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Full Version: PRC no match for Japan's military: Report
Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Asian Culture > Japanese Chat > Japanese Serious Talk
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BigBenChow
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 27 2008, 07:36 AM) [snapback]3527568[/snapback]
First off, the article title “PRC is no match for Japan’s military” is the viewpoint of the author, not my opinion. I merely posted the article. I never said that the PRC is no match for Japan’s military.
The Kongou Aegis DDGs are Japan’s, the PAC-3s are Japan’s, the SM-3s are Japan’s, the FPS-XX long range radars are Japan’s, why do you think Tokyo can’t defend itself from nuclear attack?


The upgraded DF-31A is said to have a range of 10,000~11,000km, enabling it to cover most targets in the United States. The missile is said to be capable of deliver 3~5 multiple independently-targeted re-entry vehicles (MIRVs), each with 20, 90 or 150kT yield. It is also possibly equipped with penetration aids such as decoys and flares to complicate enemy missile warning and defence.

I doubt the PAC can have a 100% hit rate.
How does the PAC verify which missile is armed with a conventional or armed with a nuclear warhead?

Even without nuclear weapons, how does Japan counter attack and WIN without any offensive capabilities? Surely there has to be some if the JSDF is to come ontop of the PRC, like the author suggests.


QUOTE
And this is what I’ve been trying to tell you all along: It is unlikely that China would have a situation where Japan not only 1) does not have nuclear weapons or a large military, but also 2) does not have the US as an ally. If the US were to withdraw from support of Japan, this would likely be a process of 5-10 years, during which time it would be obvious to Tokyo that greater military increases were necessary. Without nukes, Japan would be highly vulnerable – you think Tokyo doesn’t know that?


this proves that your article you just posted is utter garbage, and this is what I've been trying to tell you all along. The fact is, current JSDF is still under the protective umbrella of the USA. So how does the author of the article claim "PRC no match for JAPANESE military"

QUOTE
So in your “US is not involved” scenario, Japan would well possibly have nukes – or even if not, would at least have a much more beefed-up military. You get what I mean? I’ve repeated this several times.


The article makes its bold claims arguing between current Japanese military vs Chinese military.
NOT Possibly Beefed up Japanese military vs Chinese military
NOT Japanese - Amercan military vs Chinese military

QUOTE
As far as I know, the PRC has never threatened the use of nukes against Taiwan. Oh, and FYI, Taiwan did have a nuclear-weapons program in the 1980s, so it’s not like Taiwan has never wanted to have nukes at all. The incentive is still there.


The PRC has always threatened to use nukes.,..one PRC general made it clear when he said China was willing to sacrafice everything east of Xian.
Red Fox Ace
QUOTE(BigBenChow @ Feb 27 2008, 01:14 AM) [snapback]3528536[/snapback]
The PRC has always threatened to use nukes.,..one PRC general made it clear when he said China was willing to sacrafice everything east of Xian.


The general was threatening to use nukes against the United States, not against Taiwan.

QUOTE(BigBenChow @ Feb 27 2008, 01:14 AM) [snapback]3528536[/snapback]
I doubt the PAC can have a 100% hit rate.
How does the PAC verify which missile is armed with a conventional or armed with a nuclear warhead?


The main burden of Japanese missile defense falls to SM-3, which has a far greater engagement envelope. Of course no system is 100%, that’s why you have multi-layered defenses for stacked protection, with SM-3 being long-range, PAC-3 being close range, and possibly THAAD in the middle.
Red Fox Ace
QUOTE(BigBenChow @ Feb 27 2008, 01:14 AM) [snapback]3528536[/snapback]
The article makes its bold claims arguing between current Japanese military vs Chinese military.



Let's compare down some categories.


