Why does Japan need all this when she is protected by USA's nuclear umbrella ?

Japan should just develop their own technology and do whatever the hell they want and ignore the U.S if she gets uppity as usual.

What makes you sure japan won't go ballistic and throw a tantrum on asia and cause it trouble again. Until they get it through their thick, hard heads and learn some natural social understanding of related neighbors(can't preserve their japanese culture without asia in the long run) then they aren't too trustworthy. I don't know the how pro-american or pro-white it is in japan right now.

Japan should do what they want.

So North Korea should also do whatever she wants

Sure, go nuts.

Even the most far-right Japanese politicians know that if they attacked Asia again they'd get invaded and nuked, and then get swarmed by subhuman sex tourists from America.

Ehh.. I'd have to think the Japanese Military would not get enough support from her people to even 'start' a War. On the other hand, if they were attacked and had to defend themselves..

Would you prefer to have nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles being lobbed all over the place instead of a more conventional warfare?

why not ?

I'm the one who's asking the question. Would you like to provide a proper reason, or do you just have nothing to say but "why not?"

Japan’s ATD-X Stealth Fighter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVZjfmjtIlc


http://aviationweek.typepad.com/ares/2007/...bishi_stea.html

Looks like a combination of different fighter designs.

F-15 for long snout. (Ability to mount large RADARs.)
Su-27 for canopy. (Wide range of pilot vision.)
F-22 for intakes, overall airframe and tailplanes. (For better overall maneuverability)
F-35 for wings. (For balance between stability, transonic and supersonic performance and maneuverability.)
F-18 for the V-tails. (For better overall maneuverability. F-22 also has the V-tail, but the ATD-X's ones resemble F-18's more due to their narrower spacing.)

3D TVC also looks interesting, although they might want to cover the thing up like the F-22's unless they want the plane to be lit up like a Christmas tree, defeating the purpose of the plane's overall stealth characteristics.

I would've liked if they showed the belly of the plane and find out about roughly what the aircraft's payload is, but they didn't, so I can't even properly guess what and how many weapons it will carry, although the airframe looks spacious enough for 2 AAM-3s and 4 AAM-4s, roughly equivalent to F-22's payload. If it's going to be mounted with a gun, it will probably be mounted at one of the wing roots like the Raptor with a bay door covering it.

When did nippono developed their own adv jet fighter?

I read that these fighters (F-3?) are almost twice as expensive as a F-22

Mitsubishi F3


ATD-X

Maybe it will cost a 2billion dollars a piece. lol.

Do you really want everything to be an all-or-nothing situation? Japan needs stealth jets for conventional warfare. A nuclear umbrella is useless in conventional warfare, unless you insist on using nukes with severe consequences. Japan's F-4s and F-15s are aging rapidly; they need to be replaced before 2015 with a true air superiority jet.

True, this is probably Japan's way of twisting the US government's arm for a weapons sale. It is doubtful that Japan would actually build its own jet; more likely, Tokyo is putting pressure on Lockheed Martin and Co. to in turn lobby Congress, otherwise they would lose a potential $20-30 billion killer sale for the Raptor. Lockheed desperately wants to sell the Raptor to Japan.

Could be, depending on how many Japan builds, how capable they are, and how steep the developmental cost is.



You wish. More likely, I'd predict 250-300 million US dollars.

yeap, agreed

if she can

I think America should leave both Japan and the DPRK alone and let them build up their own militaries.

The US should stop coddling Japan and allow the samurai within to unsheath it's sword once again while at the same time allowing the Democratic People's Republic of Korea to build up their nuclear program and it's military.

Japan's military has enormous upside if the nation is willing to spend more (right now Japan's defense spending is a tiny 1% of GDP.) For comparison, the USA's defense is 3.7% of GDP, and Taiwan's is 2.8%.

Even if Japan merely increased it to 1.5% of GDP, that would still be nearly $200 billion extra over the course of eight years. That is sufficient funding not only to fund the hypothetical F-22 purchase fully, but also enough to double the JMSDF's SSKs, fund an SSN program, maybe aircraft carriers, not to mention extending the JASDF with replacement AWACS, tankers, and fund all domestic military programs.

