because u want to put down the competition ..... then they might attack .........

unless big brother china is involved i dont see much success for singapore in terms of defence ....... it will be devastated within 2 or 3 days max.

arent u guys involved in air defence exercises with israel ?? ........
PB.
falcon, why do you sit there, hit space, then hit ............... then continue to type?
Bhaskara
Henry123: You act like a lawyer trying to defend Singapore's case, you try too hard buddy, nobody's needed to be ensured of Singapore's role, especially with vulgar and shallow act of belittling African countries. It's just a "what if", relax a bit will ya. icon_wink.gif
Betong
Oh my God icon_neutral.gif
Which country want to attack Singapore !!! Why so sudden that LKY talking about war. confused.gif I always believe that Singapore was good country and everybody love them kiss.gif
retardsrox
QUOTE(Henry123 @ Oct 1 2007, 05:50 PM) [snapback]3242275[/snapback]
I dont think anyone is going to attack Simgapore. At least I hope not!


omg. that is the biggest misconception you've got there. Singapore is in a strategic location (geographically).... you get what i mean right?
tangawizi
So guys, do you like my motto for countries :


TRADE WITH EITHER, WAR WITH NEITHER


I think that's what SG wants to do with everyone on the planet. We just wanna trade with you, not war with you.
erla
No, not the case for Thailand. Singapore wants Thailand to suffer as much economically as possible.
Ringo
If Singapore got attacked the USA and Britain will be Singapore allied...Singapore have thousands of Gurkha's army there. So dont worry lol
fadlee
it wont even last in secs.. i presume as several bombs being dropped in singapore then everything wud be turned to ashes lolll *no hard feelings ya :P
Bhaskara
What's up with Thailand and Singapore?
tangawizi
Singapore Inc got a bloody nose from purchase of Thaksin company, but Thais in the streets think it's a set-up... shrug.gif
Pogpog
Hi i'm not singaporean but I would like to ask a question regarding this. Who would likely attack and invade singapore and what will the attacking country get from it or for what reason would it be?
Red Fox Ace
QUOTE(Pogpog @ Oct 4 2007, 11:45 AM) [snapback]3247867[/snapback]
Hi i'm not singaporean but I would like to ask a question regarding this. Who would likely attack and invade singapore and what will the attacking country get from it or for what reason would it be?

Most likely country would seem to be Malaysia.
SnoSlick56
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Oct 4 2007, 01:21 PM) [snapback]3247952[/snapback]
Most likely country would seem to be Malaysia.

Singapore can easily mobilize a 300,000 armed forces, who is best trained, most able, best equiped. Their air force ranked #1 in Asia.

Malaysia will be beaten badly if they invade Singapore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Armed_Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Army
Henry123
QUOTE(Bhaskara @ Oct 2 2007, 09:18 PM) [snapback]3244689[/snapback]
Henry123: You act like a lawyer trying to defend Singapore's case, you try too hard buddy, nobody's needed to be ensured of Singapore's role, especially with vulgar and shallow act of belittling African countries. It's just a "what if", relax a bit will ya. icon_wink.gif


I guess I came off abit uptight.

icon_wink.gif
kown_chma
Everybody in south east asia will scramble to help Singapore.

Why?

Cause you hold all the juntas, dictators and all sort of money that come from god knows where. They want to protect their money biggrin.gif
GluTTony
QUOTE(SnoSlick56 @ Oct 5 2007, 04:41 AM) [snapback]3248122[/snapback]
Singapore can easily mobilize a 300,000 armed forces, who is best trained, most able, best equiped. Their air force ranked #1 in Asia.

Malaysia will be beaten badly if they invade Singapore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Armed_Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Army



umm did you read the Article and what LKY said...
wadthehell2
QUOTE(GluTTony @ Oct 5 2007, 12:50 PM) [snapback]3249803[/snapback]
umm did you read the Article and what LKY said...


kuwait and singapore are different. kuwait does not have a military. singapore has 350,000 ppl in the military and the highest defence budget in the region.
kown_chma
QUOTE(SnoSlick56 @ Oct 4 2007, 03:41 PM) [snapback]3248122[/snapback]
Singapore can easily mobilize a 300,000 armed forces, who is best trained, most able, best equiped. Their air force ranked #1 in Asia.

Malaysia will be beaten badly if they invade Singapore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Armed_Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Army



Congratulation you've just won the stupidest POST of the day.
SnoSlick56
QUOTE(GluTTony @ Oct 5 2007, 12:50 PM) [snapback]3249803[/snapback]
umm did you read the Article and what LKY said...

I did actually.

Like it always be, Singapore kept his miltary power in very low profile. You can especially feel it in that articlee. And his purpose is subtlly indicated. Lee is an extremely calculating individual.

Keeping in the low profile is the survivor's instinct.

