islam isnt borrowed from judeo . islam is the same religion as judeo christian think of islam as windows vista and judeo christian as windows xp only think that microsoft wont be releasing any more operating systems after vista. it has all the updates it needs till the end of time.

in this case its very simple, nobody above the constituition, have to follow rules of law, so filed the case under syariah court and follow the procedures

with regards christian convert to islam
we muslim never go to house to house knocking the doors, violate our privacy, offering free food to malay teenagers on friday afternoon, take advantage on disable peoples or sick people i.e LJ which suffered PTD etc. if there are cases they converted to muslim which are their own decision, islam never force human to embrace islam.

"There shall be no coercion in matters of faith" (Al-Baqarah 2: 256).

this verse is one of many other verses that affirm the principle of free choice of belief.

it is inconceivable to attain that peace if a person is forced or coerced into becoming a Muslim or remaining a Muslim against his or her free will. It is also inconceivable to say, "Yes, no one is forced to become a Muslim, but once he or she accepts Islam willingly, it is forbidden to reject it. Such an argument under whatever excuse or justification is inconsistent with the many conclusive verses in the Qur'an on freedom of belief which is above all an inner feeling of acceptance and conviction.

every community in this world has basic foundations that are to be kept inviolable, such as identity, loyalty, and allegiance. Accordingly, no community accepts that a member thereof changes its identity or turns his or her loyalty to its enemies. They consider betrayal of one's country a serious crime, and no one has ever called for giving people a right to change their loyalty from a country to another whenever they like.

matter of law, and not that of religion.

What constitution are you talking about? If she wishes to give up her ethnic status and therefor Bumiputera privilidges, my understanding is that she can convert. And besides if the laws are wrong do you just accept them or do you fight for whats right. If it wasn't for people standing up for whats right, Malaysia would still be an absolute kingdom of different states. You as a Malaysian would have no say and no voice.


I agree that Christians shouldn't be allowed to coerce other people into Christianity, nor should any other religion be allowed to do this. You can always ban this if you wish, and appy this law fairly to every religion. Having said that, its very arrogant for you to say that Lina Joy is suffering from PTD and was taken advantage of during this time. If someone wants to give up Islam they have to be sick is it? No one will give up Islam if they are of sound mind and body? What evidence do you have that LJ is suffering from PTD? Are you a psychologist or read a report from a psychiatrist or psychologist confirming that she has PTD or is this some gossip that you've heard and chosen to believe. Even if she's suffering from PTD how do you know that this is a factor in her wanting to change religions?


Coersion is wrong but forcing someone to acccept a religion is ok?


But this is exactly what you are doing, Malaysia is forcing LJ to accept Islam. So based on what you are saying do you believe that LJ's case is wrong? That she should be allowed to convert if she wishes? LJ has never accepted Islam willingly, she was born into the faith and was made to accept it. At no point of time in her life did conciously accept Islam.


Yes treason affects every other person in that country, how does a person wanting to convert affect anybody else? Unless of course you believe that religion is about power, and power comes in numbers.

If religion becomes law like it has here, then it is a matter of religion.

^ with all due respect, naturally understand ur concerned as non muslim however, ur answers and standpoint was inconsistent and irrelevant from the outset of our discussion and most of ur argument based on hearsay and emotional opinion and furthermore u are not even near to the case compare to us as malaysian, lets us deal with it as malaysia's internal affair

hoping to discuss based on true fact not just speculate,re-write what has written and question on question

the tendency of modern, secular society is to sidestep theological differences so that we can all focus on “just being good people.” This is a consequence of the atheistic trends that have thoroughly integrated themselves into all levels of society. The proponents of such an attitude are, in effect, mocking people of religion, essentially saying, “Yes, yes, you’re free to believe in a ‘God,’ just don’t do it publicly and don’t think that your beliefs are Truth.”

ironically, the religious naysayers cite bloodshed in the name of religion as their historic proof for the excellence of unqualified religious pluralism, while the “secular” wars of the past two centuries have resulted in far more bloodshed and oppression than all “religious” wars that preceded them. In fact, absolute religious pluralism (as distinct from qualified pluralism that yields religious harmony without compromising a religion’s exclusive claim to Truth) is dismissed as ridiculous and illogical by the vast majority of humanity, while its chief proponents are often agnostics and other people with little or no religious practice in their daily lives. admittedly, there are many exceptions to these trends.