Scale model version of ATD-X is set to fly with domestically developed engine in 5 years. This is FAR from a fighter design. At least a decade's worth of development and potentially (looking at past history of Japanese arms development) billions will be needed before it could be called that.

A Raptor cost $138-$200 million per plane, depending on how you do the accounting. Eastern_Knight might actually be right...

The Mitsubishi F2, based on the F-16, and jointly built 60/40 by Mitsubishi, Lockheed Martin and other Japanese and US companies, already cost a whopping $108 million, in 2004.

Source/Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2

The F-16 Fighting Falcon on which it is based costed only $25 million in 1998. That's about a four-fold increase. And I doubt it's that much better, if at all. The F-15 Eagle is the best American fighter prior to the F-22. The Su-35 is slightly better than the F-15, about slightly 3 times better than an F-16; the Eurofighter Typhoon is about 4.5 times better than an Su-35. The Typhoon cost substantially less than the Mitsubishi F-2 and could probably get a kill ratio of 10:1 against it, if not 15:1.

-------------------------
A lot of people here who are saying Japan should do what she wants are missing the point...

The F-22's avionics are extremely advanced. That's why the US isn't gonna sell it to anyone, even though the stealthy F-35 is a joint project fetween the US and practically all of its close allies. The F-22's geometry pretty much can be copied simply by looking at photos of it. The radar asborbing paint is obviously also classified technology, but that's not why the US won't sell F-22, even to its allies.

My guess is that it would take Japan (and Russia) 15-20 years to develop something equivalent, assuming they spend billions of dollars pour an intense amount of energy into it. That's how long it took the US, who's had stealth technology for 40-45 years. By that time, the US will have developed even more advance technology. The SR-71 Blackbird was somewhat stealthy.

It's easier just to buy a bunch of F-22's, tear one apart, and copy it, than to take 15-20 years and build something which by then will be a generation behind what the US has cooked up next.



I'd agree the canopy slightly resembles the Flanker's more, but the Raptor's canopy is also raised and enables excellent manual visibility too.

Japan's Fighter programme:-

F1:- F-15J (Based on F-15B/D)
F2:- F-16J (based on block32/52 F-16C/D)
F3:- F-X (based on combination of adv der F-16/15 & F-22, & Su-27/35)

It looks like F-3 programme will be F-15E based with added features.

But in terms of price & costing, Japanese made r far more expansive than US or other allies.

JASDF Canceled Aircraft


Mitsubishi XT-4 (Trainer)





Mitsubishi FI-X









Mitsubishi FS-X

That's a nice design, looks a bit like the F-15 Eagle or the Su-32 put together, but still a nice new and sleek design.

The same reason Europe and Australian needs it dip$hit. Why do you have to have a problem with Japan building up a defence in a region with probably the most turmoil, though it remains in non-violent stasis. If the Europeans can make state of the art weapons for themselves and for other nations who'd be willing to buy them, then why can't the Japanese?

The same reason Europe and Australian needs it dip$hit. Why do you have to have a problem with Japan building up a defence in a region with probably the most turmoil, though it remains in non-violent stasis. If the Europeans can make state of the art weapons for themselves and for other nations who'd be willing to buy them, then why can't the Japanese? Honestly, some of Japan's inability to expand militarily is apart of the old 50's racist treatment of Japan in terms of foreign relations. Even Germany managed to get a full-fledged military. And, they don't suffer from nearly as much bull$hit from the US government as Japan does.


Because, Japan is different now. First off, Japan isn't robust enough to do so. They have a good economy, but as any person who pays attention can see, it isn't able to go on another imperialistic expansion again. Also, Japan's neighbors have nuclear weapons, so they can't really support an offensive war. They could only use their technology for defensive combat and joint-strike campaigns.

Also, Japan's culture can only be preserved by seperating itself from Asia. Japanese culture doesn't equate to Chinese or Korean culture. It's distinct from their cultures, just as they have distinct cultures of their own. How many white Americans are pro-Europe? Even some of the white-supremacists of this country don't really like Europe or Canada in spite of them having a higher white-ratio and white homogeniety.

American culture doesn't need Europe to have their own culture, even with those of European heritage. That's the attitude that it's taken for the past two-hundred years, is part of the reason for hatred from Europeans. Similarly to how Japan pisses Asians off. Even Jewish-Americans aren't so pro-Zionist.