Air-to-air:

Japan: F-15J, F-1 and F-2, with E-767 and E-2 Hawkeye AWACS and KC-767
China: J-10, Su-27/J-11, various fighters with KJ-2000 AWACS and H-6 tankers


Surface combatants:

Japan: Combatant types - Kongou Aegis, Atago, Hatakaze, Murasame, Asagiri, Takanami, Hatsuyuki, Abukuma, 16DDH (carrier)
China: Combatant types - Hangzhou, Jiangwei, Jiangkai, Jianghu, Luhai, Luhu, Luyang, Luda, Varyag (carrier)


Submarines:

Japan: Combatant types - Harushio, Oyashio, Soryu
China: Combatant types - Ming, Song, Kilo, Yuan, Jin, Shang, Han


Naval air support:

Japan: P-3 Orion, P-1
China: SH-5, Y-8
BigBenChow
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 28 2008, 02:51 AM) [snapback]3529275[/snapback]
Let's compare down some categories.
Air-to-air:

Japan: F-15J, F-1 and F-2, with E-767 and E-2 Hawkeye AWACS and KC-767
China: J-10, Su-27/J-11, various fighters with KJ-2000 AWACS and H-6 tankers
Surface combatants:

Japan: Combatant types - Kongou Aegis, Atago, Hatakaze, Murasame, Asagiri, Takanami, Hatsuyuki, Abukuma, 16DDH (carrier)
China: Combatant types - Hangzhou, Jiangwei, Jiangkai, Jianghu, Luhai, Luhu, Luyang, Luda, Varyag (carrier)
Submarines:

Japan: Combatant types - Harushio, Oyashio, Soryu
China: Combatant types - Ming, Song, Kilo, Yuan, Jin, Shang, Han
Naval air support:

Japan: P-3 Orion, P-1
China: SH-5, Y-8


Where are the nuclear warheads you failed to mention? Why must you, leave out the nukes? Do you compare a computer's specs by leaving out something that has obvious advantage over the other? If you want to start a thread to compare the two, don't leave out some and include something else? Why must you pick and choose?

QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 28 2008, 02:34 AM) [snapback]3529249[/snapback]
The general was threatening to use nukes against the United States, not against Taiwan.


And where might you think the conflict will take place? On continental USA?

QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 28 2008, 02:34 AM) [snapback]3529249[/snapback]
The general was threatening to use nukes against the United States, not against Taiwan.
The main burden of Japanese missile defense falls to SM-3, which has a far greater engagement envelope. Of course no system is 100%, that’s why you have multi-layered defenses for stacked protection, with SM-3 being long-range, PAC-3 being close range, and possibly THAAD in the middle.


Israel is considered to be the world leader in missile defense. You can ask them if missile defense will stop all of it or not. The point is....you are correct, "no system is 100%".

Tell me where exactly are THAAD platforms located on Japan? And no, you can't use your time machine to go to the year 2010 and take pictures for us.
Red Fox Ace
QUOTE(BigBenChow @ Feb 27 2008, 05:25 PM) [snapback]3529823[/snapback]
And where might you think the conflict will take place? On continental USA?


The nuclear exchange, if there is one, would involve the continental USA, if you take the PLA general’s threat seriously.

QUOTE(BigBenChow @ Feb 27 2008, 05:25 PM) [snapback]3529823[/snapback]
The point is....you are correct, "no system is 100%".


Your point? You might as well say that China’s ICBMs are useless because there is a 1% possibility that they will fail or malfunction on the launching pad. Look, just because something isn’t 100% doesn’t mean it’s useless. Otherwise everything in the world is useless.
SkyLegenD
Taipei Times is the worst piece of crap newspaper ever created. I wouldn't even wipe my @$$ with it. These sub-human organisms need to just shut the fu-k up and move to Japan before the PRC bombs them.
BigBenChow
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 28 2008, 07:50 AM) [snapback]3529856[/snapback]
The nuclear exchange, if there is one, would involve the continental USA, if you take the PLA general’s threat seriously.


Again I remind you. This article is comparing CHINESE vs JAPANESE military capabilities. NOT Chinese vs Japanese US alliance.

QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 28 2008, 07:50 AM) [snapback]3529856[/snapback]
Your point? You might as well say that China’s ICBMs are useless because there is a 1% possibility that they will fail or malfunction on the launching pad. Look, just because something isn’t 100% doesn’t mean it’s useless. Otherwise everything in the world is useless.