Islam is clear in its condemnation of apostasy, and I cannot sugarcoat this fact simply because it conflicts with your ideals. On the other hand, I urge you to reflect upon your initial shock and consider the logic of this ruling as we have discussed above. While I want nothing more than for every Christian in the world to become my brother and sister in Islam (including you), I nonetheless expect the teachings of Christianity to condemn those who leave the church for another religion.

Why? When you have no more salient points to make you bring out "You are not Malaysian leave us alone"

FYI My standpoint is very consistent, all religions should be treated equally. Your stand point is like "Animal Farm" ie all religions are created equal, just some are more equal then others. My belief is that above anything else religion teaches us No 1 respect and worship god No 2 treat all of your fellow man well, everything else is secondry.

You are the one using arguments based on religious emotion. Quick to attack both the Bible and Christianity, you're not looking for an intelectual debate, you're looking for a religious witchhunt, to hang Christians and Christianity and to "prove" that Islam is the one true religion. This is not the forum for it. There are many other religious forums for you to do that, where you and your like can pat each other on the back, comfort each other that you are going to heaven, and laugh at all the Christians who don't know any better.

You say that I use hearsay, well let me ask you, how do you know that LJ suffers from PTD? Do you know for a fact or is THIS hearsay?

This is so full of crap. I have said to you many times before, I don't care which religion anyone is from. For the record I belive all religions are good, they install good moral fibres to young people, teaching them things that will ensure they become good productive citizens for whichever community they are in. Religion gives hope to those who are dying that there is a better life for them on the other side. I couldn't care less if people practice their religion in public as long as it doesn't encrouch on the basic human rights of others.

For your information in both WW1 and WW2 both sides claimed that god way on their side, besides even if your argument was correct and that WW1 and WW2 were both "secular" wars. It still doesn't detract from the fact that in the past and present people are still kiling in the name of god and allah, however misguided they may be.

I have no ideals when it comes to apostasy, what I'm saying is that govnt should not interfere with religion, if it does, then whats good for the goose is good for the gander. If the govnt believes that apostasy is wrong fine ban Christians from converting to Islam as well, after all the bible says that for those who know God and then choose to reject him will definitely go to hell. Or is one religion more equal then others?

Oh and by the way guess where I found this

"The tendency of modern, secular society is to sidestep theological differences so that we can all focus on “just being good people.” This is a consequence of the atheistic trends that have thoroughly integrated themselves into all levels of society. The proponents of such an attitude are, in effect, mocking people of religion, essentially saying, “Yes, yes, you’re free to believe in a ‘God,’ just don’t do it publicly and don’t think that your beliefs are Truth.”

Ironically, the religious naysayers cite bloodshed in the name of religion as their historic proof for the excellence of unqualified religious pluralism, while the “secular” wars of the past two centuries have resulted in far more bloodshed and oppression than all “religious” wars that preceded them. In fact, absolute religious pluralism (as distinct from qualified pluralism that yields religious harmony without compromising a religion’s exclusive claim to Truth) is dismissed as ridiculous and illogical by the vast majority of humanity, while its chief proponents are often agnostics and other people with little or no religious practice in their daily lives. Admittedly, there are many exceptions to these trends.

In finishing, Islam is clear in its condemnation of apostasy, and I cannot sugarcoat this fact simply because it conflicts with your ideals. On the other hand, I urge you to reflect upon your initial shock and consider the logic of this ruling as we have discussed above. While I want nothing more than for every Christian in the world to become my brother and sister in Islam (including you), I nonetheless expect the teachings of Christianity to condemn those who leave the church for another religion"

here http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...FAskAboutIslamE

The least you can do is come up with your own arguments, if you can't, then at least credit the person whose words you're plagiarising.

u suggesting christians come knocking on your doors forcing malays to convert? i think u know this aint true. anyway, if ur faith in Islam is strong enough, why worry?

btw. there were cases of in Sabah where certain leaders (two ex-CMs) organised Mass Conversion Drives in the interior parts of the state to convert villagers into muslim. offering many privileges if they convert (eg: cash, house, land, datukship, etc). they managed to convert about 50,000 peeps into muslims. so do some research first.



ya, we have that rule also in the Bible. "accept Christ and u will be saved" (john 3:16). so if u reject him basically u wont be saved. so its between the person and God. why must have govt, constitution, etc in between?