In the case Malaysia attacking it, Singapore can actually counter attack with a deadly blow, and will be able to secure a large buffer zone in the land.

Of course, if the attack can be defused by interfare from the outside, it'll be the cheapest way.
drakuli
i cant resist not to have my comment here biggrin.gif

well, from military point of view, attacking singapore, in term of inflicting heavy casualties and damage to destroy SG military is a possible thing, and not too hard. invading SG maybe a different story though. I agree that SG has the most military budget in the region, but IMO with the tiny size it is pretty hard to be defended.

And the number of 350k soldiers is the number of total mobilization enlistment, not the regular army, which mean all men who ever joined NS (altho they are not regular army). so i don't believe SG has enough qualified soldiers.

even katyusha rockets stationed in Batam or JB can reach all target in SG, not to mention some more advanced rockets / artillery. thanks God that SG has quiet a lot of F16s and formidable class ships. however, even with less advance weaponry, Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia can inflict heavy damage to SG.

but i hope there won't be any war lah... just like erasmus said "war is tempting to those who have had no experience about it" (cmiiw).
tangawizi
Don't u get the message the article is giving out? That maybe SG needs to show they are more democratic before their elites talk about Rule of Law and Sovereignty rights? Why would any country wanna shed blood and treasure to come rescue SG if it's another authoritarian regime?

That said, I juz think that the elites in SG are hardcore realists, they know being a democratic country does $hit for them. The Kuwaitis paid treasure to the US to save their asses from Saddam Hussein's armies. The SGs will have to pay treasure for anyone who'll deign to come rescue that island rock.
destoyasoy
It will become a bubur country less than 2 days laugh.gif
SnoSlick56
QUOTE(drakuli @ Oct 7 2007, 09:46 AM) [snapback]3253548[/snapback]
i cant resist not to have my comment here biggrin.gif

well, from military point of view, attacking singapore, in term of inflicting heavy casualties and damage to destroy SG military is a possible thing, and not too hard. invading SG maybe a different story though. I agree that SG has the most military budget in the region, but IMO with the tiny size it is pretty hard to be defended.

And the number of 350k soldiers is the number of total mobilization enlistment, not the regular army, which mean all men who ever joined NS (altho they are not regular army). so i don't believe SG has enough qualified soldiers.

even katyusha rockets stationed in Batam or JB can reach all target in SG, not to mention some more advanced rockets / artillery. thanks God that SG has quiet a lot of F16s and formidable class ships. however, even with less advance weaponry, Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia can inflict heavy damage to SG.

but i hope there won't be any war lah... just like erasmus said "war is tempting to those who have had no experience about it" (cmiiw).

The press statement says that the mission of SAF is to defer the war. However it's been well known that SAF has adopted Israel Defense's tactic - Forward defense. That is, swiftly, completely destroy enemy's strategic military sites, before they can launch a real attack. The battle ground will be in enemy's territory.

So Singapore will not wait till someone to bomb them.

That requaires the most effective air force, army, and intelligence obtaining and long term planning.

Singapore has the best air force, quality wise. Their infantry is not for the city battle.


ricochet
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Oct 9 2007, 12:51 AM) [snapback]3256095[/snapback]
Don't u get the message the article is giving out? That maybe SG needs to show they are more democratic before their elites talk about Rule of Law and Sovereignty rights? Why would any country wanna shed blood and treasure to come rescue SG if it's another authoritarian regime?

That said, I juz think that the elites in SG are hardcore realists, they know being a democratic country does $hit for them. The Kuwaitis paid treasure to the US to save their asses from Saddam Hussein's armies. The SGs will have to pay treasure for anyone who'll deign to come rescue that island rock.


wat else...run lor...afterall...I had one leg in malaysia remember embarassedlaugh.gif
Betong
I don't think that any country will want to invaded Singapore. Not Malaysia at least. Our economy will hurt definately by going war with Singapore and it better mking money than going to war with each other.
Crystallised Dream
QUOTE(Betong @ Oct 16 2007, 01:42 PM) [snapback]3269435[/snapback]
I don't think that any country will want to invaded Singapore. Not Malaysia at least. Our economy will hurt definately by going war with Singapore and it better mking money than going to war with each other.


Point taken.
Red Fox Ace
QUOTE(Betong @ Oct 16 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]3269435[/snapback]
I don't think that any country will want to invaded Singapore. Not Malaysia at least. Our economy will hurt definately by going war with Singapore and it better mking money than going to war with each other.

Economics all count for nothing when shooting starts, history is full of trading partners going to war against each other.
AEROFORCE1
Is it possible for Spore to become the terrorist target. I think it sound more freaky if Spore is attack by the Chemical weapon. I still remember about the case about the Religious group launch the in Japan attack the underground train by Chemical gas.
Betong
^Maybe Singapore should be aware of that especially what they drink...
DandyBo
QUOTE(AEROFORCE1 @ Oct 17 2007, 11:41 AM) [snapback]3271037[/snapback]
Is it possible for Spore to become the terrorist target. I think it sound more freaky if Spore is attack by the Chemical weapon. I still remember about the case about the Religious group launch the in Japan attack the underground train by Chemical gas.