You don't have to be an arms expert to know that defense systems are vastly more complicated then an offensive weapon. Such as a Chinese ICBM with multiple warheads + decoys.

Look at THAAD. How many hits and misses?
BigBenChow
QUOTE(SkyLegenD @ Feb 28 2008, 09:46 AM) [snapback]3530047[/snapback]
Taipei Times is the worst piece of crap newspaper ever created. I wouldn't even wipe my @$$ with it. These sub-human organisms need to just shut the fu-k up and move to Japan before the PRC bombs them.


Its an opinion piece from Taipei Times. Don't take it so seriously.
lonesoul
Is our true meaning of existence is to annihilate one another? Why can't we all get along? Why do we always have to compare who's got the bigger d!ck?

/me sings Imagine
furball
OK, Japan's military is SUPERIOR to China's.

Then why the f*ck is Japan crying over the inferior Chinese military, when in fact the Japanese military are is the BIGGEST @$$hole in all of Asia!
WDevil
This is just a self promoting Japanese-Taiwanese fantasy. It is written by a self hating Taiwanese who want to be Japanese. Why is this page 21 pages long of some joker who wrote an article to give hope to Taiwanese rebels?
asuras
if japan gets nuclear weapons then its all over i guess laugh.gif
kludge
QUOTE
if japan gets nuclear weapons then its all over i guess laugh.gif


Will they be tall enough to reach the red button?

ROFL

JK JK JK JK
starbounce
That is the most horribly written article I have ever read in my life.

What kind of reporting is this?

"Last but not least, with the strengthening of the US-Japanese military alliance, I don't believe China would dare attack Taiwan."

You're not a military expert so why the fu-k does your opinion matter?
michinobu_zoned
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 26 2008, 06:36 PM) [snapback]3527568[/snapback]
First off, the article title “PRC is no match for Japan’s military” is the viewpoint of the author, not my opinion. I merely posted the article. I never said that the PRC is no match for Japan’s military.
The Kongou Aegis DDGs are Japan’s, the PAC-3s are Japan’s, the SM-3s are Japan’s, the FPS-XX long range radars are Japan’s, why do you think Tokyo can’t defend itself from nuclear attack?
And this is what I’ve been trying to tell you all along: It is unlikely that China would have a situation where Japan not only 1) does not have nuclear weapons or a large military, but also 2) does not have the US as an ally. If the US were to withdraw from support of Japan, this would likely be a process of 5-10 years, during which time it would be obvious to Tokyo that greater military increases were necessary. Without nukes, Japan would be highly vulnerable – you think Tokyo doesn’t know that?

Yeah, I think that despite Japan's amicable nature in foreign affairs, if they realized that they were on their own they'd say "fu-k the UN and fu-k the NPT!" and go nuclear.
The only reason why nations even agree to such a treaty is with the idea that by signing the treaty, the rest of the world will have their backs.
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 26 2008, 06:36 PM) [snapback]3527568[/snapback]
So in your “US is not involved” scenario, Japan would well possibly have nukes – or even if not, would at least have a much more beefed-up military. You get what I mean? I’ve repeated this several times.
As far as I know, the PRC has never threatened the use of nukes against Taiwan. Oh, and FYI, Taiwan did have a nuclear-weapons program in the 1980s, so it’s not like Taiwan has never wanted to have nukes at all. The incentive is still there.

Yeah, since Taiwan is legally apart of China, couldn't it also legally pursue a nuclear weapons program of its own? I don't know if the UN would do anything about it, as technically it's an "internal" issue with China and not an international one.
Red Fox Ace
QUOTE(michinobu_zoned @ Jun 10 2008, 11:34 PM) [snapback]3748968[/snapback]
Yeah, since Taiwan is legally a part of China, couldn't it also legally pursue a nuclear weapons program of its own?


Or actually, if Beijing insists that Taiwan is not a country, doesn't that mean that Taiwan wouldn't need to sign any of those nuclear weapons or chem/bio treaties?
michinobu_zoned
QUOTE
However, Hyodo Nisohachi, a Japanese military expert, has pointed out that Chinese submarines make a lot of noise, making it easy to detect their position. Chinese submarines can dive down to 300m and make a rapid emergency dive to 600m, while Japan's and the US' submarines reportedly can dive to 800m and in an emergency dive down to 1,100m.
Of course, I can't argue against whether or not it's "easy" to detect noisy subs, but I can argue if it's significantly less challenging to detect them because they're noisy since we don't track subs by placing our ears against the ocean's surface and listen for submarine noise.