Edit: i just realised AoLove was plagiarising. tak bleh pakai la lu..

All your arguments are just plagiarised from Islam on line. They are not necessarily wrong, but at least you could have acknowledged it.

Noor ad-Deen Ingalls

Staff writer and editor for IslamOnline.

He is an International Relations graduate from Tufts University.

Currently pursuing an MA in Arabic Language and Literature in Cairo, Egypt.

Born in the United States.

Embraced Islam in 1994.

He hopes to return to America and teach Arabic and Islamic studies.

I've just read this again. I can't believe that you would accuse me of hearsay, suggesting theat my arguments and opinion were "emotional" and to say that my argumets were "religious emotion" and I couldn't hold an intellectual argument when all along you were plagiarising other people work and from a religious web site on top of that. I'm sorry but to me you've just lost all credibility. When you have your own informed opinion then come back and we can have an intellectual discussion.

Lina Joy rocked the boat. Her loss, I would expect.

Get this straight, whether she liked it or not, & of course she realised this all along, becoming an apostate from Islam is a BIG NO!

We Malaysian Muslims have been tolerant enough. We tolerated newly converted Muslims who later re-embrace their original religions because of their disaffection with Islam way of life & we simply didn't take any action at all. There's ton of cases where newly converted Muslims returned back to their original religion & Muslim authorities turned a blind eye.

We're not like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or even Iran that punished apostates with death penalty.

But Lina Joy is born & bred Muslim. Fact is, she is also a Malay. By being both she knew the consequences when she renounced Islam no longer her religion. For Malay-Muslim apostate, they know they are going to face discrimination not only from Govt., but from society as well, including non-Muslims. Non-Muslims in Malaysia know well enough not to get involved with Malay-Muslims apostates, for they will gain nothing from Muslim Malay.

Religious issues is sensitive. Insensitivity about this can plunge us into inter religious riots that can destabilised Malaysia.

My best advice, to Lina Joy, packed your bags, & migrated to any foreign countries. Do not ever returned to Malaysia. You know the consequences regarding your action damn well, so live with it. In Malaysia, you can't win. Accept that, moved on.

Yes she rocked the boat, if it wasn't for people who rocked the boat through history, Malaysia would still be a collection Sultunates with the Sultan having absolute rule. If you think this is good look at all the countries with absolute rulers and tell me how many of them the citizens are happy.
Contrary to what you are saying non Muslims would not and do not discriminate against her because of this.
If by her actions there ends up being religious conflicts it is not her fault. Who are those who are threathening to kill her and her Muslim lawyer. If they start a religious conflict, then it is their fault. Religiuon is a sensitive issue I agree but it only seems that the sensitivities that we must not step on in Malaysia are Muslims, eveybody else it doesn't matter.

In every Christian dominated country Muslims enjoy the same rights as non Muslims eventhough the bible specifically states that it is wrong for Christians to leave Christianity. Why not in Muslim dominated countries?

How many Muslim nations have significant non-Muslims populations, apart from Malaysia? Safe to say, almost none, apart from Bosnia, but look at the previous massacre over the last decade, so Bosnia is out.

Malaysia is a moderate Muslim nation, not a liberal one, hardly a conservative one. Which we should be thankful, moreso the non-Muslim population. We do not forcefully converted non-Muslims, nor evicted 'em for their beliefs. Its just that, for Muslims, its a different ballgame.

You say that Lina Joy will not be discriminated by non-Muslim population ... well you're 1/4 right. Ever wonder why quite a few Muslim-Malay apostates chose to go overseas? Chinese have business with Malays, should they conducted business with a known Muslim-Malay apostate, then he will lose his Malay clients. Chinese are opportunistic, they're not going to risk existing & potential profits for a Muslim Malay apostate. Such is the environment in Malaysia.

Lina Joy knows this well. There have been a few Muslim-Malay apostasy cases which rocked the nation, but most were swept under the rug because the said apostates simply packed up, & lived outside Malaysia.

Her case is sensitive. Sensitive enough should it is being intyerfered by unwanted parties can caused instability in Malaysia. Sensitively enough should it being mishandled professionally could spark internal discord. Thank God the case was solved. Now, Lina Joy have the ball in her court. The best course of action is to follow the footsteps of her fellow Malay-Muslims apostates. Leave Malaysia. For good.