I think Singapore stands a higher chance when in a chemical attack as compared to an atomic bomb or something along that line. Reason being so is that Singapore is byfar one of the very few countries in Asia that carries out excercise in case of a chemical warfare.

That aside, the only reason why a country would want to conquer Singapore is probably because of it's strategic location as a seaport. Then again, bombing the country would be the dumbest thing to do coz all of its world class infrastructure will be severly damaged. Speaking of which, the country that has the highest probability of declaring war with Singapore would be its closest neighbour, Malaysia because they would want their port, Port Tanjung Pelepas to flourish. Then again, Malaysia has lure Singapore entrepreneurs to set foot on its newest development, Iskandar Development Region, and in order for IDR to prosper, it has to tap on Singapore's expertise to overachieve. In conclusion, no country would want to declare war with Singapore for they have no benefits whatsoever in doing so.

Having said that, please don't judge my words as they are just casual rants that I would like to share. Seriously, I've no idea why I'm writing this. And like everyone else, spread the message of WORLD PEACE.
drakuli
QUOTE(SnoSlick56 @ Oct 9 2007, 07:30 AM) [snapback]3256833[/snapback]
The press statement says that the mission of SAF is to defer the war. However it's been well known that SAF has adopted Israel Defense's tactic - Forward defense. That is, swiftly, completely destroy enemy's strategic military sites, before they can launch a real attack. The battle ground will be in enemy's territory.

So Singapore will not wait till someone to bomb them.

That requaires the most effective air force, army, and intelligence obtaining and long term planning.

Singapore has the best air force, quality wise. Their infantry is not for the city battle.


Too bad, even with such tactic every year Israel always get mortars and bombs from Hezbollah icon_neutral.gif
drakuli
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Oct 16 2007, 09:53 PM) [snapback]3269955[/snapback]
Economics all count for nothing when shooting starts, history is full of trading partners going to war against each other.


well, most wars are caused by economy.
singapak2
i should go Johor or Batam/Tanjong Pinang/Bintan often.. so it is less likely to be killed.
Aardvark
Don't think too much...nobody will attack. You got lots of friends....I dont think you have any enemies unless superpower wants to control the region.
Armageddon
Alrite...this is d summary :-

~d public wil fly to somwhr mo safer....also those ministry
~d oly remainin pupil r those army who protect d country....


helloworld
Singapore is just a chinese satellite state in Southeast Asia. You're abandon by your motherland. hahaha
Protoculture
MY invaded SG? Unlikely ...

SG invaded MY (southern part)? A distinct possibility ... given SG's forward defence policy.

War between two countries? Unlikely, not in a hundred years ... unless, it involved water issue.
tangawizi
ok, this guy from msia made a good point that there is no need for any war between msia and sg. all msia needs to do is send in 5 million of their people as refugees and flood the island state, and we wd have no room for there to crap, let alone be able to recycle newater for everybody...hehe embarassedlaugh.gif
Protoculture
QUOTE
all msia needs to do is send in 5 million of their people as refugees and flood the island state, and we wd have no room for there to crap, let alone be able to recycle newater for everybody...hehe


Actually, what MY needs to do is wait patiently for decades to come as the global Green House effects seriously taking place, with the rising sea levels finally overwhelm SG land mass (though, the Muar district in Johore is also a goner) & SGporeans become migrating boat people in the region.

Let nature do its course. No need to send armies to conquer SG.
tangawizi
oh my, didn't u hear? LKY is already inviting Dutch engineers to come and build dykes all over the island state!
royfang
If even Lee Kuan Yew think Singapore will not last 2-3 weeks under attack then why are we, guys bloody serving NS?
the_falcon
how the hell did lee come up with this figure of 2-3 weeks ......... its more like 1 week ............... icon_neutral.gif

ur airforce cannot even spread its wings because singapore is so small ........... its just gonna keep on flying in circles to try and protect the city ........ on top of that if one of them gets shot down its gonna crash on the skyscrapers ....... even if u manage to push enemy aircraft towards the ocean and away from the city ur still gonna have a hard time ........ if one aircraft manages to get past its gonna rain HELL on singaporean people ......... icon_twisted.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOZgQZ7vevA

icon_twisted.gif icon_twisted.gif icon_twisted.gif
royfang
QUOTE(helloworld @ Nov 1 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]3294150[/snapback]
Singapore is just a chinese satellite state in Southeast Asia. You're abandon by your motherland. hahaha


And you, my friend, is an idiot from the Moon (lol!Although I'm guessing China.)
Kestrel
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