How many Jews actually support Isreal or the war in Iraq? Most of them vote Democrate, partly because zealous Christianity scares them, but mostly because the majority of them are secular, atheitsts of Jewish heritage, or liberal Jews who no longer wait for the Messiah - as liberal Judaism now see Messiah as being a metaphor or something.

The same applies to all nations. Korea doesn't need China to keep their "Asian" roots. The same goes with all nations including China. They're sovereign nations, so they can keep whatever culture they want, provided that logically this culture is conducive for an industrialized nation and is the right thing to do logically and ethically.


It's much easier to get support for a defensive war than an offensive one. Americans were really reluctant to join WW2 to assist other countries. However, after they were attacked by the Japanese, American males within the fighting age range become adamant about joining the military in war. Similarly, Bush managed to gain wide-support for Afghanistan because of the attack on September 11. Honestly, when I was in highschool, I thought about joining the military after that attack.

The war in Iraq had some opposition, as there wasn't a clear, legitimate reason to invade Iraq. The Bush administration went on false-pretenses of a pre-emptive strike against WMD holders, who according to the tapes of Al Queada terrorists on the news, and intelligence reports by Ahmed Chalabi, Saddam Hussein was going to use them alongside Al Queada against the USA.


True. They need to keep up with Europe and Australia. Like who has it out for Australia anyways? It's way too far for anyone to invade, that's why the British dumped their exiles there, because it was too far for anyone to get to.


Well, it's a corporation, so it wants to sell as much as it can. I don't think it's a bad idea, since Japan needs it and the money gained by Lockheed Martin could be used for further development. The only thing that the US might worry about, is how well can Japan suppress that kind of technology from leaking into foreign nations. That's what really scares the US government, it's not that Japan might use it on them, it's that Japan might not do a good job of keeping the technology secret. The last thing anyone wants if for China and North Korea to get versions of their own Raptors, and maybe Iran as well.

At least by Japan devloping the technology to do it, they'll at least be able to tell the world that they have the military technology to protect themselves and to assist in UN and US-coalition peace-keeping operations.


That'd be a bad idea. European nations such as Italy, Germany, France, Sweden, and the UK develop their own military technology while under US military protection and under the US nuclear umbrella, with the exception of the other members of the UN Security Council. The US can't leave South Korea alone because that would leave SK vulnerable and the US and the rest of the Free and Western nations have too much at stake in South Korea. Also, it'd hurt the US's PR because they'd be criticized for not taking care of the South Koreans as well as looking weak to the USA's enemies.
Also, South Korea isn't allowed to build nukes if they signed the NPT. Most nations who've signed that treaty abide by it, well at least that we know of. I know Iran still a problem. If they do get nuclear weapons, the Isrealites will really feel the pressure to break the treaty and develope the weapons themselves. Some conspiracy theorists think they already do, but I doubt it as it's kind of hard to hide nuclear development, when testing the weapon to see if it works requires a mushroom cloud that can be seen in space! (Unless they're fireworks, lol, North Korea).

As for Japan, they can develop their samurai instinct, but then they'd return to a feudal hierarchy where nobility are the only ones who do the fighting and governing, and peasants just sit on their farms. In all honesty, Japanese are no more samurais than Europeans are knights and lords, since in both nations commoners weren't allowed to become the military aristocracy.

isreal does have nuclear weapons.



they tested underground

I think it is important Japan builds on its military capability, it is important for the stability of the region.

I have no worries that Japan will become militaristic, that is as likely as germany becoming militaristic again i.e. non existant.

Japan should be allowed to build up their military instead of having to rely on the US and Europeans all the time for their weaponry for their token defense force.

Even if Japanese built up their military to WWII levels and decide to invade mainland Asia, they could hit a bump with the well trained North Korean military and loose to the PLA.

When are the japanese going to build their Gundams?

Oh yeah? Says who?


German government officials are not paying annual visits to a shrine erected in honor of Hitler and his henchmen. The Germans have thoroughly repudiated themselves for their past atrocities and Holocaust denial is a capital offense.

The Japanese on the other hand... you get the picture.

^ That's not nearly enough to really warrant any caution in my opinion.

They should be allowed to, they make good stuff.