Singapore is a good example of how people of different religions live happily together. Malaysia may be the best in this category but its scant consolation when such a large proportion of the population is dissatisfied.


Its interesting that you mention that non Muslim Malaysians should be greatful for being treated as second class citizens. It seems to me that you openly admit that Islam is special and deserves special treatment regardless of other religions. If this is your opinion, there will never be peace in Malaysia.


First of all you can't even proof that this will happen, secondly even if it did the discrimination is still from the Muslims. Name me one example that you know of of a Chinese being oppertunistic in this case and discriminating against LJ. You have no evidence of Chinese being oppertunistic. Chinese also often stand up for what they believe. The problem in Malaysia is that if they speak out against the practitioners of Islam or the NEP they are often shouted down and told to shut up, even in parliament.


Why should they have to leave Malaysia just to practice their choice of religion? Would you be happy if you had to leave Malaysia just to practice Islam, or are you still saying that Islam is special. Imagine if Malaysia was a Christian country and you were barred from converting to Islam eventhough you felt Islam was the right religion. Would you leave quietly, or would you fight. Or does this not matter because Islam is better then all the other religions?


Her case is sensitive I agree but I'm not sure which unwanted party interference you are talling about. At the moment by law only Islam has rights, is this fair?

SG cannot be compared with MY. SG is not even a Muslim nation, with Muslim majority.

We're not talking about non-Muslim treatment here. We're talking about Muslim-Malay apostates. There had yet to be any unrest regarding religious tension in MY. We'll manage those cases our way, which hadn't hurt non-Muslims at all. Islam will of course received special treatment in MY. Its our official religion, the the religion of the majority in MY. Why harped on that, even non-Muslims in Malaysia know this fact eversince 50 years of Independence.

swingdoc... some peoples are just in denial mode when it come to something that is at their favour....
they know it clearly in their heart.... this is not fair system but they just dun wan to acknowledge it....

at least SG doesn't have law to prohibit other religion from leaving their religion... for example... leave buddhist to join islam? toking about sg.. yes, u cant compare with them... cos msia will be made laughing stock....

I have Chinese friends who watched closely her case. They've the same opinion with me, she should have quietly packed up & leave the nation. There's always SG next door or Australia down under. There's where she should headed like a few Muslim Malay apostates. Heck, in Australia, there are support group who'll be willing to help her adjust there.

We Muslims never stopped non-Muslims from carrying out their faith or even propagate their faith to others, as long the propagation are not directed to Muslims, & there's laws against such practice. Non Muslims know these, & lived without any trouble in MY.

Sure, there are hiccups, but not much to threathen the social fabric in MY.

Islam is special. It is enshrined in the Constitution, along with the special rights of Malays. This is a social contract agreed upon during Independence by founding fathers of Malaysia. So we abide by that.

I'm not saying Islam is better that any other religion, but as mentioned above, Islam deserved a special place in Mlaysia because it is a dominant religion even during colonial times & has been recognised as official religion of Malaysia. However, the right of non-Muslims openly practiced their religions are not barred, but as for born-Muslims, they're under Sharia laws. We lived with that, we abide by that.

Prophet Muhammad himself & his followers had to migrate to Medina when the hostile Meccans opposed Islam openly & persecuted early Muslims. Some of his followers sought protection in the Christian African kingdom of Abyssinia.

There are some, most notably, international NGOs who don't even have a clue of how MY system of governance works.

Non-Muslims have rights, which is covered by Civil Courts.

There no such thing as being totally fair ... even SG have flaws in their system, but we do not need to harp on that. No system of governance in the world are totally fair, even in the US of A!

You get it wrong here .... currently, MY certainly aren't being fair to Muslim Malay leaving their religion, but we don't give a hoot to a MY Chinese Buddhist converting to Christianity.

Meanwhile, what's this got do to do with you Maldini? Are your religious rights trampled in MY? Or you just don't have anything better to post?

nice excuses.... so, u accept that the system is not fair?

what wrong do i get? i just highlight the unfairness and u ACKNOWLEDGED that... end of story.

well, i cant post if i am not one of LINA case? which rule prohibit me from posting? you must be a joker isn't it?
but yes, i am one of the victim of malaysia favourism on BUMI right... but now i am thankful to msia government for it...
it made me stronger and better....