However, the increased ease of detection due to noise and deeper diving capabilities isn't enough to prove if all of Japan's subs can actually drive away all of China's subs in case of attack considering China's outnumbers them and Japan still doesn't have nuclear powered ones.

QUOTE(starbounce @ May 13 2008, 08:13 AM) [snapback]3694207[/snapback]
"Last but not least, with the strengthening of the US-Japanese military alliance, I don't believe China would dare attack Taiwan."
You're not a military expert so why the fu-k does your opinion matter?
I agree, I don't think it's that well written. Why would a journalist (even one writing an editorial) would write their own opinion in their article? I guess they could be an opinion journalist, but he would need some credentials before anyone would care about what he had to say on that subject.
But, I don't think it's a military issue if China would attack so much a political one. Military only works as a tool for diplomacy in this situation, but Japan's military isn't so weak that China would just try to invade so easily. Also, the combined forces of Japan and the US's Pacific military installations, coupled with their alliance, are enough to deter China from invading. The fact that they haven't yet only proves that the PLA isn't strong enough for the CCP to send them over to Taiwan and disregard how the rest of the world thinks.
With China's current economic situation, they may never be strong enough to invade anyone, ever. Even if they outdo the US in terms of size of economy and even average salary (the latter being likely to be very far into the future), it seems to me that because of the way nations depend so much on trade for economic growth that they could never invade Taiwan for fear of economic backlash from the world community.

QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Jun 11 2008, 12:51 AM) [snapback]3749011[/snapback]
Or actually, if Beijing insists that Taiwan is not a country, doesn't that mean that Taiwan wouldn't need to sign any of those nuclear weapons or chem/bio treaties?
I guess, so. I think that pretty much repeats the meaning of my statement, but if Beijing insists that Taiwan is apart of the PRC then all the rights granted to the PRC are inherently theirs as well.
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Feb 27 2008, 01:34 PM) [snapback]3529249[/snapback]
The general was threatening to use nukes against the United States, not against Taiwan.

Yeah, it kind of defeats the purpose of sending troops into a "rebel" state to regain control if you nuke it. I guess if your feelings are hurt after the initial defeat, you might nuke it so that not even the Taiwanese can have Taiwan but it only shows you're pussy by doing that. Like if some guy loses a fist-fight and due to hurt feelings pulls out a gun to kill his opponent.



But, I don't know why you people take this article so seriously, are hurt so easily, and are so ready to attack "Red Fox Ace" for it. He's just posting it here for starting this debate, it isn't necessarily true or an attack on anyone personally.

Honestly, I think Japan is more advanced than China, so they'll have more advanced weapons. They might not have numbers like China, but Japan only needs so much to defend itself. Maybe some CCP supporters fantasize about a day where they could reverse the situation of WW2, but the past is gone and many of the victims of WW2 aren't even alive to receive justice anymore.

For both nation's sake, it's best they get along. Yet, Japan still needs to maintain a strong self-defense force and not Sinocize themselves for the sake of some "Asian brotherhood". Allying with the US was initially the mixed result of defeat to the US and the fear of Russia getting her revenge for defeat in the Japanese-Russian war. The Cold War gave Japan incentive to strengthen its alliance with the US and to create the JSDF. Now angry flag-eating Japan-haters continue to motivate Japan to strengthen militarily.
michinobu_zoned
.
BigBenChow
QUOTE(Red Fox Ace @ Jun 11 2008, 01:51 PM) [snapback]3749011[/snapback]
Or actually, if Beijing insists that Taiwan is not a country, doesn't that mean that Taiwan wouldn't need to sign any of those nuclear weapons or chem/bio treaties?


Maybe. Tell your leaders to not sign it. Maybe tell them not to apply for the UN anymore while your at it.
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