That's like saying Iran should be allowed to make bomb that could blow away whole China, just because they can make it really good >_>

And Iran should be allowed to make their bombs...and it's highly doubtful they'd use them on China. China and Iran are in pretty good terms with each other.

No, that would create nuclear fck-out war within middle east, Iran VS Israel. I don't think Israel will let Iran to have nuke in their hands. Iran will allow to have any weapons when they have non Islamic fundamentalist running their admin.

Btw, Japan advanced fighter program is known to failure and will take some time, and this is why Japan is asking F-22 from US. It not that Japan lack technology but rather experience and skills dealing with advanced jet fighters.

Just make a Gundam already >_>

And what makes Israel any better? It's bascially a US colony known for abusing non-Jews, Muslim and Christian Palestinians and the land that is now Israel was taken by Palestinian and Arab people. Iran on the other hand acts completely independently and the non-Muslims in Iran, the Christians and Zoroastrians are treated pretty well. Iran isn't as fundamentally Islamic as popular media makes it out to be.

there are very few zoroastrians in iran............sad really

i hear that a lot. then how come men can be imprisoned or even killed for talking to a woman on the street? instead of barbie dolls kids play with dolls which are totally covered and the ken equivalent is the cousin. lol.

this is just the harmless stuff.

not having any persecution on other religions is not a indication of the regime not being fundamentalist, if I can beg to differ.

dude, just talk to iranians and they will tell you how it is.

the only thing popular media is guilty of is not showing the good sides of iran. but they are pretty spot on about the bad things.

They already do, don't they? It's just like the same reason college students go to Europe (besides the pot). The only difference between Japan and the other Eastern Asian nations is that they're economically rich so it's not easy for someone to mail-order a bride from there or anything.


PS. Of course, when I say "Europe" I mean "Old Europe" and not Eastern Europe/Eurasia where mail-order brides do come from.
Agreed!

Will this new fighter jet be able to defend its citizens from crazy hentai loving nerds with giant hunting knifes?

Sorry buddy....you are really stupid if you are using Germany as a measuring stick for bad mouthing Japan. I live in Germany, and I can tell you that the German government and people seriously do not give a rat's @$$ about any guilt for WWII. The fact of the matter is that th Holocaust and World War II are completely separate matters. Germans conveniently say "Oh, the Holocaust was so bad...however, it's good that it was only the Nazis who were responsible, not us Germans." In other words, they consider the Nazis as separate from regular German people. That's a very convenient way to avoid responsibility but yet still put on a good image to other people.

People here in Germany worship their great glorious Wehrmacht warriors like Jodl, Rommel, Goerring (Head of the Luftwaffe) and truly believe that Germany's soldiers fought a valiant and glorious noble war against the "evil opressive Allied greedy powers" whose main objective was to destroy German ideals and pride and replace it with Jewish Bolshevist regime. Mark my words, Germans are not sorry for jack$hit. They have not issued a single apology to Poland, Norway, France, England, the Czech Republic, or Russia...countries in which their soldiers murdered millions of civilians. They apologized only for the Holocaust which is totally different.

Also, if you think that Germany is so great compared to Japan, you should come live here for a while and see how groups of dangerous Skinhead white supremacists burn down synagogues, firebomb Turkish schools and commit brutal acts of violence against blacks, Turks and Asians almost on a weekly basis..espcially in Berlin. It's gotten so bad in the past 4 years here that the German government and Tourist Bureau states in brochures that it is not safe for non-white tourists to walk around the city alone because of so many racial attacks. How many skinhead attacks are there against foreigners in Japan on a daily basis? Yeah, right.

If anything the most dangerous place for a foreigner to go in Asia is Korea. Already 3 Americans including one English teacher were stabbed to death by nationalistic lunatic racist Korean idiots in the past year.

Going back to the original topic that started this thread . . . it appears that we have additional confirmation that development of Japan's ATD-X fighter demonstrator will be delayed by at least a year, due to lack of budget:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...ing-crunch.html

The program is received only 7 billion yen ($43 million) last year, out of 49.9 billion yen requested. 2008 and 2009 are not expected to be any better. Unless something changes soon, this program is going to die a slow death as little more than a paper airplane. Once the F-35 enters full production, it is likely to seem even more irrelevent - at which point it will probably be cut for good.

When they figure out how to refine Gundanium.