Yes, but Singapore is a country with a large Muslim population. Should it be any different? If you use the argument that Singapore is diffent than Malaysia, then the conclusion to that, is that there is no country in the world, where the population is happy when there is a multireligious country where Islam is the majority.

You cannot isolate Sharia law to Muslims. What about LJ's fiancee, should he have to choose between marrying her and his religion. I have relatives who are the product of mixed marriages. Their parent changed religion in name only. The kids have grown up with both religions and have made a choice that they want to practice Chriatianity but by law they can't. What about if there's conflict between Islam and Christianity, the case would go to the Sharia court because it is a religious matter, who do you think the court will favour? So don't tell me that non Muslims are not affected.

Why should they have to leave Malaysia. Why should Australia, Singapore or any other country accept them? If you think that non Muslims are happy with the situation in Malaysia, you are sadly mistaken. If your friends are not religious, maybe they don't care, why not ask then about the NEP?

Islam is enshrined in the constitution as the official religion, it is NOT the state religion, there is a difference, so according to the constitution, Islam is not special and does not deserve special previlidges. If they wanted it to have special previdliges, they would have enshrined it as the state religion, when infact they were at pains NOT to elect a state religion. Its people currently that take it the next step to give Islam rights as a state religion when it is only an official religion.

Maybe they understand Malaysia more then you think.

It ain't excuses, but a fact. What's your problem anyway, are you a Muslim Malay apostate in question here?

So it made you stronger and better, good for you. FYI, I'm a Bumi who do not received any special treatment from Govt. (given I spent my studies & work in private sector), but I got no complaint to Govt.

In what way do Lina's case affected you? The thread specifically & the case is about Muslim- Malay apostate, not other non-Muslims whose religious rights are guaranteed. If you find nothing constructive to post, then don't. Atleast Swingdoc argued his case, but you contribute nothing to the thread.

No you can't. Islam is not even an official religion there. Muslims are not even a majority.

Malaysia tried to be moderate without being to overtly liberal or deeply conservative. To fall into liberal-ways will only put us for instability due to overinfusing of Western cultures that certainly most do not jived with Islamic way of life. To fall into conservative pit also will caused instability due to thr rights of non-Muslims & of course, path to extremism.

So we choose a middle line, moderation. We have to walk to the fine line. Stability is a key to Malaysia survival, to keep both Muslims & non-Muslims population in check.

Well, it is a state religion in most Malaysian states. Islam is special in Malaysia, not even non-Muslims questioned that ... a simple equation, the Azan (call to prayer) that sprang 5 times a day every year from EVERY mosque, radios, televisions - private or government-owned.

Islam is instrumental so much so that political parties accommodate Islam as part of their tactics to win votes (PAS & UMNO notwithstanding).

You don't get a clear picture do you?

There are reasons why sensitive issues like apostasy are mostly kept mum. Like I said earlier, apsotasy cases involving newly converted Muslims who later returned to their original faith are being ignored by Religious Authorities because if such cases were to be held, the non-Muslims will be in uproar, as these apostates are mostly Chinese, Indians & other non-Muslim Bumis. This will caused instability. As such, MY Govt. had to simply turned a blind eye to these cases.

As for Muslim-Malay apostates, that is a different ballgame. If one Muslim-Malay become apostate, & he/she wins her case in a Civil Court, not even Sharia, that would simply go against the Constitution that implicitly stated all Muslim-Malay cases are under Sharia. Not only that, if apostasy amongst Muslim-Malay is allowed, the Muslim society will feel they're under siege even by the state, thus allowing member from Muslim communities to perceive open proselytisation from other religions are also targeted Muslims. This will caused instability. This will caused deep rift & distrust of Muslim society towards non-Muslims. This will ultimately led to tensions, & even riots. This is what Malaysia cannot afford to have.

How does the decision go against our Constitution? The constitution didnt say all "Malays" are to be tried under syariah court, instead they use the word "Muslim Malay" isnt it? Doesnt this suggest or allow for cases where there might be, eg "Hindu Malays"?

There are no such things as Hindu Malay in MY. Malay by Malaysian definition is someone who are born Malay, speak Malay, culturally Malay & professed Islam (yes, I know that definition is skewed).

u din received any special treatment? u sure? lol...
anyway, we are talking about overall and not only individual...
You have been trying to defend it blindly, that's why i m here and i already made myself very clear... you accepted that the system is not fair... end of story
so, why argue anymore?

Islam is not a state religion in any state af far as I'm aware. An Islamic political party have won elections in various states and have enacted laws regarding Muslims but by definition they are still not Islamic states. Call to prayer is not an indication of anything.

Yes I agree in Malaysia, Islam is political, and as such subject to the issues regarding politics. The question is that should it be?

I get a very clear picture. What you're saying is that in Malaysia if you're prepared to be violent, the govnt should appease you. In order to prevent "instability".
In my opinion so what if there is uproar, the govnt protects the rights of individuals, not the rights of groups of individuals. I don't have a problem with prohibiting non Muslims from actively trying to convert Muslims. But I believe very strongly in a persons right to choose their own religion. If there is an uproar or riots, why doesn't the govnt crack down on the rioters? I have never seen the govnt prosecute anyone over major riots.


I've glanced through the Constitution, I have not seen where its written that a Malay has to be Muslim, does anyone know where this is written?

So what you are saying is that in todays world in a multi religious society where Muslims are the larger majority, significant religious issues exist. Something then needs to be learnt from here isn't it? The truth is that if Muslims want to live peacefully and happily next to other religions, they need to learn to treat all other religions fairly and equally. This is the reality of the modern world.


I'm not saying that changes need to be enacted overnight. These changes will take time. However at this point in time, the mindset among Muslims and the govnt in Malaysia is for a more conservative Muslim society. In the last few years Malaysia has become more conservative then liberal when the reality is that it needs to become more liberal and you don't need to adopt Western cultures to become liberal. My parents Mulims friends are being pressured by other Muslims into wearing the headscarf when in the past it was never an issue and nobody else cared if you wore a headscarf or not, eventhough the headscarf is cultural and not religious.

Yes I do. I haven't received Govt. grants, nor assistance. Hell, I damn proud of it not to rely to affirmative action policy that favored Bumis.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, but you just chipped in without giving constructive idea to the thread, just adding fire to the fuel.

Look again ... Islam is a state religion for Perlis, Kelantan, Terengganu, Kedah, Johor, Malacca, Pahang, Perak, N. Sembilan. Only East Malaysian states falls short of declaring it as state religion due to large numbers of non-Muslim Bumis.

Every States in Malaysia have their version of Islamic laws which differed from Federal Sharia Laws in certain matters, that's why the Federal Govt' is working hard to streamline the Sharia laws into one cohesive legal structure.

Islam will hold as part of Muslim Malay & other non-Malay Muslim majority. MY may not be the ideal democratic society, but instead, a framework suitable for nation with Muslims majority & significant non-Muslim minorities which tolerated each other. We may have flaws, but that to be expected with any governing system in the world.

That is state definition. Even PAS challenged that, saying Islam is not exclusive to Malays only, but other races too. (I agreed with PAS on this)

But then, that's a leftover legacy from colonial era. Something even the current Administration never bothered to change.

Sigh ....

^I do think that defination used long before MY got independent from British, even maybe since Malacca Sultanate era?? saying that people who become a Muslim also become a Malays at least in Malaysia environtment. And when the want to write the constitutions, at that times all Malays were muslim and no strict defination about what Malays really are.

i jump in not blindly... it is because u have been trying hard to defend it blindly... thats y i m here.
constructive idea? do u buy it when we said need to be fair to other? you dun... except keep defending it blindly over and over again...

^Maldini always jump blindly :lol:

Islam is NOT the state religion in the states you mentioned above. A state religion is like Saudi Arabia. For it to be a state religion it would have to be in the constitution. In Malaysia those states have given special privilidiges to Muslims but its still not a state religion. Besides if those state govnts have choosen to make Islam the "state" religion, is it right? Will the rights of non Muslims be protected? You have said that Sharia laws don't affect non Muslims, but I have shown you that it does. How will the rights of non Muslims be protected?

Again you are mistaken, what makes you so sure that the non Muslim minorities will tolerate the status qou? The flaws in the current system in Malaysia are discriminatory and more importantly deliberate, these "mistakes" are not the result of some negligent beaurocrat, they are systemic.

Again to fine a harmonious society where significant numbers of people of different religions live together peacefully, one just has to look South of the border.